Originally posted by: SagaLore
Cool site, but I stopped reading after this:
Q: Did Bill Clinton pass up a chance to kill Osama bin Laden?
A: Probably not
The article instantly starts off with speculation.
If you won't read more than the title of an article I can't help you. They present the issue as slightly grey because they are making an honest assessment of the information available, this is in marked contrast to the two articles you linked.
The most important part of it was that the nonpartisan 9/11 commission determined that Clinton did not have a chance to get Bin Laden then.
EDIT: Oh, and the very next phrase after where you 'stopped reading' was "and it would not have mattered anyway". How did you manage to stop reading so completely that you didn't notice that?
Lemon law
Lifer
- Nov 6, 2005
- 20,984
- 3
- 0
We have two basic and testable hypotheses in the one basic short sentence of " Bush was not a bad guy, It was his administration running things behind his back." And hence, each of the two premises are somewhat both stand alone premises, and then also need to be tested as the interaction between the two. So we have a two by two decision matrix with 4 outcome boxes.
1. GWB, by himself, may not have become a bad guy. And may have become some Joe sixpack living on his daddies inherited money, lacking the intelligence to contribute to society, and wallowing in ignorance.
And after living a life of sloth, drunkeness, and drugs, he met this wonderful girl, became a born again christian, and instead of being a drunken son of bitch, became a mere son of a bitch. Who wants to have a beer with a boorish teetotaler?
2. The premise that the team GWB took to Washington were totally morally bankrupt nuts with special interests agenda's is a slam dunk. People like Karl Rove, Dick Cheney, Donald Rumsfeld, Condi Rice, and so many others, sadly people of great ability with a lust for power and in love with their untried theories. And so convinced that their theories were correct, that they could ignore the suffering its brought to many millions as the ends they wanted justified any means.
3. The premise that GWB was still a good man but was corrupted by others around him is dubious at best. GWB took seeming delight at getting his way and having absolute power. His way at getting back at those smarter than he was, GWB is simply a bully at heart.
4. Only in the last square is any redemption, had GWB not surrounded himself with really bad advisers was it possible for his administration to be better than the complete disaster it became. GWB did not, he unerring allowed himself or others to choose the worst of the worst, and that is the way history will almost certainly call it.
1. GWB, by himself, may not have become a bad guy. And may have become some Joe sixpack living on his daddies inherited money, lacking the intelligence to contribute to society, and wallowing in ignorance.
And after living a life of sloth, drunkeness, and drugs, he met this wonderful girl, became a born again christian, and instead of being a drunken son of bitch, became a mere son of a bitch. Who wants to have a beer with a boorish teetotaler?
2. The premise that the team GWB took to Washington were totally morally bankrupt nuts with special interests agenda's is a slam dunk. People like Karl Rove, Dick Cheney, Donald Rumsfeld, Condi Rice, and so many others, sadly people of great ability with a lust for power and in love with their untried theories. And so convinced that their theories were correct, that they could ignore the suffering its brought to many millions as the ends they wanted justified any means.
3. The premise that GWB was still a good man but was corrupted by others around him is dubious at best. GWB took seeming delight at getting his way and having absolute power. His way at getting back at those smarter than he was, GWB is simply a bully at heart.
4. Only in the last square is any redemption, had GWB not surrounded himself with really bad advisers was it possible for his administration to be better than the complete disaster it became. GWB did not, he unerring allowed himself or others to choose the worst of the worst, and that is the way history will almost certainly call it.
techs
Lifer
- Sep 26, 2000
- 28,559
- 4
- 0
Uh, maybe you misunderstood. I am not talking about anything he did as President. By the time he went into Afghanistan he had already sowed the seeds of his failed Presidency.Originally posted by: SagaLore
That's the only reason I started this thread, because I sympathize.
GroundedSailor
Platinum Member
- Feb 18, 2001
- 2,502
- 0
- 76
Originally posted by: SagaLore
That's the only reason I started this thread, because I sympathize.
He should have stopped at many things. Where should I start? Iraq war? Civil liberties? Guantanamo? Torture? Appointments based on loyalty without consideration of merit? Deficits? Giveways to corporations? Tax cuts at a time of war? Isolating US in world opinion? I could go on and on.
This man came with a narrow minded agenda and, sadly for the US, succeeded to a large extent. It is going to take a long time, money & effort to undo the long term damage he has inflicted on this country, whether directly or through his minions. He's the 'decider' remember?
I wish there was a collective time machine and we could erase his presidency.
Originally posted by: techs
Originally posted by: SagaLore
Yes true. Okay I lose, I tried.
Now if you wanted to start a thread on whether Bush is a tragic figure, I would go along with you.
Despite my feelings about his Presidency, I genuinely feel sorry for him.
I tried to feel sorry for him---on so many levels, it just seemed that he was lucky enough to become an influential figure and unlucky enough to be outclassed and then blamed.
The problem is, though, that the man doesn't seem to show a shred of remorse. I want to hear him say, "...y'know... in retrospect, I probably really shouldn't have done that. That wasn't the right call." He just keeps plowing forward, never looking back.
I can't feel sorry for a person who doesn't feel bad in the first place and who doesn't have to personally face the repercussions of his actions. Now, if he went to jail, then I'd feel sorry for him. Maybe.
Originally posted by: ruu
Originally posted by: techs
Originally posted by: SagaLore
Yes true. Okay I lose, I tried.
Now if you wanted to start a thread on whether Bush is a tragic figure, I would go along with you.
Despite my feelings about his Presidency, I genuinely feel sorry for him.
I tried to feel sorry for him---on so many levels, it just seemed that he was lucky enough to become an influential figure and unlucky enough to be outclassed and then blamed.
The problem is, though, that the man doesn't seem to show a shred of remorse. I want to hear him say, "...y'know... in retrospect, I probably really shouldn't have done that. That wasn't the right call." He just keeps plowing forward, never looking back.
I can't feel sorry for a person who doesn't feel bad in the first place and who doesn't have to personally face the repercussions of his actions. Now, if he went to jail, then I'd feel sorry for him. Maybe.
Hehe, ain't it da truuuuuuuuuuuuth!
Let me be the first to say that you SagaLore are an absolute moron and furthermore you should do the world a favor and never procreate. I say this after having just read a thread where someone legitimately thought Obama might be the Anti-Christ.
Or his people picked him. Either way it still made him the village idiot.
[add]
Wait a minute, the American choses him for 2 terms.
QFT!
Bush put his name at the top or the pack of traitors, murderers, torturers, war criminals, war profiteers, corrupt financial robber barons and general incompetents. There is no excuse for their coarse ciminality and complete betrayal of the public trust.
As of 11/7/2008, they have squandered the lives of 4,192 American troops, and tens of thousands more Americans are wounded, scarred and disabled for life in their war of LIES in Iraq.
In that war, they also squandered trillions of dollars in current expenses and future debt that our great grandchildren will still be paying long after we're gone from this planet.
They willingly shredded the rights guaranteed to every American citizen under our once valued, once great Constitution.
They abandoned all oversight of their wealthy contributors from the financial sector as they raped and pillaged our economy which will cost further trillions to restore... if that can be accomplished at all.
I hope the entire adminstration is charged, tried and convicted of their crimes and given free, all expenses paid lifetime vacations at the beautiful downtown Guantanamo Hilton with free daily passes on the exciting waterboard ride. :thumbdown; :|
It isn't torture. They said so themselves, and we can believe them... right? :roll:
History will show Bush as a turd in the punchbowl of American history. :thumbsdown: :|
cKGunslinger
Lifer
- Nov 29, 1999
- 16,408
- 57
- 91
And he used that "political capital" to ramrod 7 years of pro-government, anti-citizen policies and legislation down our throats.
ConstipatedVigilante
Diamond Member
- Feb 22, 2006
- 7,670
- 1
- 0
I don't think everything is his fault (my lawn mower broke! It's Bush's fault for allowing cheap imports! :roll, but he was quite incompetent in his duties. No president should allow himself (or herself, as is possible) to become a puppet of their cabinet. He has been incredibly weak on homeland security despite all that he's said and all the laws he's broken. He also doesn't seem to have any real control over situations overseas - his secretaries and Cheney seem to have done all of the dealings.
That being said, I don't think he's a bad guy - just a bit misguided and somewhat of a tool. I'd sort of rather have a beer with him than Barack (and I voted for him).
Edit: He's far from the worst president ever, though. He didn't do anything to the country that can't be fixed by a decent president in a term or two. The same can't be said for Buchanan or Hoover.
, but he was quite incompetent in his duties. No president should allow himself (or herself, as is possible) to become a puppet of their cabinet. He has been incredibly weak on homeland security despite all that he's said and all the laws he's broken. He also doesn't seem to have any real control over situations overseas - his secretaries and Cheney seem to have done all of the dealings.That being said, I don't think he's a bad guy - just a bit misguided and somewhat of a tool. I'd sort of rather have a beer with him than Barack (and I voted for him).
Edit: He's far from the worst president ever, though. He didn't do anything to the country that can't be fixed by a decent president in a term or two. The same can't be said for Buchanan or Hoover.
WTF does that even mean?
Sheik Yerbouti
Lifer
- Feb 16, 2005
- 14,080
- 5,453
- 136
No, he isn't, wasn't nor I doubt ever will be categorized as a 'good guy'. And If anything history will uncover secrets, lies, that should have been brought to light during his presidency. History will only incriminate this man further hopefully he will be reading about it as he rots in a jail cell.
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