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Bush Victory Continues to Bolster Economy

IGBT

Lifer
Text

"The effectiveness of President Bush's tax cuts has been affirmed on two fronts: at the ballot box, and in the job market," said ATR President Grover Norquist. "By giving Americans back more of their own hard earned money, President Bush is giving the Americans economy the freedom and stimulus it needs to create new jobs."
 
Nice to see people employeed...but I want to see real jobs. Manufacturing again. Exporting our products to other countries on a more even basis. Maybe it will never happen again, who knows. Service, temporary and government jobs don't do for this economy what real jobs do, and it has shown. Flat markets for years even with the growing number of jobs.

Deficits are another issue altogether....at this point, what the tax cuts give back, the deficits will take away at some point...maybe sooner than we all realize.
 
Originally posted by: Engineer
Nice to see people employeed...but I want to see real jobs.

Yeah... I'm sick on all these "phantom" jobs.

The U.S. will continue to lose manufacturing jobs because we are beyond the industrial revolution. Other rising nations will be taking over, ie. China and South America. Our future lies in technology jobs, not manufacturing. Sorry.
 
Originally posted by: daniel1113
Originally posted by: Engineer
Nice to see people employeed...but I want to see real jobs.

Yeah... I'm sick on all these "phantom" jobs.

The U.S. will continue to lose manufacturing jobs because we are beyond the industrial revolution. Other rising nations will be taking over, ie. China and South America. Our future lies in technology jobs, not manufacturing. Sorry.


Then let's create some of them and export their products instead of the low end temporary and service jobs? How about creating some of them instead of the over 1,000,000 governement jobs that have been added - all esentially service? How about keeping the tech. jobs we have instead of sending them to India and the likes? Maybe the weak dollar helps here, maybe it don't. If we don't export something (other than jobs), the trade deficit will continue to haunt us. 2/3 of our cash is now held by foreign countries (citizens and governments).

The budget deficit, well, that's another story.


 
Originally posted by: Engineer
Originally posted by: daniel1113
Originally posted by: Engineer
Nice to see people employeed...but I want to see real jobs.

Yeah... I'm sick on all these "phantom" jobs.

The U.S. will continue to lose manufacturing jobs because we are beyond the industrial revolution. Other rising nations will be taking over, ie. China and South America. Our future lies in technology jobs, not manufacturing. Sorry.


Then let's create some of them and export their products instead of the low end temporary and service jobs? How about creating some of them instead of the over 1,000,000 governement jobs that have been added - all esentially service? How about keeping the tech. jobs we have instead of sending them to India and the likes? Maybe the weak dollar helps here, maybe it don't. If we don't export something (other than jobs), the trade deficit will continue to haunt us. 2/3 of our cash is now held by foreign countries (citizens and governments).

The budget deficit, well, that's another story.


:thumbsup: to your post and NOT to the situation of more and more federal gov't jobs, increasing burger king type jobs, and the outsourcing that corporations love to do. We are heading into a situation of endless budget and trade deficits where foreign countries are our bankers and a shift from good paying jobs to service sector jobs that pay much less and have fewer benefits.


 
I'm surpised that even after record job growth in the recent month, manufacturing still shed 5k jobs. I didn't even know there were 5,000 manufacuturing jobs left to shed!

Bush has paved the way for the collapse of the dollar. double RECORD deficits that are insurmountable unless our GDP grows and sustains at a rate of 6%. conservative CBO estimates see govt debt rising 33% in the next 10 years, which puts a complete collapse of the dollar in the 7-9 year range.

But no need to worry, rich people won't be affected.
 
Originally posted by: IGBT
Text

"The effectiveness of President Bush's tax cuts has been affirmed on two fronts: at the ballot box, and in the job market," said ATR President Grover Norquist. "By giving Americans back more of their own hard earned money, President Bush is giving the Americans economy the freedom and stimulus it needs to create new jobs."
Before we get too giddy, bear in mind that still leaves us with a net job deficit of roughly 700,000 jobs since Bush took office. That's just to break even. Breaking even isn't nearly good enough. U.S. employment must grow by 140,000 to 165,000 jobs every month just to keep up with our growing population. Using the more conservative figure, that means Bush needed to add 6.3 million jobs since he took the helm (45 months). Simply put, we are still 7,000,000 jobs below where we started almost four years ago.

As Engineer suggests, the few jobs added are, on the average, not nearly as good as the jobs lost. We are replacing high-paying manufacturing and technical jobs with lower-paying service jobs. Perhaps more significantly, we are losing jobs that produce expotable goods and services. This aggravates our trade imbalance and weakens our economy.

In short, Bush needs to do something dramatic and decisive to turn our slowly sinking economy around. He'll have to stop whoring the White House to special interests. I don't think that's likely, but I'd love to be shown wrong. America desperately needs for me to be wrong.
 
The jobs that are outsourced are still within the dollar economy even if the new jobs are created in foreign lands. The profit that comes back to the US company that outsourced the job comes in the form of dollars. That is why it is impossible to compete with cheap overseas labor. Once a job is gone it's gone. As long as the earnings from abroad are denominated in dollars (the worlds reserve currency) it will be easy for US companies to outsource.

But maybe in the long run things won't be so easy for US companies abroad.

Here is an interesting article where the Chinese Communist Party breaks Wal Mart's famous anti-Union stance (not that it will benefit workers much as this is a power ploy by the CCP).

This article is from October

China Pressures Wal-Mart, Other Foreign Investors on Communist Party-Controlled Trade Union

And now this:

Wal Mart Will Allow Unions In China

Mon Nov 22,11:39 PM ET

BEIJING (Reuters) - Wal-Mart Stores Inc., the world's biggest retailer, gave ground to Chinese pressure Tuesday and said it would allow its workers to set up a trade union.

The decision by the U.S.-based company, under intense scrutiny worldwide for its labor practices, highlighted the importance of a market where it bought $15 billion worth of goods last year and is aggressively adding stores.

"Should associates request formation of a union, Wal-Mart China would respect their wishes and honor its obligations under China's Trade Union Law," the firm said in a statement.

Wal-Mart calls its employees associates.

China threatened last month to blacklist Wal-Mart and a handful of other foreign firms if they did not set up trade unions at their China units.

Analysts have said the union battle may be more about influence of the state than employee rights.

The trade federation, which claims 123 million members, is a state organ that controls virtually every union in the country. Independent trade unions are illegal.

But the federation's influence has been waning, with increasing numbers of workers heading to multinational firms or being laid off as China reforms its state-owned giants.

Foreign retailers such as Wal-Mart, Germany's Metro AG, France's Carrefour SA and Britain's Tesco Plc. are all developing a presence in China as Beijing relaxes rules governing foreign retail investment.

Wal-Mart said it was in full compliance with China's Trade Union Law, which it said states that establishing a union is a voluntary action of the associates.

"Currently there are no unions in Wal-Mart China because associates have not requested that one be formed," the statement said.

 
A government controlled union is at least as worthless as a corporate controlled one.

A union is only meaningful if it free and independant, and controlled by its members through voting.

Free union organizer wannabes have routinely been threatened, arrested, and jailed in China.
 
Originally posted by: daniel1113
Originally posted by: Engineer
Nice to see people employeed...but I want to see real jobs.

Yeah... I'm sick on all these "phantom" jobs.

The U.S. will continue to lose manufacturing jobs because we are beyond the industrial revolution. Other rising nations will be taking over, ie. China and South America. Our future lies in technology jobs, not manufacturing. Sorry.

I have no problem with this and i disagree with many that transitioning to a non-manufacturing economy is such a bad thing.

Although i am an advocate of smart machine manufacturing where little labour is needed and the location of plants/manu facilities are less important. But it is my opinion that if we give tax incentives to companies to keep the manu jobs here, we will be the benifiters when smart machines are available. This will generate a true strength in the economy as we are flexible to making things here and reap the profits.

If it ever comes to all out war with say china and they make all your componants...i wonder what would happen in a service driven US economy...well im sure you can figure it out.

Smart machines are the future, might as well have them here not there. And if china can set itself up as a manu leader, there will be no reason to setup shop in the US.

The current rate of manu jobs leaving is not a good thing. Service jobs will run out, you need a backbone for all the fat.

Most of the service jobs created are governmental, and we are seeing the fiscal situation of the governement aren't we?...tell me how long this "job growth" will continue. $600 billion deficits?...$700?...Trillion dollar?

Get your fiscals on track then see if you can afford to send all these jobs overseas.
 
after the holidays, how many people are going to get canned due to layoffs and laying off people just for seaonsal help.
 
The total number of jobs numbers are completely meaningless. If a guy with a $65,000 a year job loses his employment, and two people making $20,000 a year working a McJob are added to the payroll, it would seem that one additional job had been created. Technically, a job has been created in that scenario, but with less pay and less benefits, thus hurting the middle class.

I'd like to see the economists stop simply reporting the "jobs created" number, but rather report the jobs created/lost in each bracket (in terms of income, benefits etc).
 
Originally posted by: IGBT
Text

"The effectiveness of President Bush's tax cuts has been affirmed on two fronts: at the ballot box, and in the job market," said ATR President Grover Norquist. "By giving Americans back more of their own hard earned money, President Bush is giving the Americans economy the freedom and stimulus it needs to create new jobs."

:roll:
 
overseas employment is what they really meant. the number of unemployment in america is still stagnant. whatever they say, whatever statictic is based on speculation, guess work.
America is selling itself short in pursuit of money and control of the world's population.
If you won't be slave to corporation then they will move their arse out of this country to 3rd world country where starving people will do anything to be fed. haha. so damn, god damnit true..
we bitch, whine and complain too much. they are fed up with us, I mean royally.
The cause for mass unemployment in America.

 
Could someone post a link that describes which jobs are created? I keep seeing numbers thrown out there, but I wouldn't mind seeing more definitive evidence. 🙂
 
Originally posted by: Strk
Could someone post a link that describes which jobs are created? I keep seeing numbers thrown out there, but I wouldn't mind seeing more definitive evidence. 🙂

Tough to find...i assume there is a trend that nobody wants to know. At this point, optimism is the only thing going for the US as the numbers in all areas are pretty grim.

here is an interesting stat. Workweek
The average work week is has shrunk 1hour a week on average in the last 4 years.
 
Originally posted by: Engineer
Nice to see people employeed...but I want to see real jobs. Manufacturing again. Exporting our products to other countries on a more even basis. Maybe it will never happen again, who knows. Service, temporary and government jobs don't do for this economy what real jobs do, and it has shown. Flat markets for years even with the growing number of jobs.

Deficits are another issue altogether....at this point, what the tax cuts give back, the deficits will take away at some point...maybe sooner than we all realize.

You guys did pretty well through the 90s, with service jobs being the prime movers of growth.
 
Originally posted by: Kibbo
Originally posted by: Engineer
Nice to see people employeed...but I want to see real jobs. Manufacturing again. Exporting our products to other countries on a more even basis. Maybe it will never happen again, who knows. Service, temporary and government jobs don't do for this economy what real jobs do, and it has shown. Flat markets for years even with the growing number of jobs.

Deficits are another issue altogether....at this point, what the tax cuts give back, the deficits will take away at some point...maybe sooner than we all realize.

You guys did pretty well through the 90s, with service jobs being the prime movers of growth.

I'm not sure what the "you guys" means, but I joined my company in 1991. Two new plants were built and one expanded through 2001. Since then, we've built 2 new plants - IN MEXICO - and are in the process of shutting down 4 US plants (maybe more). One other plant took a pay cut to stay open. Those people lost $2.60 on the hour along with a doubling of the health insurance costs (They were making around $12.00 per hour before that).

Talking to industrial salesmen (people who really get around), the talk is the same throughout most of the midwest (Ohio, Indiana, Kentucky, etc).

Add the fact that companies are sending even the basic service jobs overseas now (your credit report will be moved - unless stopped - to India by this time next year).

Throw in a few deficits of a trillion or so....and it's the makings of a big mess.

 
Originally posted by: Engineer
Originally posted by: Kibbo
Originally posted by: Engineer
Nice to see people employeed...but I want to see real jobs. Manufacturing again. Exporting our products to other countries on a more even basis. Maybe it will never happen again, who knows. Service, temporary and government jobs don't do for this economy what real jobs do, and it has shown. Flat markets for years even with the growing number of jobs.

Deficits are another issue altogether....at this point, what the tax cuts give back, the deficits will take away at some point...maybe sooner than we all realize.

You guys did pretty well through the 90s, with service jobs being the prime movers of growth.

I'm not sure what the "you guys" means, but I joined my company in 1991. Two new plants were built and one expanded through 2001. Since then, we've built 2 new plants - IN MEXICO - and are in the process of shutting down 4 US plants (maybe more). One other plant took a pay cut to stay open. Those people lost $2.60 on the hour along with a doubling of the health insurance costs (They were making around $12.00 per hour before that).

Talking to industrial salesmen (people who really get around), the talk is the same throughout most of the midwest (Ohio, Indiana, Kentucky, etc).

Add the fact that companies are sending even the basic service jobs overseas now (your credit report will be moved - unless stopped - to India by this time next year).

Throw in a few deficits of a trillion or so....and it's the makings of a big mess.

Engineer, you're complaining too much.... when you get laid off, you should REJOICE in saying "Paper or plastic?" C'mon, get with the program.
 
Helping Themselves

By Michael Atkinson

There may not be a more thoroughly ravaged national economy on the planet than Argentina?s?it?s a poster child for IMF wrack and ruin. As revealed in grueling, horrifying detail in Fernando Solanas? 2004 documentary Memoria del Saqueo (shown here only in film festivals), the last 30 years or so have been a relentless litany of bureaucratic power grabs, political lies, privatization sell-offs and insidious opportunism, much of it at the International Monetary Fund?s insistence and due to President Carlos Menem?s bald-faced carpetbagging. In just a few decades a country that boasted South America?s most prosperous middle class was converted into a nation of scrambling beggars, saddled with an excess of 20 percent unemployment and a national bankruptcy that outscaled any other in world history.

Solanas? film may be too outraged and too crystal clear in its history lesson to be released in this country, but in its stead we have Avi Lewis and Naomi Klein?s The Take, which thumbnails the last few years of Argentine economic freefall. In both films, at least, we are witness to footage of street protests so huge and of a boiling citizenry so engaged and aware of the perpetrators of their crisis that we?re given cause to wonder if it?ll take a wholesale economic disaster here before Americans decide to similarly take their lives and livelihoods into their own hands. Most of the Buenos Aires rioters? violence was perpetrated upon ATMs and bank buildings. With four more Bush years ahead, we may not have long to wait.

Lewis and Klein?s movie confronts that reality immediately, introducing us to the ?globalized ghost town? of empty Argentine factories, and reminding us that although this is Buenos Aires, ?it could be anywhere.? The film?s focus, however, is on a movement to reclaim bankrupt factories with collectives formed by the laid-off laborers. It?s such a fantastic scenario, right in the dark heart of Globalization Central, that it seems like a schoolkid?s daydream come true, and the filmmakers are as amazed as we are. The movement itself is not small: Approximately 15,000 workers have ?occupied? some 200 ownerless businesses, from private schools to hotels to the auto parts factory that Klein and Lewis focus on. There, a new collective of unemployed machinists struggles to legitimize itself and obtain a legal right to run the shop. In this dynamic, the workers typically get equal salaries and vote in assemblies on all business dealings.

From every conceivable perspective save that of the companies? old owners, who want their concerns back now that they?re solvent and functioning, the collective model is the optimum manner for human business: fair, inspiring, effectual, non-exploitative.

?I don?t know why it was so hard for the bosses,? a middle-aged member of a suit-making company collective says about running a profitable enterprise. ?You just add and subtract.?

Lewis and Klein?s modest movie has an embarrassingly patronizing tone but a triumphant arc: Among other happy endings, the seminal collective of middle-aged seamstresses that runs the Brukman suit manufacturer weather a lockout and a harrowing street clash with police before winning back their factory. Because it?s a movement that began from the ground up, like unions, this proto-Communist structure has a chance of becoming an integral part of the Third World landscape. But it?s also dismayingly vulnerable to government intervention and steamrolling international capitalism; one doubts that the WTO will let the Argentine ?National Movement of Recovered Factories? get too large, too pervasive or too successful.

Still, Argentines have reason to be proud of their productive resistance, if not for everything else: As Lewis and Klein show, when Menem arose from his lair to run for a third presidency?this after having sold every imaginable resource and service to foreign companies so that even the street signs have MasterCard logos on them?he almost won. Like Americans, Argentines are susceptible to the hard sell, to messianic advertising and comforting untruths. But in being pushed to the wall, they may have come up with the answer to the industrial working world?s prayers.

 
Originally posted by: IGBT
Text

"The effectiveness of President Bush's tax cuts has been affirmed on two fronts: at the ballot box, and in the job market," said ATR President Grover Norquist. "By giving Americans back more of their own hard earned money, President Bush is giving the Americans economy the freedom and stimulus it needs to create new jobs."

How exactly are dividends, capital gains, and inheritances "hard earned money?" 😀
But Bush's tax cuts are helping in a way by weakening the dollar due to the huge deficit and making US goods more competitive overseas.
 
Who's fault is it that Unions have priced US based manufacturing out of existance. The company is not to blame, it is the idiot workers who thinks that their HS drop out asses are good enough to make $24/hr pushing buttons. Well, welcome to the real world. If you want a job, you better have a skill and compete for it. People who cannot, frankly, don't deserve to work.

Blame who is to blame - the greedy Unions and their idiot membership. At some point Unions will make it to the third world, and prices will inflate. Companies will look for cheaper sources. In the end however, wages will begin to increase all over the world, and parity will become much closer.
 
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