Bush Set to Open Oil Reserve Spigot

[Perknose]

Originally posted by: CycloWizard
I haven't heard anyone saying that prices are high due to a lack of refineries. If there were, then they would build more refineries - oil companies aren't exactly short on the means to do this. As it stands now, no new refineries have been built in the US for more than 30 years. The reserve opening keeps a steady supply to the refineries while the pipelines from the Gulf are dry. I doubt this action will lower prices much, if at all. Instead, it will prevent them from spiking sharply.

WOW! You are fundamentally misinformed on this issue! The last new refinery built in the United States was completed in 1976!!! Of course, demand has soared since then.

There are a variety of factors, but NIMBY and Adam Smith's invisible hand loom large in the equation.

 

[XZeroII]

Originally posted by: cougarls88

Originally posted by: XZeroII

Originally posted by: Zebo
Bush, as president and republican, is the Administrator of the federal governemnt, as such, he will do things to make himself, not the democrats looks good. You all should be happy regaurdless if fuel prices get lowered. Especially the working poor where every cent counts.

Liberals don't care about the working people. All they care about is politics, as demonstrated from this thread.

As if Bush gives a damn about the working class aside from a blind vote. Wonder what else they can dismantle to punish the middle class in another four years if he's given the chance.

Oh, BTW...for you

I deserve a cookie! You liberals think you're so self ritchious and represent all that is good in this world. You think that you have all the answers and anyone who disagrees with you is wrong. It's about time someone snapps a few of you back to reality. No one side is perfect or right all the time. Who knows, maybe Bush is doing this for political reasons. But jumping to conclusions like Todd here has done is the mark of a true idiot.

 

[Perknose]

Originally posted by: XZeroII
I deserve a cookie! You liberals think you're so self ritchious and represent all that is good in this world. You think that you have all the answers and anyone who disagrees with you is wrong. It's about time someone snapps a few of you back to reality. No one side is perfect or right all the time. Who knows, maybe Bush is doing this for political reasons. But jumping to conclusions like Todd here has done is the mark of a true idiot.

Unlike you, who says rational, considered things like:

Liberals don't care about the working people. All they care about is politics . . .

You're damn right you deserve a cooke, and, look closely, those dark specks just may not be chocolate.

 

[rickn]

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - With oil near $50 a barrel, the Bush administration is set to allow oil refineries to borrow from the government's emergency petroleum stockpile to make up for supplies disrupted by Hurricane Ivan, a congressional source briefed on the pending decision told Reuters on Thursday.

Ivan is the 3rd hurricane this year to directly hit florida, and it wasn't even the worst one.

 

[XZeroII]

Originally posted by: Perknose

Originally posted by: XZeroII
I deserve a cookie! You liberals think you're so self ritchious and represent all that is good in this world. You think that you have all the answers and anyone who disagrees with you is wrong. It's about time someone snapps a few of you back to reality. No one side is perfect or right all the time. Who knows, maybe Bush is doing this for political reasons. But jumping to conclusions like Todd here has done is the mark of a true idiot.

Unlike you, who says rational, considered things like:

Liberals don't care about the working people. All they care about is politics . . .

You're damn right you deserve a cooke, and, look closely, those dark specks just may not be chocolate.

Care to refute what I said rather than change the subject?


and I admit that I am not perfect either. However, put what I said into context and read the whole thread and you'll see what I mean.

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: XZeroII

I deserve a cookie! You liberals think you're so self ritchious and represent all that is good in this world. You think that you have all the answers and anyone who disagrees with you is wrong. It's about time someone snapps a few of you back to reality.

:roll:


Going for three???

 

[onelove]

I find the timing to be suspicious. I would give him the benefit of the doubt, except for the fact that I would not trust George Buuush with .75 to run to the corner and buy me a can of Pepsi.

 

[ElFenix]

Originally posted by: rickn

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - With oil near $50 a barrel, the Bush administration is set to allow oil refineries to borrow from the government's emergency petroleum stockpile to make up for supplies disrupted by Hurricane Ivan, a congressional source briefed on the pending decision told Reuters on Thursday.

Ivan is the 3rd hurricane this year to directly hit florida, and it wasn't even the worst one.

i don't think the others went through oil fields south of louisiana

 

[Hossenfeffer]

I don't think it's primarily political, but I'm sure that no one in the administration will poo-poo the likely positive reaction it receives.

 

[alphatarget1]

kind of like when Republicans bashed Clinton when he opened up the reserves because the northern parts of the country needed it.

Bush is doing the right thing on this issue Both sides are silly for critizing the other side for doing the right thing. What would you do if a couple of hurricanes just struck your state?

 

[lordtyranus]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: Todd33

At least 11 refineries on the U.S. Gulf Coast shut or reduced operations because of Hurricane Ivan.

How does more oil make more gas if the refineries are not producing? Survey says, it just lower crude prices, thus he screws with the free market during an election year, the thing he was agasint in 2000.

Whooopie, a whole 11 Rigs, Oh My God we're doomed without them.

This clearly shows Kerry is NOT the only FLIP-FLOPPER.

Dems are ignorant of the meaning of the word flipflop. Ironic, as your leader is one.

What would you do if a couple of hurricanes just struck your state?

Well, as it is florida, the libs are hoping that the republican voters there are wiped out.


Bush could give every member of this forum a million dollars and libs would claim he is doing something wrong. The guy just cant win.

 

[Todd33]

Please educate us on flip-flopping lordtyranus...

I'd say someone that opposes using the reserve except for emergency global disruptions due to war/etc. in 2000 then using just before the election four years later due to "high" prices is a flip-flop and opportunist.

 

[lordtyranus]

Originally posted by: Todd33
Please educate us on flip-flopping lordtyranus...

I'd say someone that opposes using the reserve except for emergency global disruptions due to war/etc. in 2000 then using just before the election four years later due to "high" prices is a flip-flop and opportunist.

Flip flopping = changing your mind more than once. Like Kerry on Iraq, for example. Your example is merely a flip and quite common among politicians.

Now when you take both sides of an issue (like Kerry did during the Gulf War), I like to call that a flap. Though I'm not sure there is an accepted term.

 

[Todd33]

You will simply defend his flip-flopping with spin. How kind of you. I think it was Kerry that called for the reserve to be used months ago, good to see the President is following Kerry's lead again.

I agree, all politicians do this, but Bush deserves it to be thrown in his face for pure hypocrisy reasons. I suggest you google "Bush flip-flop" for many examples.

 

[umbrella39]

Originally posted by: lordtyranus

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: Todd33

At least 11 refineries on the U.S. Gulf Coast shut or reduced operations because of Hurricane Ivan.

How does more oil make more gas if the refineries are not producing? Survey says, it just lower crude prices, thus he screws with the free market during an election year, the thing he was agasint in 2000.

Whooopie, a whole 11 Rigs, Oh My God we're doomed without them.

This clearly shows Kerry is NOT the only FLIP-FLOPPER.

Dems are ignorant of the meaning of the word flipflop. Ironic, as your leader is one.

What would you do if a couple of hurricanes just struck your state?

Well, as it is florida, the libs are hoping that the republican voters there are wiped out.


Bush could give every member of this forum a million dollars and libs would claim he is doing something wrong. The guy just cant win.

On the flip side of that coin, Bush could come sh!t on your forehead while you sleep tonight and you would say "thank you sir, may I have another". How sick is that?

 

[lordtyranus]

Originally posted by: Todd33
You will simply defend his flip-flopping with spin. How kind of you. I think it was Kerry that called for the reserve to be used months ago, good to see the President is following Kerry's lead again.

I agree, all politicians do this, but Bush deserves it to be thrown in his face for pure hypocrisy reasons. I suggest you google "Bush flip-flop" for many examples.

I've read the post on this very forum about Bush's so called flipflops. All of them were flips. See the distinction?

 

[CycloWizard]

Originally posted by: digitalsm
Actually we are at near capacity when it comes to refining. So even if we had the supply needed we would still run short. Refineries have historically bled red, which is why there hasnt been a new one opened in the US in ~30 years. Now some will say but but the oil companies are racking in money hand over fist due to their refining business. Yes they have, and its a statistical anomaly thats going to be short lived.

Refineries can't bleed red - they're how crude oil is made into something useful. Of course they're not profit machines in and of themselves - they require ridiculous amounts of manpower, power, and money to run. However, the oil itself is useless before it's refined.

Look, I'll try to keep this simple and within the scope of this discussion: new refineries are not being built for several reasons:
1. The cost is prohibitive (billions)
2. By keeping the refining capacity constant, supply is limited
3. Since supply is limited, oil companies save money by drilling and pumping less oil

As a result of all these factors, the oil companies make more money off the reserves available while spending less capital for improvements (refineries and drilling apparati).

Interesting read for anyone who wants to learn more about gas prices: How Stuff Works. This web site is awesome in general. Read their automotive section before you get ripped off again by a garage.

Originally posted by: Perknose
WOW! You are fundamentally misinformed on this issue! The last new refinery built in the United States was completed in 1976!!! Of course, demand has soared since then.

There are a variety of factors, but NIMBY and Adam Smith's invisible hand loom large in the equation.

Sigh. Must I give a lecture on petroleum engineering now? A refinery is a plant. A plant can be upgraded to improve capacity. Operations can be tweaked to increase capacity. Separation technology has made leaps and bounds in response to this need for higher oil throughputs. Read up on reactive distillation and catalytic cracking and get back to me. I hate to restate this again at your expense Perk, but this happens to be my field of expertise.

Originally posted by: Todd33
Please educate us on flip-flopping lordtyranus...

I'd say someone that opposes using the reserve except for emergency global disruptions due to war/etc. in 2000 then using just before the election four years later due to "high" prices is a flip-flop and opportunist.

He didn't open it for any war, despite the fact that the war is the primary driving force for increased oil prices.

 

[slyedog]

poor libs with their little pointed twisted minds. in less than 40 days they can bury themselves in
the sand and start planning the 08 campaign for "big dick hilliary" this one is history

 

[Genx87]

Well , is there a lack of oil or refineries? The righties have been arguing gas prices are high due to lack of refineries, now you say we need more oil. Somehow I doubt the there is shortage of gas, but I'd like to read about it if you have a link. I think releasing the oil is just easing demand and lowering prices globally. Lower prices is not the same as supplying oil directly to the refineries in the gulf region for gulf region use. The hurricanes makes a great story, but making gas cheaper very indirectly right before a election wreaks political.

Last I heard we havent built a new refinery in 30 years.

Anywho back to the original topic. It makes sense due to the weather and due to the fact that prices have been rising while we continued to rise our reserve of oil. If they just topped off the reserve and let what they were buying up go onto the free market we may finally see a little relief.

 

[Todd33]

Originally posted by: Genx87

Well , is there a lack of oil or refineries? The righties have been arguing gas prices are high due to lack of refineries, now you say we need more oil. Somehow I doubt the there is shortage of gas, but I'd like to read about it if you have a link. I think releasing the oil is just easing demand and lowering prices globally. Lower prices is not the same as supplying oil directly to the refineries in the gulf region for gulf region use. The hurricanes makes a great story, but making gas cheaper very indirectly right before a election wreaks political.

Last I heard we havent built a new refinery in 30 years.

Anywho back to the original topic. It makes sense due to the weather and due to the fact that prices have been rising while we continued to rise our reserve of oil. If they just topped off the reserve and let what they were buying up go onto the free market we may finally see a little relief.

I agree. He is using it to lower prices and there is nothing wrong with that. It's the fact that he was opposed to this in the past, even a few months ago when Kerry called for it, but now right before the election he changed his mind.

 

[Darkhawk28]

Originally posted by: Todd33

Originally posted by: Genx87

Well , is there a lack of oil or refineries? The righties have been arguing gas prices are high due to lack of refineries, now you say we need more oil. Somehow I doubt the there is shortage of gas, but I'd like to read about it if you have a link. I think releasing the oil is just easing demand and lowering prices globally. Lower prices is not the same as supplying oil directly to the refineries in the gulf region for gulf region use. The hurricanes makes a great story, but making gas cheaper very indirectly right before a election wreaks political.

Last I heard we havent built a new refinery in 30 years.

Anywho back to the original topic. It makes sense due to the weather and due to the fact that prices have been rising while we continued to rise our reserve of oil. If they just topped off the reserve and let what they were buying up go onto the free market we may finally see a little relief.

I agree. He is using it to lower prices and there is nothing wrong with that. It's the fact that he was opposed to this in the past, even a few months ago when Kerry called for it, but now right before the election he changed his mind.

Another Bush flip-flop.

 

[CycloWizard]

Originally posted by: Todd33
I agree. He is using it to lower prices and there is nothing wrong with that. It's the fact that he was opposed to this in the past, even a few months ago when Kerry called for it, but now right before the election he changed his mind.

Yet you continually dismiss the possibility that there could be legitimate need for it now, whereas a few months ago the same need did not exist. Iraq hasn't changed in that time, but storms have. Therefore, a different approach is the only logical way to proceed. Whether he sees a bump from it or not, it's the right thing to do. Can you argue this?

 

[Todd33]

Show me the need for crude oil... The storms have not cut world wide production or transportation. I use logic connecting the obvious dots, you simply make excuses.

 

[ntdz]

3 hurricanes have hit the south, SEVERELY disrupting supply from the gulf of mexico. It this just a minor oil reserve release, and its all in loans. They have to give the same amount of oil back once the supply gets back to normal. If he wanted to do something political, he release a ton of the oil to lower gas prices. What is being released is a drop in the bucket.

 

[Perknose]

Originally posted by: CycloWizard

Originally posted by: Perknose
WOW! You are fundamentally misinformed on this issue! The last new refinery built in the United States was completed in 1976!!! Of course, demand has soared since then.

There are a variety of factors, but NIMBY and Adam Smith's invisible hand loom large in the equation.

Sigh. Must I give a lecture on petroleum engineering now? A refinery is a plant. A plant can be upgraded to improve capacity. Operations can be tweaked to increase capacity. Separation technology has made leaps and bounds in response to this need for higher oil throughputs. Read up on reactive distillation and catalytic cracking and get back to me. I hate to restate this again at your expense Perk, but this happens to be my field of expertise.

This being your field of expertise, CW, only makes it more difficult for me to understand why you are not apprised of the current, persistant and dramatic American crisis in oil refinery capacity, "leaps and bounds" in seperation technology and ALL other improvements and existing plant expansions you cited notwithstanding.

According to this report from the National Petrochemical and Refiner's Association, between 1999 and 2002 refining capacity in the United States rose only 3 percent, squeezing up prices since demand grew much faster than that.

Dan Burton (R) Indiana had this to say in a letter to Gray Davis, urging him not to curtail electricity to California refineries during the their Enron inspired energy crisis:

As you may be aware, the nation?s oil and gas infrastructure has suffered through many of the same constraints as the electricity infrastructure. Because of stringent and expensive environmental regulations, refinery capacity has failed to keep pace with the demand for gasoline and other petroleum products. As a result, refineries are operating at peak capacity nearly year-round to meet demand. California maintains only a three and a half day supply of gasoline. A single disruption could cause severe market disruptions, as evidenced by the price spikes in Chicago and Milwaukee last summer.

I'd quote more, but I share your distaste for giving and receiving lectures. 😉