Bush Prepares for Possible GPS Shutdown

[WooDaddy]

Bush wants to shutdown the US GPS system...

I'm not going to say much. Here are my points on why this is uniquely stupid and will be stopped at all costs.

1) Shutting down an infrastructure to prevent an attack actually prevents our own defenses from working. Ie, lets shutdown the internet so they can't broadcast beheadings... oh but now we can't communicate with ANYONE in the world... But at least the terrorists can't show their movies!
2) You've already broadcasted the defense technique. The "terrorists" have now realized that our government is willing to do rash things to stop them. US 0 - Terrorists 1. They just created terror.... DUH
3) Terrorists aren't cave dwelling, club holding neanderthals. They are people from all walks and higher levels of intelligence than Bush and his croneys. They're smart enough to come up with other means to strike terror.
3) Lobbyists will stop this. Too much private industry uses GPS.
4-1000) Lobbyists.

The funny thing is that these lobbyists are actually acting in the public's best interest. It's kinda like Republicans being culturally aware and sensitive (shades of slavery days and reconstruction)..
Wow, I just saw a pig fly out my a$$....

EDIT: I took out the word "entire" infrastructure. Yes, he said out an area. But still the same idea. Let's turn out the lights so the enemy can't see us, but wait, we can't see them. What would be smart (or maybe done in the first place) is to put up US military only satellites for locationing systems. Or how about authentication.. See, a little thought can go far.


I still stand by #2. I don't think our government should broadcast the defense technique we "might" use. I still do have faith in my government (not because of Bush, but because of the thousands of other people who have sense) to protect me. I don't need to know EVERYTHING...

 

[TastesLikeChicken]

Talk about distorting the facts and sliding down a slippery slope in order to fearmonger.

It makes me wonder if you actually even read the article you posted?

 

[Czar]

nothing new really, this is why the US doesnt like the european positioning system, they have no control over it

 

[yllus]

WASHINGTON - President Bush has ordered plans for temporarily disabling the U.S. network of global positioning satellites during a national crisis to prevent terrorists from using the navigational technology, the White House said Wednesday.

*looks at thread title* I think you may be missing a couple of key words there.

1) Shutting down an infrastructure to prevent an attack actually prevents our own defenses from working. Ie, lets shutdown the internet so they can't broadcast beheadings... oh but now we can't communicate with ANYONE in the world... But at least the terrorists can't show their movies!

1) We're not talking about the Internet or phone lines or whatnot, we're talking about GPS. The article is dumbing down the idea of shutdown too much - it'd still be accessible by authorized military and civilian agencies. Everything you write after ie. makes no sense whatsoever.

2) You've already broadcasted the defense technique. The "terrorists" have now realized that our government is willing to do rash things to stop them. US 0 - Terrorists 1. They just created terror.... DUH

2) Uh...so should the government instead avoid preparing for emergencies? How do you consider denying terrorists battlefield data over GPS 'rash'? Cellular networks have been shut down in the past similarly for short durations to make communication more difficult for terrorists.

3) Terrorists aren't cave dwelling, club holding neanderthals. They are people from all walks and higher levels of intelligence than Bush and his croneys. They're smart enough to come up with other means to strike terror.

3) And the problem with shutting off as many avenues of information as possible is?

3) Lobbyists will stop this. Too much private industry uses GPS.
4-1000) Lobbyists.

National security > lobbyists. Not to mention, politics > lobbyists. How is a lobbyist going to counter the national security argument without getting torn to shreds?

I really, really hope you posted this thead with your tongue firmly planted in cheek. This is easily the dumbest thread to be posted in P&N in months.

 

[Miramonti]

This could probably provide a significant boost for Galileo. I don't know how our military could live w/o it tho.

 

[amish]

1. i highly doubt that shutting down a civilian system will stop the military from stopping terrorists when the time came. it would help confuse a terrorist in a land that they may be unfamiliar with.

2. it is a warning. a warning can stop an event before it even starts. did you even read the article? it is for events of national crisis only, not now, but only when terrorists attack. i don't see too many people worrying about GPS going down when a terrorist attack has just happened. i also don't see too many people worrying about it now except you. so maybe you are creating terror :roll:

3. yes we know that other people besides ourselves are smart.

3 (again). yes we know that corporate america uses GPS, but once again the GPS system would only be shut down for a national crisis. if terrorists struck again there would be a financial crisis again which would cost businesses money. one day without GPS or a couple of years of bad economy, you pick.

4-1000. that's right lobbyists have nothing better to do. i can hear them saying it now, "nevermind taxes and endangered species, we must keep the GPS system up at all costs!"

 

[SuperTool]

There is also the Russian system called GLONASS.

 

[SuperTool]

Oh, and it's a good idea to have a contingency plan for shutting down or jamming GPS. I believe GPS is or was illegal in Russia because they were affraid that spy's would use it to collect data.

 

[TastesLikeChicken]

You can bet the Europeans will consider some sort of equivalent contingency plan for the Galileo system as well. They'd be idiots not to do so.

 

[rudder]

Originally posted by: jjsole
This could probably provide a significant boost for Galileo. I don't know how our military could live w/o it tho.

They are not talking about shutting it off completely. The military has teh ability to scramble the signal so civilian receivers do not work. They can play with the accuracy of civilian receivers.

Edit: from teh article is sounds as if Bush is just advising of the possibility since the Clinton Administration abandoned the practice.

Think about it, airlines rely on GPS more and just flipping a switch would create havoc. The airlines have contigingencies to fly without GPS but it takes planning.

 

[lozina]

Might want to demagnetize the planet as well, so the terrorists can't use compasses to orientate themselves on the battlefield

 

[TastesLikeChicken]

Originally posted by: lozina
Might want to demagnetize the planet as well, so the terrorists can't use compasses to orientate themselves on the battlefield

Nah. All the conspiracy nuts would complain that doing so would make their tin-foil beanines virtually useless.

 

[DealMonkey]

Terrorists don't need GPS, they have expendible human drones willing to die for Allah that can pilot/guide by visual.

 

[ReiAyanami]

What bothers me is that his plan for disabling GPS satellites consists of blowing them up and then giving them tax breaks.

 

[lozina]

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken

Originally posted by: lozina
Might want to demagnetize the planet as well, so the terrorists can't use compasses to orientate themselves on the battlefield

Nah. All the conspiracy nuts would complain that doing so would make their tin-foil beanines virtually useless.

I thought those things tune into cosmic rays- not magnetic fields ??

 

[WooDaddy]

Originally posted by: amish
1. i highly doubt that shutting down a civilian system will stop the military from stopping terrorists when the time came. it would help confuse a terrorist in a land that they may be unfamiliar with.

GPS is not a civilian system. Cellular networks are civilian systems. GPS was built originally for the military and they still use it heavily. Yeah, they could use maps and radar, but GPS was built for its superiority over those methods. Yes, it will confuse terrorists, but it will also slow our own military.

BTW, read the rest of my statement. The alternative is authentication. Block general access that the T's might be using while still having the full access to the system for our own military. Unfortunately, the GPS system is flawed like that..

2. it is a warning. a warning can stop an event before it even starts. did you even read the article? it is for events of national crisis only, not now, but only when terrorists attack. i don't see too many people worrying about GPS going down when a terrorist attack has just happened. i also don't see too many people worrying about it now except you. so maybe you are creating terror :roll:

Consider this - Someone wants to steal your car. They see it from a distance originally... As they get closer, they see the Protected By Viper sign and the Club on the steering wheel and a Lojack sticker (which Lojack even says not to display). Now, the thief knows exactly what not to do to set off the alarm and what to do to bypass it. They come back later with the right tools to circumvent that. Why? Because of the first statement. They want to steal your car. If they didn't know you had that protection, the alarm would've gone off, disabling the car, notifying you and/or police from the siren. If they were successful in driving the car off, the LoJack would locate the car and thief to retrieve everything and apprehend the thief.

The point is this - If a thief/terrorist wants to cause damage, they will attempt to do it. But as the potential victim, we can best prepare ourselves by two things; not showing our strengths (posting stickers, broadcasting our methods to the world) and putting in a system to better track the damage/event as it occurs. Showing to the world we are going to shut off GPS or anything of that sort is broadcasting our strengths or method. Unfortunately, GPS off means no tracking.

Let me repeat. GPS was not originally meant for civilian use.

Also, I agree that shutting down a system during military action is ok. But it's more effective if it's a suprise to the enemy. I am not creating terror because I didn't put out the information knowing the rest of the world would learn of it. The White House did.

3. yes we know that other people besides ourselves are smart.

3 (again). yes we know that corporate america uses GPS, but once again the GPS system would only be shut down for a national crisis. if terrorists struck again there would be a financial crisis again which would cost businesses money. one day without GPS or a couple of years of bad economy, you pick.

9/11 was one day. The FAA shutdown the airline for a few days. Look at our airlines. They have been suffering for years. One day can cause years of bad economy,etc. Your arguement is moot.
My suggestion is don't just shut the whole thing down. Find a smarter way to restrict access.

4-1000. that's right lobbyists have nothing better to do. i can hear them saying it now, "nevermind taxes and endangered species, we must keep the GPS system up at all costs!"

Let's review here, class. What do terrorists do? Insite fear. Cause disruptions. What is an example of what fear makes us do? Act irrationally and not plan. Make us think our future will be filled with pain and suffering.
So... let have some examples of how terrorists have won. The FAA shutdown the airline system. TSA slowed down our airline travel so they can search my shoes. We attacked Iraq without a plan to leave (since we're not conquers.. right?). We now think it's ok to reduce our personal liberties in the name of stopping terrorists. But isn't America supposed to be a haven where we have more personal liberties than most?....

BTW, yllus, I'm not a one trick pony like most people who are into politics. I learn from what other people say. Hell I had to make corrections and I will continue to learn. There's no need to insult me saying it's the dumbest thread to be posted. Show me the inconsistencies and I'll listen and learn.

And also, I'm not complaining like you are. I'm actually providing suggestions for alternatives. Most people complain and add no value. I'm more so upset that the suggested solution is to shut it down even if temporarily. I could care less what the gov't does. They work in our best interests... sometimes. The tactic is very brute force and knee jerk. A smarter solution is to restrict access or encrypt or place an alternate, military use only satellite system. Leave GPS for us, create MIL-SPEC GPS for the US armed forces. I want to know my gov't and military is acting smarter not just stronger. Brain and brawns.

 

[WooDaddy]

Originally posted by: yllus
3) And the problem with shutting off as many avenues of information as possible is?

Let's ponder on that statement for a moment....

Avenues... Let's see, radio, tv, cell phones, gps, other satellites, curfews, newspaper/media, normal human interaction. 1984? Military state?

That's the problem. Go to a country where they do that. You won't like it much.

 

[conjur]

WASHINGTON - President Bush has ordered plans for temporarily disabling the U.S. network of global positioning satellites during a national crisis to prevent terrorists from using the navigational technology, the White House said Wednesday.

Question is: What constitutes a "national crisis"?

Given this administration's propensity to declare terror alerts over hearing a terrorist fart, I fear for the worst.

 

[Genx87]

OMG /drama I wont beable to drive around my city with my GPS system enabled during a terrorist act!
So much for Bush curtailing policies to the gas guzzlers and rich!

Think about it, airlines rely on GPS more and just flipping a switch would create havoc. The airlines have contigingencies to fly without GPS but it takes planning.

afaik commercial flights are still using the old system of high altitude routes and VORs. I dont think they have allowed a widescale replacement of the old systems with GPS. But I believe they are working on it.

What bothers me is that his plan for disabling GPS satellites consists of blowing them up and then giving them tax breaks.

need proof.

Question is: What constitutes a "national crisis"?

Given this administration's propensity to declare terror alerts over hearing a terrorist fart, I fear for the worst.

Lets assume for a second they close it down for even the most frivelous of reasons? What exact harm will come to the avg joe from this? I cant find my way around the city? I cant calibrate my speedometers on my Mastercraft? WTF am I to do?!?!?!?!?

 

[yllus]

Originally posted by: WooDaddy
BTW, yllus, I'm not a one trick pony like most people who are into politics. I learn from what other people say. Hell I had to make corrections and I will continue to learn. There's no need to insult me saying it's the dumbest thread to be posted. Show me the inconsistencies and I'll listen and learn.

And also, I'm not complaining like you are. I'm actually providing suggestions for alternatives. Most people complain and add no value. I'm more so upset that the suggested solution is to shut it down even if temporarily. I could care less what the gov't does. They work in our best interests... sometimes. The tactic is very brute force and knee jerk. A smarter solution is to restrict access or encrypt or place an alternate, military use only satellite system. Leave GPS for us, create MIL-SPEC GPS for the US armed forces. I want to know my gov't and military is acting smarter not just stronger. Brain and brawns.

Inconsistencies? Your entire post was one huge inconsistency. Let's go over your points again.

1) How is it that military GPS can narrow down a location to one particular level of accuracy, and civilian GPS accuracy tops out at another? They can already distinguish between the two. Read what rudder wrote in his post. And again, this has nothing to do with the Internet or power lines or other media. This is building in the ability to chop off GPS access to civilians at the flip of a switch. Presumably this simple switching action does not yet exist, but certainly should.

This has nothing to do with curfews or other media. This is about building in technology that should have been there to begin with.

It's not "an infrastructure", it's just "infrastructure".

Point number one is dust.

2) There's a balance between national security and providing information to the public regarding money that needs to be spent to fix something. The administration picked the latter. No big deal really as it's likely the government would have to inform the public at some point anyways or run the risk of shutting off GPS and endangering something that absolutely relies on the system.

Your DUH point is ludicrous in the extreme.

3) Way to take what I said out of context. The good defence means closing as many holes as possible against your opponent. With this, America would be able to deny opposing forces use of its own GPS.

4-1000) Silly enough that I'll let it stand on its own.

Who's complaining? I'm all for fixing this hole. You're the one complaining about President Bush and jabbering on about control of "radio, tv, cell phones, gps, other satellites, curfews, newspaper/media, normal human interaction." 1984? Military state? Try a friggin' functionality fix.

 

[conjur]

Originally posted by: Genx87

Question is: What constitutes a "national crisis"?

Given this administration's propensity to declare terror alerts over hearing a terrorist fart, I fear for the worst.

Lets assume for a second they close it down for even the most frivelous of reasons? What exact harm will come to the avg joe from this? I cant find my way around the city? I cant calibrate my speedometers on my Mastercraft? WTF am I to do?!?!?!?!?

How about people hiking about that rely upon GPS devices?

Boaters on open waters?

Rescue crews looking for lost hikers/skiers?

And how about just the general giving in to terrorists so that terrorists win that psychological battle?

 

[Genx87]

How about people hiking about that rely upon GPS devices?

Boaters on open waters?

Rescue crews looking for lost hikers/skiers?

And how about just the general giving in to terrorists so that terrorists win that psychological battle?

OMG this is getting sad lol

What did these people do before gps??

 

[RabidMongoose]

Originally posted by: conjur

Originally posted by: Genx87

Question is: What constitutes a "national crisis"?

Given this administration's propensity to declare terror alerts over hearing a terrorist fart, I fear for the worst.

Lets assume for a second they close it down for even the most frivelous of reasons? What exact harm will come to the avg joe from this? I cant find my way around the city? I cant calibrate my speedometers on my Mastercraft? WTF am I to do?!?!?!?!?

How about people hiking about that rely upon GPS devices?

Boaters on open waters?

Rescue crews looking for lost hikers/skiers?

And how about just the general giving in to terrorists so that terrorists win that psychological battle?

I guess those boaters, hikers, and rescue crews might have a little trouble during an extreme national crisis.

Yes, I'm sure that it would be a tremendous psychological 'battle' should the US need to restrict the GPS once an extreme national emergency hits. :roll:

I think this is just a case of a bunch of rabid bush haters to whine and cry about anything to do with Bush. I hate the guy, but this isn't that big of a deal. I'm sure that we can all whine and cry about something else.

 

[yllus]

*scratches his head* What is getting lost in the pipeline here? I don't get it. It's plainly obvious - especially to the bunch of us who likely have some training in the technology sector - that you close every hole you can to potential attacks. GPS apparently has a hole right now; it can't be shut off in discrete areas in case of an emergency. What is wrong about correcting this omission? What does this have to do with the psychological battle with terrorists at all?

 

[Genx87]

*scratches his head* What is getting lost in the pipeline here?

It isnt that things are being lost in the pipeline. It is that there is a big blockage of sewer that requires liberals to hate anything Bush does. Doesnt matter how logical it is, if Bush does it, then it cant be good.