Bush plans to conquer the entire Middle East?

[BaliBabyDoc]

Jellybaby, I'm sure if you were around in the late 30's, 40's, you would be barking about how we should have just caved into Japan so they wouldn't have attacked Pearl Harbor. This same old routine is going on now, 60 years later.

Your statement defies logic. Japan was a truly imperialistic power that showed no respect for national borders or sovereignty. Oh I get it we are Japan!

If Japan had offered to carve up the Pac Rim and give the US its fair share do you think FDR might have given it a little thought? I'm not saying FDR would agree just that US foreign policy always has an angle other than the good of all men (and women).

 

[Nitemare]

Originally posted by: BaliBabyDoc

When a homicidal maniac has a gun pulled do the police wait until he has killed some people or do they eliminate the eventual outcome before it happens? The US, being the "worlds policeman", is just doing its job...trying to keep the world safe so you can wave your little peace symbols in the air and denounce our foreign policy.

As a soon to be licensed psychiatrist, here's my take on your pitiful analogy. Homicidal means you've killed before . . . I would probably keep you away from all weapons (guns, knives, tanks, intelligence about your enemies). Maniacs cannot maintain power b/c their impulses overcome their cognitive skills; ie they decisions defy logic. Furthermore, maniacs can NEVER be reasoned with . . . Saddam is not a maniac. He's a lying POS but many of his decisions are definitely well planned and executed.

Since it is too late to correct OUR past mistakes, the best plan of action would be to control our adversary by controllable, sustainable means. Your school of thought says INVADE. More measured individuals say start low, go slow and evaluate his capabilities . . . then maybe invade. The more your side talks the more you sound like maniacs.

I guess as a soon to be licensed psychiatrist that over 100 thousand Kurds being gassed to death under orders from a man does not make him a homicidal maniac
link
ma·ni·ac Pronunciation Key (mn-k)
n.

1.An insane person.
2.A person who has an excessive enthusiasm or desire for something: a sports maniac.
3.A person who acts in a wildly irresponsible way: maniacs on the highway.

I believe Hussein is the posterchild for 2 and 3, and until you give him a clear bill of health 3

 

[Nocturnal]

i think bush is the anti-christ.

 

[Chubs]

Originally posted by: Pacfanweb

Originally posted by: ndee
and you guys are still wondering why there is so much hatred against the US?

Yet if we do nothing, they bitch and moan and hate us for that. Let's face it: the middle east is made up primarily of barbaric people, period. Their standards and morals are below the Western world's levels. The only reason that anyone cares about that area at all is the oil. It is time for the people of the countries over there to move into at least the 19th century, if not the 20th.

I would ask this question: what gives barbarians like them the right to hold the world hostage simply because they have the oil? If they threaten us, and they have repeatedly, then in my opinion, they open themselves up to the possibility of countries like the USA coming over there and taking their damn oil fields away from them. So let them hate us. They always have, and always will, and I don't care. We've left them basically alone all these decades, as long as they left us alone. They started it, now we will finish it.

Question: At what point in the past 40 years have we done "nothing" in the middle east? Speaking specifically of Iraq - do you remember that we changed sides in the Iran/Iraq war more than once with our military support?

 

[JellyBaby]

Canada, Australia, and Switzerland may be equally free and wealthy, but they definitely AREN'T as wealthy as the United States and they aren't even in the same league when it comes to international standing as the United States.

Define "international standing" please.

Closing our eyes and trying to wish the problems of the world away while rocking in the corner weeping doesn't solve anything and we know this.

You have it backwards. I'm promoting a proactive solution to deal with the root causes of these problems. Right now we're applying bandaids to wounds we're helping to create.

Jellybaby, I'm sure if you were around in the late 30's, 40's, you would be barking about how we should have just caved into Japan so they wouldn't have attacked Pearl Harbor. This same old routine is going on now, 60 years later.

Well WW1 created WW2 but that's another issue. No, if I was around in the 40s I would have gladly joined the military to protect America. Japan was clearly seeking domination just as Germany and the rest of the axis powers tried to conquer Europe. Countries were invaded, crimes were committed, the proof was evident and the national security of America was threated.

Congress, the body of our government closest to the people, followed the Constitution and declared war. The cause was just, everything was at stake and America (eventually) believed with its heart it was doing the right thing. I hold all WW2 vets in the highest regard.

Speaking of that, has it ever occurred to you that ever since Congress stopped declaring war, we haven't had a wholesale victory in any conflict since?

 

[Chubs]

Originally posted by: bolsen

Look at world war 2. The British and French gave Hitler everything he wanted and there was still a war. Do you people really think that people like Saddam Hussien will actually go away?

wErd!

Take Clinton for example... he ignored the middle east... and it still hasn't gone away.

You guys are both morons. After WW1 there were severe economic sanctions against Germany. The outcome of that created so much distress in Germany it gave Hitler the platform he needed to take over power. Do they still teach history in our schools?

 

[Orsorum]

Originally posted by: Pacfanweb

Originally posted by: ndee
and you guys are still wondering why there is so much hatred against the US?

Yet if we do nothing, they bitch and moan and hate us for that. Let's face it: the middle east is made up primarily of barbaric people, period. Their standards and morals are below the Western world's levels. The only reason that anyone cares about that area at all is the oil. It is time for the people of the countries over there to move into at least the 19th century, if not the 20th.

I would ask this question: what gives barbarians like them the right to hold the world hostage simply because they have the oil? If they threaten us, and they have repeatedly, then in my opinion, they open themselves up to the possibility of countries like the USA coming over there and taking their damn oil fields away from them.

We don't agree with nearly all of the muslim extremists' views, but we don't go bombing their civilians and blowing up national landmarks to express our disapproval.
By doing so, they have opened up a can of worms that won't soon be closed.

So let them hate us. They always have, and always will, and I don't care. We've left them basically alone all these decades, as long as they left us alone.
They started it, now we will finish it.

You do realize that Europe, in the ten millennia or so that human civilization that we know it, has been a relative backwater continent? It was only in the last four hundred years or so that Europe has actually risen to any sort of credible prominence in the world scene.

As to why "all the Muslims hate us", I would take a look at the Crusades. A brutal, pointless series of wars that did nothing but push European military might on Islamic countries. For those of you claiming that Islam is nothing but a brutal, warlike religion, I would tell you to take a look at the Christian and Jewish traditions - their hands are no cleaner, their conscience no clearer.

This national bravado, macho bullshit is exactly what I'm sick of. When will people realize that it's not our job, it's not our place to police the world. They really can take care of themselves. If we get attacked by a sovereign nation, I'm all for retaliating, and with everything we have. I'm all for stopping the next Hitler. But I don't think the attitude that we have some sort of exclusive right, us alone, to enforce our interests, completely against the will and interests of the world population, is conducive to the results and the kind of world climate we want.

 

[Bluga]

I can't wait the day China nuke the hell out of USA

Until then, there's nothing can be done.

 

[Orsorum]

Originally posted by: Bluga
I can't wait the day China nuke the hell out of USA

Until then, there's nothing can be done.

 

[Nitemare]

Originally posted by: Zakath15

Originally posted by: Pacfanweb

Originally posted by: ndee
and you guys are still wondering why there is so much hatred against the US?

Yet if we do nothing, they bitch and moan and hate us for that. Let's face it: the middle east is made up primarily of barbaric people, period. Their standards and morals are below the Western world's levels. The only reason that anyone cares about that area at all is the oil. It is time for the people of the countries over there to move into at least the 19th century, if not the 20th.

I would ask this question: what gives barbarians like them the right to hold the world hostage simply because they have the oil? If they threaten us, and they have repeatedly, then in my opinion, they open themselves up to the possibility of countries like the USA coming over there and taking their damn oil fields away from them.

We don't agree with nearly all of the muslim extremists' views, but we don't go bombing their civilians and blowing up national landmarks to express our disapproval.
By doing so, they have opened up a can of worms that won't soon be closed.

So let them hate us. They always have, and always will, and I don't care. We've left them basically alone all these decades, as long as they left us alone.
They started it, now we will finish it.

You do realize that Europe, in the ten thousand or so millennia that human civilization that we know it, has been a relative backwater continent? It was only in the last four hundred years or so that Europe has actually risen to any sort of credible prominence in the world scene.

As to why "all the Muslims hate us", I would take a look at the Crusades. A brutal, pointless series of wars that did nothing but push European military might on Islamic countries. For those of you claiming that Islam is nothing but a brutal, warlike religion, I would tell you to take a look at the Christian and Jewish traditions - their hands are no cleaner, their conscience no clearer.

This national bravado, macho bullshit is exactly what I'm sick of. When will people realize that it's not our job, it's not our place to police the world. They really can take care of themselves. If we get attacked by a sovereign nation, I'm all for retaliating, and with everything we have. I'm all for stopping the next Hitler. But I don't think the attitude that we have some sort of exclusive right, us alone, to enforce our interests, completely against the will and interests of the world population, is conducive to the results and the kind of world climate we want.

The Ottoman Empire and the expansion of Muslims through Northern Africa, through Spain and into France was not exactly too peaceful of a movement either.

 

[Orsorum]

Originally posted by: Nitemare

The Ottoman Empire and the expansion of Muslims through Northern Africa, through Spain and into France was not exactly too peaceful of a movement either.

Never said it was.

 

[dexvx]

In the 33-page document, Mr. Bush also seeks to answer the critics of growing American muscle-flexing by insisting that the United States will exploit its military and economic power to encourage "free and open societies," rather than seek "unilateral advantage." It calls this union of values and national interests "a distinctly American internationalism."

Thats Imperialism at its best. Back to the 19th century colonial style!

The strategy document also states, for the first time, that the United States will never allow its military supremacy to be challenged the way it was during the cold war

Uh oh. Balance of power has always worked, and a collapse thereof will result in an unpredictable future.

"The most important thing is for us to find Osama bin Laden. It is our Number one priority and we will not rest until we find him!"
--George W. Bush, September 13, 2001

"I don't know where bin Laden is. I have no idea and I really don't care. It's not that important. It's not our priority."
--George W. Bush, March 13, 2002

"If fascism came to America it would be on a program of Americanism."
--Huey Long (senator/governor from the early 1900s)

 

[Nitemare]

Originally posted by: Bluga
I can't wait the day China nuke the hell out of USA

Until then, there's nothing can be done.

Does your mama know you excaped from daycare again?

 

[Nitemare]

Originally posted by: Nitemare

Originally posted by: Zakath15

Originally posted by: Pacfanweb

Originally posted by: ndee
and you guys are still wondering why there is so much hatred against the US?

Yet if we do nothing, they bitch and moan and hate us for that. Let's face it: the middle east is made up primarily of barbaric people, period. Their standards and morals are below the Western world's levels. The only reason that anyone cares about that area at all is the oil. It is time for the people of the countries over there to move into at least the 19th century, if not the 20th.

I would ask this question: what gives barbarians like them the right to hold the world hostage simply because they have the oil? If they threaten us, and they have repeatedly, then in my opinion, they open themselves up to the possibility of countries like the USA coming over there and taking their damn oil fields away from them.

We don't agree with nearly all of the muslim extremists' views, but we don't go bombing their civilians and blowing up national landmarks to express our disapproval.
By doing so, they have opened up a can of worms that won't soon be closed.

So let them hate us. They always have, and always will, and I don't care. We've left them basically alone all these decades, as long as they left us alone.
They started it, now we will finish it.

You do realize that Europe, in the ten thousand or so millennia that human civilization that we know it, has been a relative backwater continent? It was only in the last four hundred years or so that Europe has actually risen to any sort of credible prominence in the world scene.

As to why "all the Muslims hate us", I would take a look at the Crusades. A brutal, pointless series of wars that did nothing but push European military might on Islamic countries. For those of you claiming that Islam is nothing but a brutal, warlike religion, I would tell you to take a look at the Christian and Jewish traditions - their hands are no cleaner, their conscience no clearer.

This national bravado, macho bullshit is exactly what I'm sick of. When will people realize that it's not our job, it's not our place to police the world. They really can take care of themselves. If we get attacked by a sovereign nation, I'm all for retaliating, and with everything we have. I'm all for stopping the next Hitler. But I don't think the attitude that we have some sort of exclusive right, us alone, to enforce our interests, completely against the will and interests of the world population, is conducive to the results and the kind of world climate we want.

The Ottoman Empire and the expansion of Muslims through Northern Africa, through Spain and into France was not exactly too peaceful of a movement either.

But you never said the Crusades were in response for the conquering and enslavement of nations in the name of Muslims either now did you?

 

[alexruiz]

Originally posted by: Nitemare

Do a search
link

I think it's because we normally have to help third world countries because they can't help themselves and the rest of the world won't do anything about it

I guess I made the wrong question... I meant "who granted you the title of 'world policeman'"???? What privileges you have to act as the worl policeman????

Regarding the "help" to third world countries.... well no comments here.

 

[Orsorum]

Originally posted by: Nitemare

But you never said the Crusades were in response for the conquering and enslavement of nations in the name of Muslims either now did you?

Nope. I would also say that that's more indicative of Arab culture than it is of Islam.

 

[ToBeMe]

Originally posted by: Bluga
I can't wait the day China nuke the hell out of USA

Until then, there's nothing can be done.

And the DORK of the day award goes to.................

BTW...................as for the references to Germany, hitler etc. made above.....................someone close to Schroeder (German Chancellor for those whom may not know) made the same references yesterday to the media.......................................as of now, the President and the US ingeneral have received numerous apologies for the reference, Schroeder himself has called the President, and the BBC is saying it very well may cause him the election!

 

[Fatt]

Originally posted by: JellyBaby
Fatt,
It's nothing like a prison. Do you consider every country a criminal
locked up in a big cell called Earth?[\Q]



No, it's exactly like a prison and every nation on earth is like a prisoner
after the lights go out, the law of the jungle rules and there are no
guards around to save your ass.

And you know what?

We're not perfect but our way of life IS better than how most of the world
lives.

Our culture, in spite of it's flaws, IS better than almost everyone else.

Our nation, in spite of it's problems is the BEST place to live on this
whole stinking planet and if you don't know that you need to do some
traveling.


And you know what? If in the process of protecting our nation, it's people
and their way of life we have to depose an occasional dictator or impose
our political will on some backwater, then that's just fine.

Because if it wasn't for use we all be either WHITE and speaking German or
drunk on cheap vodka, speaking Russian and connecting to the internet on
2400 baud modems.

And if the rest of the world doesn't like it, they can just go screw
themselves. Considering everything America has done for the world to be
shown so much disrespect is offensive.

The rest of the world is mad at us?

Well guess what...
We're fed up with the rest of the world. Especially feckin FRANCE.

 

[Lucky]

Originally posted by: Bluga
I can't wait the day China nuke the hell out of USA

Until then, there's nothing can be done.

It's a shame china didnt force your mother to abort you.

 

[JellyBaby]

Fatt, I used to believe that exact philosophy. But it's been argued our intervention in WW I lead to most of the conflict in the 20th century and made the last 100 years the bloodist in the planet's history. It's also been argued WW II was a result of WW I. WW II, in turn, created the Soviet Empire and began the Cold War. Those events lead to Korea, Vietnam and now dozens more small regional conflicts.

It's hard to predict what would have happened had we not taken sides in WW I but it's argued subsequent conflicts may not have occurred. I do know our foreign policy shifted from reactive to proactive to, now, outright agressive. I also know whereever we have messed around the results have been American dead, a huge amount of taxpayer dollars expended and no wholesale/lasting solution. We've accumulated enemies and we're tolerated at best, often outright hated. At least, our government and the special interests that drive it are hated.

There must be a better way.

 

[Random Variable]

I was going to comment on the topic, but after reading about Bluga's wish to see the death of all Americans, I've changed my mind.

 

[EXman]

JellyBaby Remember a guy named Hitler? The western world appeased him for years. he annex the "Sudatenland" from Czechoslovakia (spell'n is bad) and still nothing. He wanted more and more... What is to stop Iraq and Saddam from invading one of its neighbors? Oh that is right He has already tried that! 1990-1991 Kuwait does that ring a bell? If he is nuke capable he will have the hole middle east by the short and curlies. if that happens all you SUV owners will have to go buy new metros or other high gas milage cars as gas prices skyrocket. If gas goes over $2-$3 a gallon there will be hell to pay. anyhow I stop this rant cause you probably will not even see it.

Look at it this way if your a whiny Al Gore lover... If he was President Saddam would have a green light to do whatever he chooses as Gore the treehugger wouldn't do anything more than ask for peace talks or some other lame excuse not to use force, even if it is clear he will pull another Kuwait type move or worse.

One last thing... Do you even realize that Saddam sends $25,000 US dollars to each and every family that has a member that commits an act of terrorism in Israel? He does and that is state sponsored terrorism plain and simple.

GO BUSH WHIP SADDAM!

</rant>

 

[Orsorum]

We stopped Saddam when he invaded Kuwait, and we will stop him again.

What I am against is pre-emptive measures - if Saddam has done nothing to warrant military retaliation, then leave it be.

He expelled the weapons inspectors from the UN - let the UN handle it.

 

[EXman]

He expelled the weapons inspectors from the UN - let the UN handle it.

getting that many countries to decide something like war against a almost nuclear Iraq is a Joke. come on now we cannot be an Isolationist state anymore. We are the worlds economy and it's policemen. Not the UN weenies. the UN is a JOKE. Saddam knows that untill he pulls another Kuwait or worse he has free reign to stockpile any sort of weapons his Oil buys period. If we sit on our hands and let a mad man Neo-Hitler go nuclear it is not the UN's problem, but it is their fault and ours for being foolish enough to think the UN has any real power over Iraq. Saddam can only be delt with in one way and that is by a show of force, that is the only way he'll get our drift.

 

[joohang]

I don't have much to contribute but I'll ask a few questions.

getting that many countries to decide something like war against a almost nuclear Iraq is a Joke.

Oh. Then..

We are the worlds economy and it's policemen.

Really? How so?

So you don't care about what the world thinks or what the world decides to do about Iraq but you think that USA is a policeman that represents the world?

Not the UN weenies. the UN is a JOKE.

How is UN a weenie and how is it a joke?

If we sit on our hands and let a mad man Neo-Hitler go nuclear it is not the UN's problem, but it is their fault and ours for being foolish enough to think the UN has any real power over Iraq. Saddam can only be delt with in one way and that is by a show of force, that is the only way he'll get our drift.

How is Hussein a Neo-Hitler? Simply because he attempted to annex Kuwait? Or because the world is adopting an "appeasement" policy to Iraq? Does that make North Korea another Nazi Germany as well? Or any nation in the world today that shows any element that somewhat resembles the doings of Hitler's Germany?