Bush Photographed wearing Air Force Award he Never Won

[charrison]

Originally posted by: Infohawk

Originally posted by: charrison

It is assigned to the unit, not the person.

YOu should read mastertechs post from above, you might learn something.

I did read it. :roll: Just because something isn't illegal doesn't make it right.

Again, there's a timing issue that needs to be explained. Wanna refer me to another person's post or do you want to be a big boy and post for yourself?

There is nothing illegal or unusual about this. Units earn these and they keep them. As mastertech points out, there are units that still wear awards from WWI.

 

[Don Vito Corleone]

Originally posted by: mastertech01

Its not that easy.. he would have had to meet all these qualifiers..

Elements.

(1) That the accused wore a certain insignia, decoration, badge, ribbon, device, or lapel button upon the accused?s uniform or civilian clothing;

(2) That the accused was not authorized to wear the item;

(3) That the wearing was wrongful; and

(4) That, under the circumstances, the conduct of the accused was to the prejudice of good order and discipline in the armed forces or was of a nature to bring discredit upon the armed forces.

LOL - No offense, but I've been an active-duty JAG for nearly six years, 3 of which were dedicated entirely to military justice, on both the prosecution and government sides. I just didn't think it was worth listing the actual elements, which would tend to be misleading to a layperson.

Essentially, any unauthorized wear of a decoration would meet these elements, absent some clear, but erroneous justification (if, for example, the member's record erronously authorized the wearing) - this would go to Element 3, because in that situation the wearing would arguably not be "wrongful," just as it isn't legally wrongful for an undercover drugs-enforcement agent to use drugs as part of his cover.

The Military Judge's Benchbook actually includes an instruction to the effect that Element 4 can be presumed to be satisfied, if the other elements are met.

This article is seldom enforced, but it is on occasion. I actually helped draft an Art 15 against a tentmate of mine when I was deployed, because he wrongfully wore the rank of MSgt a couple of months before his actual promotion date.

 

[Don Vito Corleone]

Originally posted by: charrison

It is assigned to the unit, not the person.

YOu should read mastertechs post from above, you might learn something.

That wouldn't excuse unauthorized wearing (though, again, I am NOT implying President Bush violated the law).

You can only wear the Outstanding Unit Award if your unit wins it WHILE YOU ARE A MEMBER OF THE UNIT. I have one OUA, but have also missed it by a month or two in two different units, because it was awarded just before I arrived, or just after I left.

 

[Don Vito Corleone]

Originally posted by: charrison

There is nothing illegal or unusual about this. Units earn these and they keep them. As mastertech points out, there are units that still wear awards from WWI.

I have never heard of this practice, which is plainly illegal, and I think you're misunderstanding what's taking place. The UNIT can keep its old OUA citations (very often, the unit will have a plaque exhibiting the OUA, along with all the devices they've earned over the years), but a member attached to the unit can only wear it if it was earned during his service in the unit. You don't magically inherit your unit's past citations by virtue of joining it.

 

[dahunan]

Originally posted by: DonVito

Originally posted by: conjur

Originally posted by: outriding
I remember seeing about a year ago on "Mail Call" where gunny was talking about the different types of medals and he said it is actually againts the law to where a medal that you did not deserve. Now I cant remember what medal / medals he was talking about but does anyone know if this medal is illegal to wear if you did not earn it?

Not sure but remember the case of that Admiral (I believe it was an Admiral) that was found to be wearing medals and awards he did not earn and he later committed suicide?

He was actually the Navy Chief of Staff. He was, I believe, wearing a combat V (for valor) on his Vietnam campaign medal that he wasn't entitled to wear. I imagine there were other factors in his suicide as well, but that was the immediate triggering event, or so it appeared.

To answer outriding's question, yes, it is illegal to wear a military decoration you are not entitled to. Under Art 134, UCMJ, this offense can be punished by a maximum sentence of a Bad-Conduct Discharge (or, for a commissioned officer, Dismissal), forfeiture of all pay and allowances, reduction to E-1 (for enlisted only; officers can't be reduced), and confinement for 6 months.

I am in any way implying President Bush committed this offense.

The statute of limitations under the UCMJ is 5 years, for non-capital offenses like this.

Was Bush ever legitimately discharged from the service?

AWOL
Bad Conduct Discharge..

no real difference

 

[charrison]

Originally posted by: dahunan

Originally posted by: DonVito

Originally posted by: conjur

Originally posted by: outriding
I remember seeing about a year ago on "Mail Call" where gunny was talking about the different types of medals and he said it is actually againts the law to where a medal that you did not deserve. Now I cant remember what medal / medals he was talking about but does anyone know if this medal is illegal to wear if you did not earn it?

Not sure but remember the case of that Admiral (I believe it was an Admiral) that was found to be wearing medals and awards he did not earn and he later committed suicide?

He was actually the Navy Chief of Staff. He was, I believe, wearing a combat V (for valor) on his Vietnam campaign medal that he wasn't entitled to wear. I imagine there were other factors in his suicide as well, but that was the immediate triggering event, or so it appeared.

To answer outriding's question, yes, it is illegal to wear a military decoration you are not entitled to. Under Art 134, UCMJ, this offense can be punished by a maximum sentence of a Bad-Conduct Discharge (or, for a commissioned officer, Dismissal), forfeiture of all pay and allowances, reduction to E-1 (for enlisted only; officers can't be reduced), and confinement for 6 months.

I am in any way implying President Bush committed this offense.

The statute of limitations under the UCMJ is 5 years, for non-capital offenses like this.

Was Bush ever legitimately discharged from the service?

AWOL
Bad Conduct Discharge..

no real difference

Yes he received an honorable discharge.

 

[burnedout]

Originally posted by: mastertech01
Unit citations dont mean jack anyway. Many soldiers wear unit citations their units won during WWI, WWII, and other wars.

Well, with Army, that's the case. Not sure about USAF though.

 

[mastertech01]

Originally posted by: DonVito

Originally posted by: charrison

There is nothing illegal or unusual about this. Units earn these and they keep them. As mastertech points out, there are units that still wear awards from WWI.

I have never heard of this practice, which is plainly illegal, and I think you're misunderstanding what's taking place. The UNIT can keep its old OUA citations (very often, the unit will have a plaque exhibiting the OUA, along with all the devices they've earned over the years), but a member attached to the unit can only wear it if it was earned during his service in the unit. You don't magically inherit your unit's past citations by virtue of joining it.

I was in numerous Army units that recieved WWII permanent citations that WHILE YOU WERE ASSIGNED to the unit, the ribbons for that award were part of your uniform. Maybe the citation you describe is a different kind of award, specific to your service.

 

[glenn1]

I have never heard of this practice, which is plainly illegal, and I think you're misunderstanding what's taking place. The UNIT can keep its old OUA citations (very often, the unit will have a plaque exhibiting the OUA, along with all the devices they've earned over the years), but a member attached to the unit can only wear it if it was earned during his service in the unit.

Don't know what branch you JAG'ed for, but in the Army unit citation ribbons are part of the uniform for assigned cadre. For example, I served in 5th Special Forces Group, which had a couple of Army Presidential Unit awards, two Army Valorous Unit awards, and an Army Superior Unit award, and everyone assigned to the unit wore them. If you were assigned while the award was granted, you get to keep it permanently, otherwise the awards come off when you PCS from the unit. Of course this may have changed in the 6 years since I've been out, but I kinda doubt it.

Reading from the story, however, it seems the Air Force doesn't work that way.

 

[Jhhnn]

The whole thing is a little murky, that's for sure, but I susppect that military historians will sort it out soon.

There are a lot of intricacies to this stuff, and some citations do stay with a unit, becoming part of their uniform, like the French fourragere awarded to the 2nd Marines for their heroism in the battle of Belleau Woods...

Having never been in the military, I'm in no position to determine the truth of the matter. From what I've seen in the past, however, vets regard anybody wearing ribbons they don't deserve as lower than whalesh!t... particularly a wet behind the ears 2nd looie...

 

[Don Vito Corleone]

Originally posted by: glenn1

Don't know what branch you JAG'ed for, but in the Army unit citation ribbons are part of the uniform for assigned cadre. For example, I served in 5th Special Forces Group, which had a couple of Army Presidential Unit awards, two Army Valorous Unit awards, and an Army Superior Unit award, and everyone assigned to the unit wore them. If you were assigned while the award was granted, you get to keep it permanently, otherwise the awards come off when you PCS from the unit. Of course this may have changed in the 6 years since I've been out, but I kinda doubt it.

Reading from the story, however, it seems the Air Force doesn't work that way.

I'm in the Air Force. In the AF, for this particular decoration, you must be a member of the unit at the time the unit wins it to wear the OUA. At that point it becomes a permanent part of your records, and you can wear it throughout your career. You can't ever wear it unless you were a member of the unit when the award was given (and I think that's where we differ from the practice you're describing). As I said, I have just missed two OUAs, but I have one, because my then-organization won it through an inspection when I was a member.

You can't, under any circumstances, in the Air Force, wear an OUA due to your unit having won it in the past, if you weren't attached to the unit at the time.

 

[charrison]

Originally posted by: DonVito

Originally posted by: glenn1

Don't know what branch you JAG'ed for, but in the Army unit citation ribbons are part of the uniform for assigned cadre. For example, I served in 5th Special Forces Group, which had a couple of Army Presidential Unit awards, two Army Valorous Unit awards, and an Army Superior Unit award, and everyone assigned to the unit wore them. If you were assigned while the award was granted, you get to keep it permanently, otherwise the awards come off when you PCS from the unit. Of course this may have changed in the 6 years since I've been out, but I kinda doubt it.

Reading from the story, however, it seems the Air Force doesn't work that way.

I'm in the Air Force. In the AF, for this particular decoration, you must be a member of the unit at the time the unit wins it to wear the OUA. At that point it becomes a permanent part of your records, and you can wear it throughout your career. You can't ever wear it unless you were a member of the unit when the award was given (and I think that's where we differ from the practice you're describing). As I said, I have just missed two OUAs, but I have one, because my then-organization won it through an inspection when I was a member.

You can't, under any circumstances, in the Air Force, wear an OUA due to your unit having won it in the past, if you weren't attached to the unit at the time.

Those are the current regs, but have the changed in the past 30 years. This topic was discussed in another forum and i gathered from that thread that you were allowed to wear the unit award while you were in the unit. It did not become part of you permanent record unless you were in the unit when it was awarded. Maybe you can verify this?

 

[glenn1]

There are a lot of intricacies to this stuff, and some citations do stay with a unit, becoming part of their uniform, like the French fourragere awarded to the 2nd Marines for their heroism in the battle of Belleau Woods...

Just keeping track of what you're supposed to wear can be a PITA, not to mention expensive. A lot of folks set up their Class A's once and forget about it, it takes forever to get everything in the right spot, lined up correctly, and all shined up. Hell, there were awards I got that I never bothered to wear because I didn't feel like having to redo my uniform....

Having never been in the military, I'm in no position to determine the truth of the matter. From what I've seen in the past, however, vets regard anybody wearing ribbons they don't deserve as lower than whalesh!t... particularly a wet behind the ears 2nd looie...

Partly depends on what the award is. Wearing an Distinguished Service Cross you didn't earn is a lot different than wearing a set of Egyptian jump wings instead of Kuwaiti wings because they're a helluva lot cheaper and no one can tell the difference anyway (I can speak from experience on that one, although I earned both and a whole lot more than that) or one knot too many or too few on your Good Conduct medal.

 

[Don Vito Corleone]

Originally posted by: charrison

Those are the current regs, but have the changed in the past 30 years. This topic was discussed in another forum and i gathered from that thread that you were allowed to wear the unit award while you were in the unit. It did not become part of you permanent record unless you were in the unit when it was awarded. Maybe you can verify this?

I guess it's possible, but it strikes me as unlikely. This would effectively have given everyone in the AF the right to wear the OUA, since presumably their unit would have won it at some point in the past, so it would become a meaningless decoration. It's not like a campaign ribbon - it's given anytime a unit does well on an inspection.

I guess I can try to look this up, but again it seems improbable to me the rule has changed.

 

[burnedout]

Originally posted by: glenn1

Partly depends on what the award is. Wearing an Army Cross you didn't earn is a lot different than wearing a set of Egyptian jump wings instead of Kuwaiti wings because they're a helluva lot cheaper and no one can tell the difference anyway (I can speak from experience on that one, although I earned both and a whole lot more than that) or one knot too many or too few on your Good Conduct medal.

Yeah, you're right. For foreign awards, I earned the Schützenschnur, German NBC badge (Bronze), French Commando badge (3 week "weenie" course) and, get this; Belgian Jump wings.

According to the older AR, only one foreign award could be worn on the class A uniform at any given time. The Belgian jump wings may come back to haunt me if I ever seek public office though because I wasn't on jump status at the time.

You're absolutely correct about keeping up with unit awards. During those dreaded class A inspections by the Bn or Bde CSM, you didn't dare let them inspect you in formation without those ribbons over the right pocket.

 

[charrison]

Originally posted by: DonVito

Originally posted by: charrison

Those are the current regs, but have the changed in the past 30 years. This topic was discussed in another forum and i gathered from that thread that you were allowed to wear the unit award while you were in the unit. It did not become part of you permanent record unless you were in the unit when it was awarded. Maybe you can verify this?

I guess it's possible, but it strikes me as unlikely. This would effectively have given everyone in the AF the right to wear the OUA, since presumably their unit would have won it at some point in the past, so it would become a meaningless decoration. It's not like a campaign ribbon - it's given anytime a unit does well on an inspection.

I guess I can try to look this up, but again it seems improbable to me the rule has changed.

I would be interested in the answer.

 

[smashp]

this has actually been an interesting Discussion in this thread, without alot of flaming.

What I gathered from the article was the date of the picture was many years before this particular OUA was given to his Unit. So the Case Wearing awards your unit has been awarded in the Past, is interesting, but not relevant.


I do know the Airborn units have some of these unit citations for their actions in WW2

 

[glenn1]

I guess it's possible, but it strikes me as unlikely. This would effectively have given everyone in the AF the right to wear the OUA, since presumably their unit would have won it at some point in the past, so it would become a meaningless decoration. It's not like a campaign ribbon - it's given anytime a unit does well on an inspection.

I guess I can try to look this up, but again it seems improbable to me the rule has changed.

Just out of curiosity, how much prestige does an OUA carry in the Air Force? My experience from the Army is that unit awards are about as inconsequential as an Army Service Ribbon or Expert Driver Badge (yes, they have something special for those truck drivers out there). Hell, what with packing unit awards, jump wings, air assault wings (lameass as they are), weapons qual badges for almost every system the Army offers a badge for, and often rigger rings and foreign jump wings we had privates running around with more hardware than some first sergeants in service support units......

 

[Don Vito Corleone]

Originally posted by: glenn1

Just out of curiosity, how much prestige does an OUA carry in the Air Force? My experience from the Army is that unit awards are about as inconsequential as an Army Service Ribbon or Expert Driver Badge (yes, they have something special for those truck drivers out there). Hell, what with packing unit awards, jump wings, air assault wings (lameass as they are), weapons qual badges for almost every system the Army offers a badge for, and often rigger rings and foreign jump wings we had privates running around with more hardware than some first sergeants in service support units......

Little to none, I'd say. I don't really see this as a sinister accusation, since I can't imagine anyone wearing the OUA unauthorized to show off, or pick up chicks, or whatever. I think it's likelier there was a misunderstanding on whether or not he was authorized to wear it.

I will say that when all I had was the training ribbon, I REALLY, REALLY wanted a second ribbon! I did a few courts in which I prosecuted people with healthy racks, wearing just my training ribbon.

I have done a bit of research on this topic, and I'm fairly confident the AF never authorized temporary wear of the OUA (presumably since, as I said, allowing it would effectively have given everyone in the AF the award).

I believe the Army still authorizes temporary wear of the Army Presidential Unit Citation, Valorous Unit Award, Meritorious Unit Commendation, and Superior Unit Award, but I don't think the AF ever allowed temporary wear of the OUA.

 

[glenn1]

According to the older AR, only one foreign award could be worn on the class A uniform at any given time. The Belgian jump wings may come back to haunt me if I ever seek public office though because I wasn't on jump status at the time.

Don't remember what Belgian wings look like. Although the unwritten rule was that you were supposed to wear the set you most recently earned, everyone typically wore the one that they thought looked most badass. I remember in my unit that Indian jump wings (the one with elephants in the risers) were the ones everyone lusted after. And no worries, I won't tell on you that you weren't on status, if anyone asks just tell them you were on an extra-extended jump rule three exclusion

 

[burnedout]

glenn1: LOL, not to hijack the thread, but do you remember the days when a soldier could wear a foreign award on their regular duty uniform? Man, back when we wore pickle suits before the BDU days, people (me included) had all kinds of crap on.

Back on topic: I'm speculating from an Army perspective, but wondering if the unit President Bush took his flight training with won the OUA while he was assigned to it?

 

[ianbergman]

^ for edit: photo on display @ Bush presidential library; still no comment from White House. I would have no problem with Bush coming out and saying "oops, my bad, i mean come on, it's not the medal of valor," but the silence is annoying.

 

[chess9]

As I recall, that was a big no-no in the Corps. But, as MasterTech said, it should be no big deal as it's not as though he pinned on a Silver Star.

From an ethical standpoint, though, I don't think it should be done.

-Robert

 

[EagleKeeper]

More importantly, however, the above photograph had to have been taken some time between his qualifying as a pilot?since he is wearing his pilots? wings?on November 26, 1969 and his promotion to First Lieutenant on November 7, 1970, since he is listed as a Second Lieutenant (see photograph below).

An issue is that the photo is not indicated to be dated.

The photo is black/white, not color.

The rank bar color would be a light brown for a 2LT and Silver for 1LT. With a BW photo it can be hard to tell without reflective reference points.

The caption in the library may not have either known the difference or kown the date the photo was taken.

If he is actually a 1LT in the phot, then the award is valid.

Left shoulder is not visible in the photo and the angle on the right does not provide a large amount of surface area to analyze the reflection.

 

[Train]

Originally posted by: burnedout
glenn1: LOL, not to hijack the thread, but do you remember the days when a soldier could wear a foreign award on their regular duty uniform?

The 5th and 6th Marine Regiments still wear the French Fourragere, awarded in 1918 by the French Ministry of War

History of the French Fourragere of the 5th Marines

I'm pretty sure theres a few other forieng awarded decorations that are still around, this is the only one i could think of though.