Bush is unreal.

[beyoku]

Originally posted by: Wheezer

Originally posted by: MartyTheManiak
I don't know if he's cruel and arrogant, or actually believes in the stuff he says.

"We have got a great United States military,'' the president said in Alabama. "And some of the best have fallen in service to our fellow Americans.
"We mourn every loss. We honour every name. We grieve with every family. And we will always be grateful that liberty has found such brave defenders.''
Liberty's home is America, Bush said to sustained applause.
"We're freedom's defender,'' he said. "We understand that the advance of human liberty is in our national interest.''

I mean, if someone close to me had gotten killed in Iraq and the guy reponsible for this whole mess gave a speech full of clichéd freedom remarks, I'd be really really pissed.

People like you will never understand. Ever. What you fail to see is that not everyone thinks the way you do. Some of us are PROUD of our military sions, daughter, brothers, sisters, fathers and mothers who are willing to sacrifice thier lives for what they believe in. q]

you should rephrase that "kill for what they believe in."

 

[smashp]

Originally posted by: beyoku

Originally posted by: Wheezer

Originally posted by: MartyTheManiak
I don't know if he's cruel and arrogant, or actually believes in the stuff he says.

"We have got a great United States military,'' the president said in Alabama. "And some of the best have fallen in service to our fellow Americans.
"We mourn every loss. We honour every name. We grieve with every family. And we will always be grateful that liberty has found such brave defenders.''
Liberty's home is America, Bush said to sustained applause.
"We're freedom's defender,'' he said. "We understand that the advance of human liberty is in our national interest.''

I mean, if someone close to me had gotten killed in Iraq and the guy reponsible for this whole mess gave a speech full of clichéd freedom remarks, I'd be really really pissed.

People like you will never understand. Ever. What you fail to see is that not everyone thinks the way you do. Some of us are PROUD of our military sions, daughter, brothers, sisters, fathers and mothers who are willing to sacrifice thier lives for what they believe in. q]

you should rephrase that "kill for what they believe in."

Some of us are PROUD of our military sions, daughter, brothers, sisters, fathers and mothers who are willing to sacrifice thier lives for what they believe in


not to take anything away from this but soldiers usually die because of someone elses beliefs and goals.

 

[GrGr]

Originally posted by: Gaard

Originally posted by: maluckey
As a former soldier, and disabled veteran, I have a different point of view than most of the immature people that spout off in these forums.

I would follow my leader down the barrel of a loaded gun if asked to do so for my country. I would, so that that the rest of the pathetic knee-jerk idiots could go on spouting the crap that they spew. My attitude is common for a Combat MOS soldier. I wouldn't want to live in terror, and I assume that nobody else in the U.S. would either. Get your head out of the sand, and protest something that helps people be better humans, like genocide in Africa, ethnic cleansing, racism in America, or the erosion of family values world-wide. The United States is not your enemy, you are.

Liberals spout Anti-Bush rhetoric till they are blue, but when they and their cronies sent a few thousand troops to Somalia to quell a civil war then, cut and ran from genocide when they weren't immediately successfull in defeating the millions of combatants, nobody screamed. Task force Smith, comes to mind, but I doubt that any on this forum, even know about that history lesson. When they ordered non-stop bombing of Kosovo, nobody shed a tear. I guess it's because liberals think about themselves and this self entitlement is all-consuming.

The United States has the power to save millions of lives, or to take them. We saved millions in Iraq, and allowed a better future for them, regardless of the reasons or motives. The soldiers that fought and died for the Iraqi people, did so voluntarily. You all degrade my opinion of humanity by thinking that a single soldiers life is more important than thousands of innocents saved. Saddam was a thug! Protest the oppressive policies in Cuba, or the corruption in Mexico. Do something useful for a change.

This is the part many are upset about. Some folks can't understand how others can say things like this..."Good came of it so the reasons/motives are unimportant. The fact that we may have been misled/lied to is unimportant, Saddam is gone."

You have my thanks for your service and sacrifice....I have disabled vets in my family. But, many think that the boys in Iraq who gave as much as you, and sadly some gave the ultimate sacrifice, did so unneccessarily.

The problem with Bush's war in Iraq is that Bush launched a preventive war, not even a pre-emptive war that might in some circumstances be excusable, or a defensive war. Preventive war is what Hitler, for example, did when he launched Operation Barbarossa against the Soviets. War for political expediency and profeteering is not something that behooves the US or it's armed forces. Bush has misused the armed forces for his own political ends. Bush is killing and maiming US soldiers for his own political ends.

The reason the US invaded Iraq has nothing to do with the fact that Saddam was a thug. President Bush is now trying to make that claim but it is just another lie in the long line of lies that Bush has used as excuses for his war.

 

[smashp]

Originally posted by: GrGr

Originally posted by: Gaard

Originally posted by: maluckey
As a former soldier, and disabled veteran, I have a different point of view than most of the immature people that spout off in these forums.

I would follow my leader down the barrel of a loaded gun if asked to do so for my country. I would, so that that the rest of the pathetic knee-jerk idiots could go on spouting the crap that they spew. My attitude is common for a Combat MOS soldier. I wouldn't want to live in terror, and I assume that nobody else in the U.S. would either. Get your head out of the sand, and protest something that helps people be better humans, like genocide in Africa, ethnic cleansing, racism in America, or the erosion of family values world-wide. The United States is not your enemy, you are.

Liberals spout Anti-Bush rhetoric till they are blue, but when they and their cronies sent a few thousand troops to Somalia to quell a civil war then, cut and ran from genocide when they weren't immediately successfull in defeating the millions of combatants, nobody screamed. Task force Smith, comes to mind, but I doubt that any on this forum, even know about that history lesson. When they ordered non-stop bombing of Kosovo, nobody shed a tear. I guess it's because liberals think about themselves and this self entitlement is all-consuming.

The United States has the power to save millions of lives, or to take them. We saved millions in Iraq, and allowed a better future for them, regardless of the reasons or motives. The soldiers that fought and died for the Iraqi people, did so voluntarily. You all degrade my opinion of humanity by thinking that a single soldiers life is more important than thousands of innocents saved. Saddam was a thug! Protest the oppressive policies in Cuba, or the corruption in Mexico. Do something useful for a change.

This is the part many are upset about. Some folks can't understand how others can say things like this..."Good came of it so the reasons/motives are unimportant. The fact that we may have been misled/lied to is unimportant, Saddam is gone."

You have my thanks for your service and sacrifice....I have disabled vets in my family. But, many think that the boys in Iraq who gave as much as you, and sadly some gave the ultimate sacrifice, did so unneccessarily.

The problem with Bush's war in Iraq is that Bush launched a preventive war, not even a pre-emptive war that might in some circumstances be excusable, or a defensive war. Preventive war is what Hitler, for example, did when he launched Operation Barbarossa against the Soviets. War for political expediency and profeteering is not something that behooves the US or it's armed forces. Bush has misused the armed forces for his own political ends. Bush is killing and maiming US soldiers for his own political ends.

The reason the US invaded Iraq has nothing to do with the fact that Saddam was a thug. President Bush is now trying to make that claim but it is just another lie in the long line of lies that Bush has used as excuses for his war.

After 9/11 and the quick success we had against sparatic militant nomads in afghanistan, I would find it more likely that many people with agenda's found Bush as an easy person to manipulate in reguards of Iraq considering we ALL KNOW he holds a PERSONAL Grudge with Saddam due to incidents his father experienced.

 

[Pers]

Originally posted by: tallest1
Yay, more "Liberals hate America" posts!

Listen up. Just because I am against the war doesn't mean I am pro-Sadaam. It doesn't mean I'm anti-soldier. It doesn't mean I'm against helping people. But in case you forgot, war isn't always the answer. Your high and mighty leader broke more international treaties than any president in US history. Does that make you feel nice and cozy inside? Do you feel happy that other countries can use OUR logic to "liberate the palestinian/Americans/South-Koreans/what-have-you"?

I agree that there is a mess in Iraq and I thank God for every soldier there. Hell, I'd support our troops if we declared war on Europe. But for you republicans to wrap yourselves in a flag and accuse us of hating our own people is dead wrong. We hate the war, therefore we have beef with Bush, not our troops. But to see Bush hiding the realities of war by banning the media from funerals, from pretending the Iraqis want us there, from using pathetic 9-11/freedom rheteric to get what he wants, from giving the international community the middle finger and then doing it again when they don't help, and then from blaming the CIA and his own people for his faults, he hits on my bad side. 15 million people simultaneously protested against this war. Would you like to say, they're all Anti-american too? How about the UN? They don't know jack do they? World peace? Nah, we don't need them. We can do it ourselves.

And gawd, need I even mention how our arogant acts are breeding even more terrorists? Those future terrorists are going to go for your children while they're still paying the bill for this war.

Lets just round up everyone who hates us and "our freedoms" ('cause terrorists HATE freedom and LOVE chaos *rolls eyes*) and kill 'em all. That way everyone will love us. Yeah..... right.

I seriously would like to know what it would take for you neocons to actually hate your president. Peace must get you folks antsy or something.

comparing this post to posts by people like maluckey ( who thinks his opinion is gold because he served in the military) def. makes you wonder if there is a correlation between intelligence and a person's stance on the iraq war.

 

[Doboji]

Yay, more "Liberals hate America" posts!

Listen up. Just because I am against the war doesn't mean I am pro-Sadaam. It doesn't mean I'm anti-soldier. It doesn't mean I'm against helping people. But in case you forgot, war isn't always the answer. Your high and mighty leader broke more international treaties than any president in US history. Does that make you feel nice and cozy inside? Do you feel happy that other countries can use OUR logic to "liberate the palestinian/Americans/South-Koreans/what-have-you"?

I agree that there is a mess in Iraq and I thank God for every soldier there. Hell, I'd support our troops if we declared war on Europe. But for you republicans to wrap yourselves in a flag and accuse us of hating our own people is dead wrong. We hate the war, therefore we have beef with Bush, not our troops. But to see Bush hiding the realities of war by banning the media from funerals, from pretending the Iraqis want us there, from using pathetic 9-11/freedom rheteric to get what he wants, from giving the international community the middle finger and then doing it again when they don't help, and then from blaming the CIA and his own people for his faults, he hits on my bad side. 15 million people simultaneously protested against this war. Would you like to say, they're all Anti-american too? How about the UN? They don't know jack do they? World peace? Nah, we don't need them. We can do it ourselves.

And gawd, need I even mention how our arogant acts are breeding even more terrorists? Those future terrorists are going to go for your children while they're still paying the bill for this war.

Lets just round up everyone who hates us and "our freedoms" ('cause terrorists HATE freedom and LOVE chaos *rolls eyes*) and kill 'em all. That way everyone will love us. Yeah..... right.

I seriously would like to know what it would take for you neocons to actually hate your president. Peace must get you folks antsy or something.

First off, excellent post. I agree with you that most american protestors, do not hate America. However sadly that doesnt hold true of the many organizers of the protests. Take as much time as you do to trace the money trails back to Haliburton, to trace the money trails from organizations like ANSWER. What you'll find is a nice set of anti-american, anti-capitalist organizations utilizing your support to achieve their own objectives. Which, I emphasize, are different then you and your fellow protestors.

Furthermore it would have been one thing if you were protesting before the war, to gain international support, and protesting to protect the treaties you mentioned Bush breaking. But the reality is you were protesting the concept of any action in Iraq whatsoever. You and your fellow protestors marched in utter denial of a true problem that America faces today. And as much as I wish that war was no longer a reality of this planet... we would all be fools to claim that it actually is. And thus to address world issues from the perspective, of no force options, is not only naive... it is suicidal.

As for the other "travesties" you mention, I could argue with nearly all of them... such as the banning media from funerals... just say the following outloud... "We should allow the bloodsucking overdramatic media to cover the funerals of killed soldiers, funerals where the press can get access to and harass the families of those soldiers."

And you hold up the UN as an example of world peace in action... and yet the UN has failed miserably in protecting human rights, when member states often those who have the MOST grievous human rights records, such as Libya or Syria actually sit as heads of the Human Rights committee. The UN is a corrupt joke, and we must come to terms with, and deal with that problem, lest we lose everything good the UN still is and could be.

And yet all you protestors seem to see is Bush, Iraq, Israel and Palestine. Nevermind Africa, nevermind the incredibly corrupt Saudi regime. Nevermind the Chechnyan conflict, or the very scary ever present tensions between India and Pakistan. There are thousands of conflicts on this planet of ours, with tyrannical dictators and suffering people. Why is it you only focus on the US/Iraq, and Israel/Palestine... two conflicts who actually have the least human rights violations of any conflicts in the history of mankind?... At some point you must wake up and recognize your own fishbowl induced bias, and then come back down to the planet earth and reality.

I respect your opinion, but cannot help but see your idealistic naivete.

-Max

 

[tallest1]

Originally posted by: Doboji

Yay, more "Liberals hate America" posts!

Listen up. Just because I am against the war doesn't mean I am pro-Sadaam. It doesn't mean I'm anti-soldier. It doesn't mean I'm against helping people. But in case you forgot, war isn't always the answer. Your high and mighty leader broke more international treaties than any president in US history. Does that make you feel nice and cozy inside? Do you feel happy that other countries can use OUR logic to "liberate the palestinian/Americans/South-Koreans/what-have-you"?

I agree that there is a mess in Iraq and I thank God for every soldier there. Hell, I'd support our troops if we declared war on Europe. But for you republicans to wrap yourselves in a flag and accuse us of hating our own people is dead wrong. We hate the war, therefore we have beef with Bush, not our troops. But to see Bush hiding the realities of war by banning the media from funerals, from pretending the Iraqis want us there, from using pathetic 9-11/freedom rheteric to get what he wants, from giving the international community the middle finger and then doing it again when they don't help, and then from blaming the CIA and his own people for his faults, he hits on my bad side. 15 million people simultaneously protested against this war. Would you like to say, they're all Anti-american too? How about the UN? They don't know jack do they? World peace? Nah, we don't need them. We can do it ourselves.

And gawd, need I even mention how our arogant acts are breeding even more terrorists? Those future terrorists are going to go for your children while they're still paying the bill for this war.

Lets just round up everyone who hates us and "our freedoms" ('cause terrorists HATE freedom and LOVE chaos *rolls eyes*) and kill 'em all. That way everyone will love us. Yeah..... right.

I seriously would like to know what it would take for you neocons to actually hate your president. Peace must get you folks antsy or something.

First off, excellent post. I agree with you that most american protestors, do not hate America. However sadly that doesnt hold true of the many organizers of the protests. Take as much time as you do to trace the money trails back to Haliburton, to trace the money trails from organizations like ANSWER. What you'll find is a nice set of anti-american, anti-capitalist organizations utilizing your support to achieve their own objectives. Which, I emphasize, are different then you and your fellow protestors.

Furthermore it would have been one thing if you were protesting before the war, to gain international support, and protesting to protect the treaties you mentioned Bush breaking. But the reality is you were protesting the concept of any action in Iraq whatsoever. You and your fellow protestors marched in utter denial of a true problem that America faces today. And as much as I wish that war was no longer a reality of this planet... we would all be fools to claim that it actually is. And thus to address world issues from the perspective, of no force options, is not only naive... it is suicidal.

As for the other "travesties" you mention, I could argue with nearly all of them... such as the banning media from funerals... just say the following outloud... "We should allow the bloodsucking overdramatic media to cover the funerals of killed soldiers, funerals where the press can get access to and harass the families of those soldiers."

And you hold up the UN as an example of world peace in action... and yet the UN has failed miserably in protecting human rights, when member states often those who have the MOST grievous human rights records, such as Libya or Syria actually sit as heads of the Human Rights committee. The UN is a corrupt joke, and we must come to terms with, and deal with that problem, lest we lose everything good the UN still is and could be.

And yet all you protestors seem to see is Bush, Iraq, Israel and Palestine. Nevermind Africa, nevermind the incredibly corrupt Saudi regime. Nevermind the Chechnyan conflict, or the very scary ever present tensions between India and Pakistan. There are thousands of conflicts on this planet of ours, with tyrannical dictators and suffering people. Why is it you only focus on the US/Iraq, and Israel/Palestine... two conflicts who actually have the least human rights violations of any conflicts in the history of mankind?... At some point you must wake up and recognize your own fishbowl induced bias, and then come back down to the planet earth and reality.

I respect your opinion, but cannot help but see your idealistic naivete.

-Max

Thanks for the reply. To start off, I read and (hopefully) understand everything you wrote. Yes, there are people out there who exploit the masses for their own personal agenda but thankfully they're in the minority. There are anti-american, anti-capitalist people within the crowds of protesters but assuming that the will of the majority sets the will of the country, they will not succeed. On the other hand, I'm sure there are a number seeking disproportionate cultural, economic, and political gain within the current ranks in power. I'm not going to lay all blame on the current administration because some changes are long-term but I hope you can realize that some actions taken may be contributing to the problems of today and tomorrow.

I wish I could have protested long before the war began. I wish I could have been one of the front-runners to face off against the administration but there is a thing that many of us once had for our president and that thing is good faith. When the powers that be have their plan drawn out several months in advance and execute them under secrecy and urgency and wrap it with a flag, the majority can react only so quickly/effectively. I remember when even CNN used to insinuate the protestors in San Fran were nuts. These folks saw what the administration was up to (or maybe not ) but as usual, Bush had already marketted his plan to most of the US. Please note that all the world-changing protests took months, years, or decades to have an effect (CivilRights/Vietnam comes to mind)

It is definitely definitely suicidal to write off war as an option but is it really best to war preemptively? Afganistan, I understand, but Iraq? Is it naive to think that they didn't have us in their crosshairs? There are other reasons we are there but assuming Bush isn't a liar, we should find those ready-to-launch WMD's any day now, right?

As for the travesties mentioned, would you prefer that the most noble brave men this country can produce NOT get the attention they deserve - dead or alive? Or would you prefer to hear only about 100 more Jessica Lynches? About the folks who faught and were fortunate enough to live, tell the tale, and write a book about it? While the freedom of press doesn't always lead to the best outcomes, there deserves to be a balance. And yeah, I agree the UN has some serious flaws but there is no better method of bringing peace. I personally don't want a government that shifts with each election and naturally acts in its best interests to determine what right and what isn't. We might as well have the Pope set laws for Iraq.

And regarding your last paragraph, change the word "you protesters" to "our government", and take a look what you're saying. Those issues are indeed serious problems and I wish both sides could give them the same attention.

I admit that my knowledge of historical facts beyond my time such as Vietnam and Civil Rights Movements may be inaccurate so feel free to correct me.

 

[tallest1]

bump

 

[DoubleL]

No soldier has died in vain, As a combat soldier of 37 years and a disabled Vet I would follow Bush to hell and back, I can tell most of you could care less about soldiers dieing over there, The most of you make me sick but I would still lay my life down for you tomorrow cause you are Americans and that is what we do, Maybe someday a soldiers death will not be used to try and make somebody else look bad,

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: DoubleL
No soldier has died in vain, As a combat soldier of 37 years and a disabled Vet I would follow Bush to hell and back, I can tell most of you could care less about soldiers dieing over there, The most of you make me sick but I would still lay my life down for you tomorrow cause you are Americans and that is what we do, Maybe someday a soldiers death will not be used to try and make somebody else look bad,

Nice spin, do you care to offer proof? If Bush and his Minions are so worried about our soldiers there can you explain why Rummy is trying to execute this occupation on the cheap and why he totally ignored the Armed Forces Chief of Staff's recomendation for thousnads of more troops to make sure that it would be safer for our soldiers?

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Originally posted by: DoubleL
No soldier has died in vain, As a combat soldier of 37 years and a disabled Vet I would follow Bush to hell and back, I can tell most of you could care less about soldiers dieing over there, The most of you make me sick but I would still lay my life down for you tomorrow cause you are Americans and that is what we do, Maybe someday a soldiers death will not be used to try and make somebody else look bad,

Unfortunely not one soldier over there has died for anyone here. It is a shame any of them died at all.

 

[cumhail]

Just a few poems about war... the first two coming out of WWI; the third by a Vietnam vet (more info on the poets can be found by clicking on their names, below):

Suicide in the Trenches
by Siegfried Sassoon

I knew a simple soldier boy
Who grinned at life in empty joy,
Slept soundly through the lonesome dark,
And whistled early with the lark.

In winter trenches, cowed and glum,
With crumps and lice and lack of rum,
He put a bullet through his brain.
No one spoke of him again.

You smug-faced crowds with kindling eye
Who cheer when soldier lads march by,
Sneak home and pray you?ll never know
The hell where youth and laughter go.



Dulce et Decorum Est
by Wilfred Owen

Bent double, like old beggars under sacks
Knock-kneed, coughing like hags, we cursed through sludge,
Till on the haunting flares we turned our backs
And towards our distant rest began to trudge.
Men marched asleep. Many had lost their boots
But limped on, blood-shod. All went lame; all blind;
Drunk with fatigue; deaf even to the hoots
Of tired, outstripped Five-Nines that dropped behind.

Gas! GAS! Quick, boys! - An ecstasy of fumbling,
Fitting the clumsy helmets just in time;
But someone still was yelling out and stumbling
And floundering like a man in fire or lime -
Dim, through the misty panes and thick green light,
As under a green sea, I saw him drowning.

In all my dreams, before my helpless sight,
He plunges at me, guttering, choking, drowning.

If in some smothering dreams you too could pace
Behind the wagon that we flung him in,
And watch the white eyes writhing in his face,
His hanging face, like a devil's sick of sin;
If you could hear, at every jolt, the blood
Come gargling from the froth-corrupted lungs,
Obscene as cancer, bitter as the cud
Of vile, incurable sores on innocent tongues,-
My friend, you would not tell with such high zest
To children ardent for some desperate glory,
The old Lie: Dulce et decorum est
Pro patria mori.



To Those Who Have Gone Home Tired
by W.D. Ehrhart

After the streets fall silent
After the bruises and the tear-gassed eyes are healed
After the concensus has returned
After the memories of Kent and My Lai and Hiroshima
lose their power
and their connections with each other
and the sweaters labeled Made in Taiwan
After the last American dies in Canada
and the last Korean in prison
and the last Indian at Pine Ridge
After the last whale is emptied from the sea
and the last leopard emptied from its skin
and the last drop of blood refined by Exxon
After the last iron door clangs shut
behind the last conscience
and the last loaf of bread is hammered into bullets
and the bullets
scattered among the hungry

What answers will you find
What armor will protect you
when your children ask you

Why?

 

[freegeeks]

Originally posted by: DoubleL
No soldier has died in vain, As a combat soldier of 37 years and a disabled Vet I would follow Bush to hell and back, I can tell most of you could care less about soldiers dieing over there, The most of you make me sick but I would still lay my life down for you tomorrow cause you are Americans and that is what we do, Maybe someday a soldiers death will not be used to try and make somebody else look bad,

you certainly make nice cannon fodder

 

[Gaard]

Originally posted by: DoubleL
No soldier has died in vain, As a combat soldier of 37 years and a disabled Vet I would follow Bush to hell and back, I can tell most of you could care less about soldiers dieing over there, The most of you make me sick but I would still lay my life down for you tomorrow cause you are Americans and that is what we do, Maybe someday a soldiers death will not be used to try and make somebody else look bad,

Klaatu Barada Nikto

Sorry, you just sound like a blind follower.


Mind if I ask you a couple of question?

[*]Why would you follow Bush to Hell and back? Is it strictly because you are a vet?

[*]Do you ever wonder if Bush misled the American people? Or does it even matter to you?

 

[Wheezer]

Originally posted by: Gaard

Originally posted by: DoubleL
No soldier has died in vain, As a combat soldier of 37 years and a disabled Vet I would follow Bush to hell and back, I can tell most of you could care less about soldiers dieing over there, The most of you make me sick but I would still lay my life down for you tomorrow cause you are Americans and that is what we do, Maybe someday a soldiers death will not be used to try and make somebody else look bad,

Klaatu Barada Nikto

Sorry, you just sound like a blind follower.


Mind if I ask you a couple of question?

[*]Why would you follow Bush to Hell and back? Is it strictly because you are a vet?

[*]Do you ever wonder if Bush misled the American people? Or does it even matter to you?

it's both sickening and pathetic and shows SO much that not one of you who who disagree with his opinoin did not once at least offer a thank you to this man. He chose to serve so that you, or someone you know would not have to. it does now matter when, now or 20 years ago.

It just further proves the point that the statement "I support our troops but not the war" is garbage. The only troops you support are the ones like the "conciencious objector" who made all the headlines a few months back. Or the ones that went into this simply for the college money and are now faced with the fact that something is expected from them, like following though with the oath that they took when they enlisted.


DoubleL thank you.

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: Wheezer

Originally posted by: Gaard

Originally posted by: DoubleL
No soldier has died in vain, As a combat soldier of 37 years and a disabled Vet I would follow Bush to hell and back, I can tell most of you could care less about soldiers dieing over there, The most of you make me sick but I would still lay my life down for you tomorrow cause you are Americans and that is what we do, Maybe someday a soldiers death will not be used to try and make somebody else look bad,

Klaatu Barada Nikto

Sorry, you just sound like a blind follower.


Mind if I ask you a couple of question?

[*]Why would you follow Bush to Hell and back? Is it strictly because you are a vet?

[*]Do you ever wonder if Bush misled the American people? Or does it even matter to you?

it's both sickening and pathetic and shows SO much that not one of you who who disagree with his opinoin did not once at least offer a thank you to this man. He chose to serve so that you, or someone you know would not have to. it does now matter when, now or 20 years ago.

It just further proves the point that the statement "I support our troops but not the war" is garbage. The only troops you support are the ones like the "conciencious objector" who made all the headlines a few months back. Or the ones that went into this simply for the college money and are now faced with the fact that something is expected from them, like following though with the oath that they took when they enlisted.


DoubleL thank you.

Bite me Wheezer, where did I ever say that I only supported out troops in times of peace and not war?

 

[Gaard]

Wheezer - <<He chose to serve so that you, or someone you know would not have to.>>

Is he right, DoubleL? Is that why anyone joins?


My thanks go to DoubleL for serving this country. Wheezer can go to hell.

BTW - It's people like DoubleL that give Wheezer the right to be a sanctimonious little blowhard.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Originally posted by: Wheezer

Originally posted by: Gaard

Originally posted by: DoubleL
No soldier has died in vain, As a combat soldier of 37 years and a disabled Vet I would follow Bush to hell and back, I can tell most of you could care less about soldiers dieing over there, The most of you make me sick but I would still lay my life down for you tomorrow cause you are Americans and that is what we do, Maybe someday a soldiers death will not be used to try and make somebody else look bad,

Klaatu Barada Nikto

Sorry, you just sound like a blind follower.


Mind if I ask you a couple of question?

[*]Why would you follow Bush to Hell and back? Is it strictly because you are a vet?

[*]Do you ever wonder if Bush misled the American people? Or does it even matter to you?

it's both sickening and pathetic and shows SO much that not one of you who who disagree with his opinoin did not once at least offer a thank you to this man. He chose to serve so that you, or someone you know would not have to. it does now matter when, now or 20 years ago.

It just further proves the point that the statement "I support our troops but not the war" is garbage. The only troops you support are the ones like the "conciencious objector" who made all the headlines a few months back. Or the ones that went into this simply for the college money and are now faced with the fact that something is expected from them, like following though with the oath that they took when they enlisted.


DoubleL thank you.

1- There are a hell of a lot of guys here who have served, and some have been injured. You just don't know that because they don't mention it. Frankly, it's none of your business. The majority from my day don't want your thanks, and whole lot of those don't want there to be more casualties over this. If you want to give it praise, fine. If you don't that's fine as well.

2- If someone has served and injured, he is no more right or wrong than another.

3- It is a good thing when someone displays responsibility as this fellow did. It is his duty as a soldier. I agree that if you are in the service, especially if you enlisted for the "education" there is very little sympathy to be had. This is now part of their learning experience.

4- Stating that one is injured and then to effectively condemn those who don't want to repeat that under these circumstances has little to recommend him. A soldier will go where he is told, and shoot who he must, but in truth few want to be there. It is their job, they signed up for it, and they accept responsibility. That does not mean it is ok to come back in a body bag or missing an eye or and arm or have his nuts blown off because a President acted unwisely at best.

5- Not wanting your soldiers to die in a desert for a cause you do not believe in does not make you unsupportive. It is the opposite. The ones who really don't care are those who sent them there to begin with, as pawns in some bizarrely constructed framework made up entirely of either major gaffs or lies. You pick either alternative.

6- I categorically state I support our soldiers, and I do not support the war. I want you to go to any post I have ever made and find where I have been critical of our soldier on the field. In fact I dare you to. If I believe this war to be wrong, how do I support them by saying they should have been sent there in the first place? No, the best thing is to get them out ASAP. That is what is best for our soldiers. They and I know that time isn't going to be yet, but someone (us) needs to hold the pols feet to the fire and speed this up.

 

[Wheezer]

Originally posted by: WinstonSmith

Originally posted by: Wheezer

Originally posted by: Gaard

Originally posted by: DoubleL
No soldier has died in vain, As a combat soldier of 37 years and a disabled Vet I would follow Bush to hell and back, I can tell most of you could care less about soldiers dieing over there, The most of you make me sick but I would still lay my life down for you tomorrow cause you are Americans and that is what we do, Maybe someday a soldiers death will not be used to try and make somebody else look bad,

Klaatu Barada Nikto

Sorry, you just sound like a blind follower.


Mind if I ask you a couple of question?

[*]Why would you follow Bush to Hell and back? Is it strictly because you are a vet?

[*]Do you ever wonder if Bush misled the American people? Or does it even matter to you?

it's both sickening and pathetic and shows SO much that not one of you who who disagree with his opinoin did not once at least offer a thank you to this man. He chose to serve so that you, or someone you know would not have to. it does now matter when, now or 20 years ago.

It just further proves the point that the statement "I support our troops but not the war" is garbage. The only troops you support are the ones like the "conciencious objector" who made all the headlines a few months back. Or the ones that went into this simply for the college money and are now faced with the fact that something is expected from them, like following though with the oath that they took when they enlisted.


DoubleL thank you.

1- There are a hell of a lot of guys here who have served, and some have been injured. You just don't know that because they don't mention it. Frankly, it's none of your business. The majority from my day don't want your thanks, and whole lot of those don't want there to be more casualties over this. If you want to give it praise, fine. If you don't that's fine as well.

2- If someone has served and injured, he is no more right or wrong than another.

3- It is a good thing when someone displays responsibility as this fellow did. It is his duty as a soldier. I agree that if you are in the service, especially if you enlisted for the "education" there is very little sympathy to be had. This is now part of their learning experience.

4- Stating that one is injured and then to effectively condemn those who don't want to repeat that under these circumstances has little to recommend him. A soldier will go where he is told, and shoot who he must, but in truth few want to be there. It is their job, they signed up for it, and they accept responsibility. That does not mean it is ok to come back in a body bag or missing an eye or and arm or have his nuts blown off because a President acted unwisely at best.

5- Not wanting your soldiers to die in a desert for a cause you do not believe in does not make you unsupportive. It is the opposite. The ones who really don't care are those who sent them there to begin with, as pawns in some bizarrely constructed framework made up entirely of either major gaffs or lies. You pick either alternative.

6- I categorically state I support our soldiers, and I do not support the war. I want you to go to any post I have ever made and find where I have been critical of our soldier on the field. In fact I dare you to. If I believe this war to be wrong, how do I support them by saying they should have been sent there in the first place? No, the best thing is to get them out ASAP. That is what is best for our soldiers. They and I know that time isn't going to be yet, but someone (us) needs to hold the pols feet to the fire and speed this up.

just to clarify when did you serve?

what capacity? (not that it makes any difference)

There are a lot of guys who have served in the past and presently do that would appreciate a "thank you" for what they do, and have done.

I live near a airport that trains reserve pilots of C-130. Will these guys see combat? I don't know but I have yet to be told "fvck you" from any one of these men when I stretch out my hand and say thanks. I do it when ever I meet one, does not matter where. So if in your opinion you don't feel it is needed or wanted in your case fine, but from my observations of vets I know personally and ones I have met casually you are in the minority.

There will never ever be a time when everyone agrees that we should go to war. Whether you are in the military or not.

 

[DoubleL]

Klaatu Barada Nikto

Sorry, you just sound like a blind follower. NO I am not


Mind if I ask you a couple of question? Ask anything you want


Why would you follow Bush to Hell and back? Is it strictly because you are a vet? No it is becasue him and the other did a better job planing this war out so that as few would die as possible, The war I was in the soldiers life ment nothing


Do you ever wonder if Bush misled the American people? Or does it even matter to you? No I don't think he misled the people and we have to win this war

Now some others, I don't care for war protestors, Then and now they say they support the troops but not the war, Well when I left Nam I was to take my rehab in Hines, Ill. They had a protest to try and block the Vets coming in, Support?, After about 8 months of rehab they stated letting us go home on the weekends, More than once I was stoped by protestor and called Baby killer, Murder, Criple, I could go on, Support?, After a year of rehab I went home but in Indiana going to the VA hospital in Indy I had to go by IUPUI and they would say the same old things, Throw rocks at my car just because I had DAV plates, I didn't go in to get a education, I went in cause it was the right thing to do I thought, All I wanted to do was put my time in pay some back for being a American if you will come out get a job and marry my girl, Well sometimes things don't go as you plan so now I have been in the military 37 years, I care for protestor but it is their right and I don't type a mean note to them so show me the same, I could go on but that was what I was asked

 

[tallest1]

Originally posted by: DoubleL
Do you ever wonder if Bush misled the American people? Or does it even matter to you? No I don't think he misled the people and we have to win this war

Now some others, I don't care for war protestors, Then and now they say they support the troops but not the war, Well when I left Nam I was to take my rehab in Hines, Ill. They had a protest to try and block the Vets coming in, Support?, After about 8 months of rehab they stated letting us go home on the weekends, More than once I was stoped by protestor and called Baby killer, Murder, Criple, I could go on, Support?, After a year of rehab I went home but in Indiana going to the VA hospital in Indy I had to go by IUPUI and they would say the same old things, Throw rocks at my car just because I had DAV plates, I didn't go in to get a education, I went in cause it was the right thing to do I thought, All I wanted to do was put my time in pay some back for being a American if you will come out get a job and marry my girl, Well sometimes things don't go as you plan so now I have been in the military 37 years, I care for protestor but it is their right and I don't type a mean note to them so show me the same, I could go on but that was what I was asked

I'm sorry you view anti-war protestors that way. Even though the weapons used are more deadly, our soldiers and leaders have been more humaine[sp] by treating innocents and captured soldiers. While some women and children die from the intense battles, NO ONE in this modern day would someone call our soldiers baby killers. Hell, if someone did, I'd punch him/her in the face for making the people who fight for us villains. Please understand that times have changed. As I said earlier, it is Bush we have beef with, not the soldiers. I thank God you're alive and appreciate what you have done for this country.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Originally posted by: Wheezer

Originally posted by: WinstonSmith

Originally posted by: Wheezer

Originally posted by: Gaard

Originally posted by: DoubleL
No soldier has died in vain, As a combat soldier of 37 years and a disabled Vet I would follow Bush to hell and back, I can tell most of you could care less about soldiers dieing over there, The most of you make me sick but I would still lay my life down for you tomorrow cause you are Americans and that is what we do, Maybe someday a soldiers death will not be used to try and make somebody else look bad,

Klaatu Barada Nikto

Sorry, you just sound like a blind follower.


Mind if I ask you a couple of question?

[*]Why would you follow Bush to Hell and back? Is it strictly because you are a vet?

[*]Do you ever wonder if Bush misled the American people? Or does it even matter to you?

it's both sickening and pathetic and shows SO much that not one of you who who disagree with his opinoin did not once at least offer a thank you to this man. He chose to serve so that you, or someone you know would not have to. it does now matter when, now or 20 years ago.

It just further proves the point that the statement "I support our troops but not the war" is garbage. The only troops you support are the ones like the "conciencious objector" who made all the headlines a few months back. Or the ones that went into this simply for the college money and are now faced with the fact that something is expected from them, like following though with the oath that they took when they enlisted.


DoubleL thank you.

1- There are a hell of a lot of guys here who have served, and some have been injured. You just don't know that because they don't mention it. Frankly, it's none of your business. The majority from my day don't want your thanks, and whole lot of those don't want there to be more casualties over this. If you want to give it praise, fine. If you don't that's fine as well.

2- If someone has served and injured, he is no more right or wrong than another.

3- It is a good thing when someone displays responsibility as this fellow did. It is his duty as a soldier. I agree that if you are in the service, especially if you enlisted for the "education" there is very little sympathy to be had. This is now part of their learning experience.

4- Stating that one is injured and then to effectively condemn those who don't want to repeat that under these circumstances has little to recommend him. A soldier will go where he is told, and shoot who he must, but in truth few want to be there. It is their job, they signed up for it, and they accept responsibility. That does not mean it is ok to come back in a body bag or missing an eye or and arm or have his nuts blown off because a President acted unwisely at best.

5- Not wanting your soldiers to die in a desert for a cause you do not believe in does not make you unsupportive. It is the opposite. The ones who really don't care are those who sent them there to begin with, as pawns in some bizarrely constructed framework made up entirely of either major gaffs or lies. You pick either alternative.

6- I categorically state I support our soldiers, and I do not support the war. I want you to go to any post I have ever made and find where I have been critical of our soldier on the field. In fact I dare you to. If I believe this war to be wrong, how do I support them by saying they should have been sent there in the first place? No, the best thing is to get them out ASAP. That is what is best for our soldiers. They and I know that time isn't going to be yet, but someone (us) needs to hold the pols feet to the fire and speed this up.

just to clarify when did you serve?

what capacity? (not that it makes any difference)

There are a lot of guys who have served in the past and presently do that would appreciate a "thank you" for what they do, and have done.

I live near a airport that trains reserve pilots of C-130. Will these guys see combat? I don't know but I have yet to be told "fvck you" from any one of these men when I stretch out my hand and say thanks. I do it when ever I meet one, does not matter where. So if in your opinion you don't feel it is needed or wanted in your case fine, but from my observations of vets I know personally and ones I have met casually you are in the minority.

There will never ever be a time when everyone agrees that we should go to war. Whether you are in the military or not.

Whatever service I have seen is immaterial. See point 1.

Will anyone say "fsck you" if you greet them? No. That was not your point however. Your point addressed that no one said "thank you". If you really want to say thank you, find a family in your neighborhood who is bearing financial burdens from the breadwinner being overseas and slip an anonymous hundred dollar bill in the mail slot. Put a bag of groceries on the porch, ring the doorbell and run like hell. Better, get together with others and pool your resources and together do the same thing. Don't tell anyone you are doing it. You arent in it for a "thank you".

I don't know the guys you do, but VN vets were glad not to be spit on. After these many years, people want to get on with their lives and not be dredging up history for a handshake. Do someone a real favor and materially help someone in need. That is a much better "Thanks"

 

[phpdog]

very long post

 

[Wheezer]

Originally posted by: WinstonSmith

Originally posted by: Wheezer

Originally posted by: WinstonSmith

Originally posted by: Wheezer

Originally posted by: Gaard

Originally posted by: DoubleL
No soldier has died in vain, As a combat soldier of 37 years and a disabled Vet I would follow Bush to hell and back, I can tell most of you could care less about soldiers dieing over there, The most of you make me sick but I would still lay my life down for you tomorrow cause you are Americans and that is what we do, Maybe someday a soldiers death will not be used to try and make somebody else look bad,

Klaatu Barada Nikto

Sorry, you just sound like a blind follower.


Mind if I ask you a couple of question?

[*]Why would you follow Bush to Hell and back? Is it strictly because you are a vet?

[*]Do you ever wonder if Bush misled the American people? Or does it even matter to you?

it's both sickening and pathetic and shows SO much that not one of you who who disagree with his opinoin did not once at least offer a thank you to this man. He chose to serve so that you, or someone you know would not have to. it does now matter when, now or 20 years ago.

It just further proves the point that the statement "I support our troops but not the war" is garbage. The only troops you support are the ones like the "conciencious objector" who made all the headlines a few months back. Or the ones that went into this simply for the college money and are now faced with the fact that something is expected from them, like following though with the oath that they took when they enlisted.


DoubleL thank you.

1- There are a hell of a lot of guys here who have served, and some have been injured. You just don't know that because they don't mention it. Frankly, it's none of your business. The majority from my day don't want your thanks, and whole lot of those don't want there to be more casualties over this. If you want to give it praise, fine. If you don't that's fine as well.

2- If someone has served and injured, he is no more right or wrong than another.

3- It is a good thing when someone displays responsibility as this fellow did. It is his duty as a soldier. I agree that if you are in the service, especially if you enlisted for the "education" there is very little sympathy to be had. This is now part of their learning experience.

4- Stating that one is injured and then to effectively condemn those who don't want to repeat that under these circumstances has little to recommend him. A soldier will go where he is told, and shoot who he must, but in truth few want to be there. It is their job, they signed up for it, and they accept responsibility. That does not mean it is ok to come back in a body bag or missing an eye or and arm or have his nuts blown off because a President acted unwisely at best.

5- Not wanting your soldiers to die in a desert for a cause you do not believe in does not make you unsupportive. It is the opposite. The ones who really don't care are those who sent them there to begin with, as pawns in some bizarrely constructed framework made up entirely of either major gaffs or lies. You pick either alternative.

6- I categorically state I support our soldiers, and I do not support the war. I want you to go to any post I have ever made and find where I have been critical of our soldier on the field. In fact I dare you to. If I believe this war to be wrong, how do I support them by saying they should have been sent there in the first place? No, the best thing is to get them out ASAP. That is what is best for our soldiers. They and I know that time isn't going to be yet, but someone (us) needs to hold the pols feet to the fire and speed this up.

just to clarify when did you serve?

what capacity? (not that it makes any difference)

There are a lot of guys who have served in the past and presently do that would appreciate a "thank you" for what they do, and have done.

I live near a airport that trains reserve pilots of C-130. Will these guys see combat? I don't know but I have yet to be told "fvck you" from any one of these men when I stretch out my hand and say thanks. I do it when ever I meet one, does not matter where. So if in your opinion you don't feel it is needed or wanted in your case fine, but from my observations of vets I know personally and ones I have met casually you are in the minority.

There will never ever be a time when everyone agrees that we should go to war. Whether you are in the military or not.

Whatever service I have seen is immaterial. See point 1.

Will anyone say "fsck you" if you greet them? No. That was not your point however. Your point addressed that no one said "thank you". If you really want to say thank you, find a family in your neighborhood who is bearing financial burdens from the breadwinner being overseas and slip an anonymous hundred dollar bill in the mail slot. Put a bag of groceries on the porch, ring the doorbell and run like hell. Better, get together with others and pool your resources and together do the same thing. Don't tell anyone you are doing it. You arent in it for a "thank you".

I don't know the guys you do, but VN vets were glad not to be spit on. After these many years, people want to get on with their lives and not be dredging up history for a handshake. Do someone a real favor and materially help someone in need. That is a much better "Thanks"

hate to break this to you but I do contribute to families in my area that have military family members overseas not only this time but during the first gulf war also. You assume a lot where as I go by the words you type.

and no I did not say NO ONE says thank you but you and the other posters first response was to bash this person who has seen combat, has put his life on the line. Again your FIRST response was not a thank you, but to make sure your point got across. Had I not said anything you probably would never have thought to apreciate what he and others have. At least Gaard had the decency to do so.

Bite me Wheezer, where did I ever say that I only supported out troops in times of peace and not war?

Well your asinine response to a person who has served his duty to this country when asked did not seem to put off anything but disrespect...so YOU BITE ME.

Is he right, DoubleL? Is that why anyone joins?


My thanks go to DoubleL for serving this country. Wheezer can go to hell.

BTW - It's people like DoubleL that give Wheezer the right to be a sanctimonious little blowhard.

I did not say anyone and everyone joins for that reason you idiot. Some people join for various reasons, money for college, learn a trade, learn leadership, get direction in thier lives and yes even because they feel it is thier duty to serve, however when it is time to fight they ALL are the first to go.

So because I appreciate the fact that people voluntarily join the service and fight for this country whether they agree or not, but do it anyway makes me sanctimonious?

Your family members have my thanks. You however can go fvck yourself.

 

[NorthRiver]

We will not win this war! The only way we can win, is to drop a couple nukes on select countries.


This is a repeat of the Soviet push to take over Afghanistan. Not winnable!!


The really sad part is that soldiers are giving their lives for this crap!