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Bush backs automotive revolution

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<< Jan. 9 ? After nearly $1.5 billion in subsidies, the Bush administration is ending a program to help automakers develop high-mileage, gasoline-electric cars and instead plans to fund research that would revolutionize the automotive industry by replacing the internal combustion engine with something much cleaner and quieter: fuel cells. Major automakers have been moving in that direction, with General Motors this week unveiling its prototype fuel cell car, the Autonomy.

ENERGY SECRETARY Spencer Abraham was expected to make the announcement Wednesday at the Detroit auto show, touting hydrogen fuel cell development as part of a broader strategy to reduce the country?s dependence on foreign oil and help the environment by reducing carbon dioxide emissions and tailpipe pollution.

Department officials said Abraham would be joined by auto executives in unveiling the new program, called ?Freedom Car.? It is expected to emerge as the Bush administration?s response to critics who are calling for higher fuel standards for gas-guzzling cars and sport utility vehicles. >>


http://msnbc.com/news/684483.asp
 


<< Now why would he do that, it would hurt big oil >>



i HOPE this means people are starting to realize that oil will only be around for about 50 more years.

my biggest fear is that because of the power of "big oil" fuel cell development will never be well funded....

and then one day in the future, oil goes bye bye and we're all screwed because we haven't developed a good alternative.....

that would piss me off
 


<< i HOPE this means people are starting to realize that oil will only be around for about 50 more years. >>



I'm just curious where you got your numbers. When I was in school I was told we had about 100 years of oil left. Recently (2-3 years ago), they found a method to get triple the oil from all oil wells (new ones as well as old ones that they thought were dry). Thus, we should have 200-300 years of easily obtained oil left.
 


<<

<< i HOPE this means people are starting to realize that oil will only be around for about 50 more years. >>



I'm just curious where you got your numbers. When I was in school I was told we had about 100 years of oil left. Recently (2-3 years ago), they found a method to get triple the oil from all oil wells (new ones as well as old ones that they thought were dry). Thus, we should have 200-300 years of easily obtained oil left. >>



I was just going off numbers i've heard watching TLC and the like 😛 You may very well be correct

You raise a good point about "easily obtainable" oil though. There's a lot out there, but how much longer we can easily obtain it is questionable

Also, if our mid-east relations should sour, that could bring an untimely end to much of our oil supply (though i doubt the mid-east would ever let it get that far since we're probably their biggest client)
 
if we run out of oil, we apparently have about 500 years worth of coal, if we could only find a non-polluting way to use it. steam engine ferarri anyone?
but i think fuel cells are the best route, if we can develop them to commercial feasability within the next 10 years.
however... what do we do with things like tractors on farms when we run out of oil. Can fuel cells and electric motors be made strong enough to replace the internal combustion engine on those beasts?
 
We have at least 200-300 years of oil left. Now the "easily obtainable" is another story.
The latest thing I've seen is a hydrogen fuel cell that runs off gasoline. Just because we
switch power plants doesn't mean oil dependence disappears. There are lots of ways to get
hydrogen.

It's sort of like recycling, when natural resources become scarce, people will open landfills and begin
full scale recycling of the contents. It's all about economics.

That being said, I think gasoline-electric is the way to go in the short term.
Developing highly efficient electric motors and control systems, is a major
step toward making fuel cells a more viable option. I think this is just some
lobbying on the Bush administrations part. They're just jumping on the latest
bandwagon.

Edit: As to the comment as to weather electric motors can be made powerful enough
to drive large trucks and machinery. Check out diesel locomotives or the largest dump
trucks in the world. They all use gas-electric powerplants.
 
more hot stinky air coming from the bush.

how long have presidents been making this announcement...since the 70's?


yeah it probably hurts big oil, but LOOK, they're (bush and friends) are probably heavily invested in hydrogen or fuel cell companies now!
just more of the same.
 


<< As to the comment as to weather electric motors can be made powerful enough
to drive large trucks and machinery. Check out diesel locomotives or the largest dump
trucks in the world. They all use gas-electric powerplants. >>


forgot about them, thanks for the reminder 🙂 What will we do w/ airplanes? Imagine if an airliner full of hydrogen flew into the WTC! Right now I don't know of any "alternative fuel" airplanes in existance, at least not large scale ones.
 


<< more hot stinky air coming from the bush.

how long have presidents been making this announcement...since the 70's?


yeah it probably hurts big oil, but LOOK, they're (bush and friends) are probably heavily invested in hydrogen or fuel cell companies now!
just more of the same. >>


I hate cynical people. :frown:
 


<< Imagine if an airliner full of hydrogen flew into the WTC! >>


Ummm...are you implying that it would have triggered a thermonuclear reaction? 😕😕
 
vespasian, what does that latin in your sig mean? something about God, freedom and man, but I don't know latin.

i was implying that it would blow up, as per challenger.
 


<< what do we do with things like tractors on farms when we run out of oil. Can fuel cells and electric motors be made strong enough to replace the internal combustion engine on those beasts? >>


I'd say so. It's electric motors that turn the wheels on a diesel-electric locomotive.

It's not a question of if we'll use all the oil up. We will. When we do, it will be good to have something to fall back on. It's good to fund research on technologies that will eventually become necessary, so when that time comes, we will be competitive, perhaps exporting it, instead of needing to import it.

As good and important as fuel cell research is, unfortunately, I think Bush just gave away the gasoline-electric market to the Japanese. It's not like GM and Ford were actually doing too much development on them currently, but for them to compete right now they should be. Honda and Toyota are already selling such cars today. Toyota has the Prius on backorder, it's so popular. In a few months, Honda will have a gasoline-electric Civic 4 door to go along with their Insight 2 seater. I'm sure Honda will sell every single Civic hybrid for sticker price. A lack of funding for gasoline-electric development puts GM and Ford at an even greater disadvantage.
 
Electric motors are already stronger (ie more power output) than internal combustion motors. Fuel cells will probably first see their use in large vehicles because the cells themselves are quite large and need room. As the technology advances and the cells shrink further you will see them move into mainstream auto's. Fuel cells are the future, we get to keep cars and eliminate our foreign oil dependence. With non-point source pollution removed it becomes a simple task to switch the country to a domestic supply like coal (and improve air quality at the same time) and later to more advanced non-fossil fuel based power generation.

Fuel cells are the future, there is a reason every major manufacturer is planning cars around them in the next year or two. The hybrids are an attempt to learn how to do electric motors on the assembly lines, sort of an intermediate step towards fuel cells where the manufacturers figure out how to do build cars again.
 
I must admit, that Honda civic hybrid car would be great for me right now as I drive another 26,000 miles a year to get from home to work.
 
Bush is just delaying high fuel economy so oil industry can profit now.
Instead of more hybrid cars that will get 50mpg now, Bush is saying, go ahead drive your 10mpg Suburbans, in 40 years we'll have fuel cells, then we'll worry about it.
 
How the fusk can we use up millions of years (well that accumulated over millions of years) of oil in just over 100-200 years, and how do they know how much oil is left for consumption, have they looked everywhere on earth and determined that their is no more left. I hate figures like these.....Dammit I'm pissed for no reason now.

I think that they should force all people who have no appreciation for the gaoline engine..E.G. tune their own motors, change their own oil, build their own engines, hot rod their autos and motorcycles to drive electric cars...

Jesus, if you cant check your own oil and change your own tire, you IMHO have no right to be on the road. They should be forced to take the bus.

For example, why do these soccer moms who only drive 30 mph need these huge gas guzzling v8s in their giant SUV;s.. they never even get that throttle more than 1/3 open anyway. Hell give them a v6 witha fancy name and they will be just as happy.
 
<<Bush is just delaying high fuel economy so oil industry can profit now.
Instead of more hybrid cars that will get 50mpg now, Bush is saying, go ahead drive your 10mpg Suburbans, in 40 years we'll have fuel cells, then we'll worry about it. >>

Maybe you are too shortsighted to see what the future really holds. We are at MOST 5 years away from full production of fuel cell cars, most of the automakers are saying 2004 for introduction, and 2005 for production ramping. Maybe that's why people who know more than you do make the decisions.

"NEW YORK, Jan 8 (Reuters) - Alternate energy source stocks soared on Tuesday as General Motors Corp. (NYSE:GM - news) unveiled a new energy efficient car at Detroit's annual auto show on Monday and on reports that the U.S Department of Energy plans to invest in research of fuel cells as an energy substitute, analysts said."
 
He's doing it because the USA currently imports approximately 57% of its oil. That is a huge dependance on foreign oil. Come up with another power source and the USA won't have to depend on unstable foreign governments to provide our oil.
 


<< Maybe that's why people who know more than you do make the decisions. >>



LOL, classic!!!!
 
Um, don't hyrogen fuel cell powered cars still use an internal combustino engine? They just burn hydrogen instead of gasoline.
 


<< <<Bush is just delaying high fuel economy so oil industry can profit now.
Instead of more hybrid cars that will get 50mpg now, Bush is saying, go ahead drive your 10mpg Suburbans, in 40 years we'll have fuel cells, then we'll worry about it. >>

Maybe you are too shortsighted to see what the future really holds. We are at MOST 5 years away from full production of fuel cell cars, most of the automakers are saying 2004 for introduction, and 2005 for production ramping. Maybe that's why people who know more than you do make the decisions.

"NEW YORK, Jan 8 (Reuters) - Alternate energy source stocks soared on Tuesday as General Motors Corp. (NYSE:GM - news) unveiled a new energy efficient car at Detroit's annual auto show on Monday and on reports that the U.S Department of Energy plans to invest in research of fuel cells as an energy substitute, analysts said." >>



That's bull. Have you seen this GM car? It's a giant scateboard. Maybe in 5 years we'll have some testers on the road, but nothing that will make any dent in the market. Gas-electric cars are coming out now and selling well. I see a bunch of these Prius cars in the parking lot already.
Also, it's nice to see Honda and Toyota getting into the large SUV business. They'll show Detroit how to do it right, just like they did in every other car segment.



<< Some environmentalists fear Abraham?s announcement will let U.S. automakers duck the hybrid market, even though models by Toyota and Honda have sold well at around $20,000 each.
Studying future uses of hydrogen is ?legitimate research, but it?s a smokescreen,? John DeCicco, a senior fellow with Environmental Defense. ?It?s using legitimate future research needs to hide the fact the Japanese have beaten the pants off them for delivering the goods to the marketplace.? >>

 
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