Bush authorized NSA to spy on private citizens

[DealMonkey]

Originally posted by: Condor

Originally posted by: TurtleBlue
Thanks, Condor, for the link...

I did not wish to state the history of civilian espionage due to it's length. I mentioned ECHELON due to the fact that's what the gov. called that type of activity at that point of time in history...perhaps I should have been more vebose.

Remember the key words for debate with libs: Verbose, pedantic. They love both and that is the reason I try to do neither. This will all be settled in greater halls than these.

Where? Valhalla? Don't you ever tire of being such a stereotypical wingnut? Blah, blah, blah, liberals bad. Man, it gets soooooo old.

Hopefully, the libs will be delayed in their actions long enough for the threat to lessen before they make us completely defenseless.

Ahhh yes, the libs are traitors. Nice one. See my comment about stereotypes, above.

After you have posted here for a while, you will become less tolerant of their endless repetition of the same points and their endless efforts to blame Bush for everything under the sun. I can't figure out why they aren't trying to blame him for the airplane crash of last evening. They will get there eventually.

Um, we can blame Bush because he personally authorized the spying. 30+ times! Perhaps you're one of the confused conservatives who spout off about personal responsibility when it comes to poor people, but yet there's no personal responsibility for our political leaders? When they F up, they should be held accountable. Period. I'm not convinced the warantless taps were illegal, but I certainly don't feel good about it either.

It was also pretty disgusting when they gave the mayor of NO and the governor of Louisiana a complete pass while trying to lay the whole Gulf coast disaster at the feet of Bush.

"You're doin' a heck of a job, Brownie!" Remember that one? Remember when Bush appointed a completely inexperienced moron at the helm of FEMA? Remember when Bush gutted the FEMA budget in order to spread some pork around the country in the guise of 'homeland security' mad money? Yeah. 'Nuff said.

 

[phillyTIM]

TurtleBlue: And you also become less tolerant of the bush-lovers rhetoric to defend bush and the bush-lovers will to badmouth anyone that disagrees with them. you will definately learn to identify who they are in short order.

Originally posted by: Condor

Originally posted by: TurtleBlue
Thanks, Condor, for the link...

I did not wish to state the history of civilian espionage due to it's length. I mentioned ECHELON due to the fact that's what the gov. called that type of activity at that point of time in history...perhaps I should have been more vebose.

Remember the key words for debate with libs: Verbose, pedantic. They love both and that is the reason I try to do neither. This will all be settled in greater halls than these.

Hopefully, the libs will be delayed in their actions long enough for the threat to lessen before they make us completely defenseless.

After you have posted here for a while, you will become less tolerant of their endless repetition of the same points and their endless efforts to blame Bush for everything under the sun. I can't figure out why they aren't trying to blame him for the airplane crash of last evening. They will get there eventually.

It was also pretty disgusting when they gave the mayor of NO and the governor of Louisiana a complete pass while trying to lay the whole Gulf coast disaster at the feet of Bush.

 

[mi1stormilst]

Originally posted by: Meuge
Typical liberal nonsense. There isn't a right to privacy in the Bill Of Rights... so none of you deserve to have any. If you've got nothing to hide, then you won't mind a camera staring up your colon when you sit down to take a ******. Nor will you mind if an agent watches you have sex through a camera implanted in your left nipple... and then takes a good long time to pat your girl before boarding the plane (might need to strip search her too). If you've got nothing to hide, then there is no reason for you to mind the government knowing where you are, what you're doing, and what you're saying to whom every minute of every day of your life. Privacy is not a right, it's a priviledge... and it's not for you, especially given your income bracket. Now you know you're being ******... but there is absolutely nothing you can do about it. So shut the hell up, bend over, and enjoy it.

Bro I must say there is nothing right about giving up freedoms of any kind. Did you forget "WE" run the government...and frankly I don't want to look in your a$$ or anybody elses ever. Is there room for Protection and Caution?...YES...but not at the cost of our ELECTED rulers doing crap behind our backs )-: However, anyone with the illusion that this type of spying has not gone on for many many years is living under a rock. When people are sneaking around trying to blow things up it's going to result in someone taking some precautionary measures.

 

[azazyel]

The citizens should not be afraid of their government but the government should be afraid of the citizens.

/or something like that

 

[db]

In April 2004 Bush had this to say about wiretaps:

"Now, by the way," he said, "any time you hear the United States government talking about wiretap, it requires -- a wiretap requires a court order. Nothing has changed, by the way. When we're talking about chasing down terrorists, we're talking about getting a court order before we do so. It's important for our fellow citizens to understand, when you think 'Patriot Act,' constitutional guarantees are in place when it comes to doing what is necessary to protect our homeland, because we value the Constitution."

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2004/04/20040420-2.html

 

[conjur]

Originally posted by: db
In April 2004 Bush had this to say about wiretaps:

"Now, by the way," he said, "any time you hear the United States government talking about wiretap, it requires -- a wiretap requires a court order. Nothing has changed, by the way. When we're talking about chasing down terrorists, we're talking about getting a court order before we do so. It's important for our fellow citizens to understand, when you think 'Patriot Act,' constitutional guarantees are in place when it comes to doing what is necessary to protect our homeland, because we value the Constitution."

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2004/04/20040420-2.html

CBS News just showed a video clip of the Propagandist talking about that from April 20, 2004. It was in his forceful, hand gesturing way when he's been confronted and gets agitated.

Also, today, Sen. Roberts criticized Sen. Rockefeller. Roberts said Rockefeller had capabilities of taking on the White House (yeah...right.)

Hey, Sen. Roberts, where's that Phase II report?



And, btw, here's an update on the use of Echelon during the Clinton administration:

http://thinkprogress.org/2005/12/20/the-echelon-myth/

Prominent right-wing bloggers ? including Michelle Malkin, the Corner, Wizbang and Free Republic ? are pushing the argument that President Bush?s warrantless domestic spying program isn?t news because the Clinton administration did the same thing.

The right-wing outlet NewsMax sums up the basic argument:

During the 1990?s under President Clinton, the National Security Agency monitored millions of private phone calls placed by U.S. citizens and citizens of other countries under a super secret program code-named Echelon?all of it done without a court order, let alone a catalyst like the 9/11 attacks.

That?s flatly false. The Clinton administration program, code-named Echelon, complied with FISA. Before any conversations of U.S. persons were targeted, a FISA warrant was obtained. CIA director George Tenet testified to this before Congress on 4/12/00:

I?m here today to discuss specific issues about and allegations regarding Signals Intelligence activities and the so-called Echelon Program of the National Security Agency?

There is a rigorous regime of checks and balances which we, the Central Intelligence Agency, the National Security Agency and the FBI scrupulously adhere to whenever conversations of U.S. persons are involved, whether directly or indirectly. We do not collect against U.S. persons unless they are agents of a foreign power as that term is defined in the law. We do not target their conversations for collection in the United States unless a FISA warrant has been obtained from the FISA court by the Justice Department.

Meanwhile, the position of the Bush administration is that they can bypass the FISA court and every other court, even when they are monitoring the communications of U.S. persons. It is the difference between following the law and breaking it.

 

[NJDevil]

Originally posted by: db
In April 2004 Bush had this to say about wiretaps:

"Now, by the way," he said, "any time you hear the United States government talking about wiretap, it requires -- a wiretap requires a court order. Nothing has changed, by the way. When we're talking about chasing down terrorists, we're talking about getting a court order before we do so. It's important for our fellow citizens to understand, when you think 'Patriot Act,' constitutional guarantees are in place when it comes to doing what is necessary to protect our homeland, because we value the Constitution."

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2004/04/20040420-2.html

Hah

 

[fjord]

Impeach and convict.

 

[TurtleBlue]

Hi, phillyTIM

I have not made many post in this forum. Usually I hang out in Distributed Computing, putting my cpu cycles to fine cures for today's diseases. I wish to dispell the misconception that I am a Bush advocate. I am still a Democratic Card holder. There are several points that I am totally opposite to Mr. Bush. One is his "Drunken Sailor" spending which bothers me to no end. The other point, which is my main gripe with the President, is the Boarder Issue.

Concerning the boarder issue I also wish to state that I am of Spanish Ancestry - A legal citizen of these United States. I speak English at all times. I get mad when I receive mail in spanish. I am pissed off when making calls and listening to those unending choices, especially those choices of language. I can go on and on, but life has demands on my time which I must fulfill. Time to do the wash!

 

[Rainsford]

Originally posted by: TurtleBlue
Hi, phillyTIM

I have not made many post in this forum. Usually I hang out in Distributed Computing, putting my cpu cycles to fine cures for today's diseases. I wish to dispell the misconception that I am a Bush advocate. I am still a Democratic Card holder. There are several points that I am totally opposite to Mr. Bush. One is his "Drunken Sailor" spending which bothers me to no end. The other point, which is my main gripe with the President, is the Boarder Issue.

Concerning the boarder issue I also wish to state that I am of Spanish Ancestry - A legal citizen of these United States. I speak English at all times. I get mad when I receive mail in spanish. I am pissed off when making calls and listening to those unending choices, especially those choices of language. I can go on and on, but life has demands on my time which I must fulfill. Time to do the wash!

So you want us to view you as a intelligent, non-partisan person? Fair enough, but a good start might be refraining from using "anti-american" and "democrat" as the same thing.

 

[DealMonkey]

I don't know about you guys, but I've been consistantly against these orwellian efforts by our intel community over the years. Echelon worried me, the FBI's Carnivore was very concerning as is this latest effort by Bush and the NSA. I consistantly advocate for our civil liberties to be just as strong as possible, so that's why I don't feel at all out-of-place criticizing this latest action by the Bush administration. To me it's yet another unilateral power grab by the executive branch who use 9/11 to justify everything and anything and who are trying to create a legal end-run around our most basic constitutional protections, checks and balances and reasonable requirements for oversight.

 

[conjur]

Paraphrased summary of Sen. Boxer on Countdown with Keith Olbermann:

Q:What specifically did you ask; have you heard back from them
A: John Dean said Bush is first president to admit to an impeachable offense. Boxer asked if she could quote Dean, he said she could. She has not heard back from any of the four scholars yet.

The president in April '04 told people "We always get a warrant"

The VP said he never heard dissent from Congress, yet we have a letter from Sen. Rockefeller opposing the wiretaps.

"This administration has not been truthful"..."reminiscent of Watergate days"

Q: McClellan said Congress was fully briefed on this program. Were you?
A: "Absolutely not. Only a few people were told and their objections were thrown in the trashcan."




And some commentary from the rude pundit (funny...but sad)
http://rudepundit.blogspot.com/

"An open debate about law would tell the enemy this is what we're doing." Cool. So terrorism prevents open debate. Good thing they're not winning.

...

Reporter Peter just pissed off the President by saying that Bush was asserting "unchecked power." Bush nearly jumps over the podium at him, saying, "I disagree with your...it's not unchecked power." He won't let Peter talk; ooh, he's mad now. Bush says that his oath of office is a check, which is not unlike saying that a marriage vow prevents all adultery. And he says that he briefs Congress all the time. As if tellin' 'em what's up is equal to a check on power.

...

...when asked about what plots have been disrupted by domestic surveillance, he won't tell. Says it's secret. Says it'll help the terr'ists. So let's get this straight: the spying's secret. The results are secret. We could have secret places where we bury people alive, but if Bush says it'd hurt the war, we'll never know about it. Fine, fine nation we've become.

 

[eits]

i'm so SO glad president bush took an oath. otherwise, he'd be completely unchecked and free to do whatever he wanted. thank God he took an oath which keeps him completely and unmistakably checked. best president ever. God bless president george w bush the great.













































































FVCK george w bush....

 

[mrphones]

Politics...Got a love it...Even on Anandtech you guys will find a way to spin everything.... I hope they continue to eavesdrop on anyone they find suspicious. You really think they are spying on us average citizens? No, they are spying on people who have "any" correspondence of any form with anyone outside the US or within it that may see as a threat to our security. Get used to; it's what will keep you and your family from ever seeing another terrorist act committed on US soil.

 

[eits]

anyone with the name mohammad al-hassani or something is "suspicious"....

being a middle eastern male in my early 20s, i'm automatically red-flagged (which kinda makes me wonder if i shoulda posted "fvck bush" in various forums threads).

 

[Rainsford]

Originally posted by: mrphones
Politics...Got a love it...Even on Anandtech you guys will find a way to spin everything.... I hope they continue to eavesdrop on anyone they find suspicious. You really think they are spying on us average citizens? No, they are spying on people who have "any" correspondence of any form with anyone outside the US or within it that may see as a threat to our security. Get used to; it's what will keep you and your family from ever seeing another terrorist act committed on US soil.

It's not about politics, and if it hasn't already been explained numerous times, I doubt me doing it again will allow it to sink into your skull any farther.

But answer me this, why can't they do all of that WITH warrents? I don't think anyone is disputing the need to eavesdrop on terrorism suspects, the question is why they can't do it with court orders and the like. A question you people have turned into "well we need to investigate". I couldn't agree more, but why is THIS method necessary?

 

[OrByte]

Originally posted by: mrphones
Politics...Got a love it...Even on Anandtech you guys will find a way to spin everything.... I hope they continue to eavesdrop on anyone they find suspicious. You really think they are spying on us average citizens? No, they are spying on people who have "any" correspondence of any form with anyone outside the US or within it that may see as a threat to our security. Get used to; it's what will keep you and your family from ever seeing another terrorist act committed on US soil.

so to hell with our rights as american citizens eh?

the day we give up our rights is the day the terrorists can claim victory. Because they will have successfully changed our way of life.

It doesn't matter who "they" are spying on. It is our constitution that is under attack.

dont let the "terra agenda" pull the wool over your eyes.

 

[imported_Condor]

Originally posted by: db
In April 2004 Bush had this to say about wiretaps:

"Now, by the way," he said, "any time you hear the United States government talking about wiretap, it requires -- a wiretap requires a court order. Nothing has changed, by the way. When we're talking about chasing down terrorists, we're talking about getting a court order before we do so. It's important for our fellow citizens to understand, when you think 'Patriot Act,' constitutional guarantees are in place when it comes to doing what is necessary to protect our homeland, because we value the Constitution."

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2004/04/20040420-2.html

Keyword is wiretap! 80's technology. Back to what is is? Bush learned that very well, didn't he? Wiretap is of a specific phone line in a specific place. Broad based monitoring of sat signals are just a little different.

For the education of those who don't know and won't bother to look it up:

wire·tap (wºr?t²p?) n. 1. A concealed listening or recording device connected to a communications circuit. 2. The act of installing such a device. --wire·tap v. wire·tapped, wire·tap·ping, wire·taps. --tr. 1. To connect a concealed listening or recording device to. 2. To monitor (a telephone line) by means of such a device. --intr. To install a concealed listening or recording device or use it to monitor communications. --wire?tap?per n.

 

[imported_Condor]

Originally posted by: mrphones
Politics...Got a love it...Even on Anandtech you guys will find a way to spin everything.... I hope they continue to eavesdrop on anyone they find suspicious. You really think they are spying on us average citizens? No, they are spying on people who have "any" correspondence of any form with anyone outside the US or within it that may see as a threat to our security. Get used to; it's what will keep you and your family from ever seeing another terrorist act committed on US soil.

Many posters here suffer from more than a little superstitious paranoia. They see spys behind every tree. I could care less who listens to my communications. If I have anything to hide, I hide it, I don't blubber it over a telephone or on a keyboard. I can't imagine many of the posters here actually have abything to hide either. They are just looking for something else to "get Bush" with.

 

[rickn]

Originally posted by: Condor

Originally posted by: mrphones
Politics...Got a love it...Even on Anandtech you guys will find a way to spin everything.... I hope they continue to eavesdrop on anyone they find suspicious. You really think they are spying on us average citizens? No, they are spying on people who have "any" correspondence of any form with anyone outside the US or within it that may see as a threat to our security. Get used to; it's what will keep you and your family from ever seeing another terrorist act committed on US soil.

Many posters here suffer from more than a little superstitious paranoia. They see spys behind every tree. I could care less who listens to my communications. If I have anything to hide, I hide it, I don't blubber it over a telephone or on a keyboard. I can't imagine many of the posters here actually have abything to hide either. They are just looking for something else to "get Bush" with.

that's the best you can come up with? how pathetic. the terrorists are smarter than you are, they probably don't make phone calls from their home phones, so what good did spying on american citizens accomplish? I just see this whole sham as the beginning of bigger troubles. You know the saying, give an inch and they'll take a mile. Bush's actions may be criminal, he's not above the law

 

[lanche]

Originally posted by: rickn

Originally posted by: Condor

Originally posted by: mrphones
Politics...Got a love it...Even on Anandtech you guys will find a way to spin everything.... I hope they continue to eavesdrop on anyone they find suspicious. You really think they are spying on us average citizens? No, they are spying on people who have "any" correspondence of any form with anyone outside the US or within it that may see as a threat to our security. Get used to; it's what will keep you and your family from ever seeing another terrorist act committed on US soil.

Many posters here suffer from more than a little superstitious paranoia. They see spys behind every tree. I could care less who listens to my communications. If I have anything to hide, I hide it, I don't blubber it over a telephone or on a keyboard. I can't imagine many of the posters here actually have abything to hide either. They are just looking for something else to "get Bush" with.

that's the best you can come up with? how pathetic. the terrorists are smarter than you are, they probably don't make phone calls from their home phones, so what good did spying on american citizens accomplish? I just see this whole sham as the beginning of bigger troubles. You know the saying, give an inch and they'll take a mile. Bush's actions may be criminal, he's not above the law

Bush authorized the NSA to listen to info originating OUTSIDE the US only and on only suspected persons with terrorist ties. And thank god he has continued to practice this tried and true method of preventing further terrorist attacks. Bush did nothing illegal and it did not start with this administration.

Here are a couple of Executive Orders from Clinton & Carter..

http://www.fas.org/irp/offdocs/eo12139.htm

http://www.fas.org/irp/offdocs/eo/eo-12949.htm

 

[lanche]

Originally posted by: lanche

Originally posted by: rickn

Originally posted by: Condor

Originally posted by: mrphones
Politics...Got a love it...Even on Anandtech you guys will find a way to spin everything.... I hope they continue to eavesdrop on anyone they find suspicious. You really think they are spying on us average citizens? No, they are spying on people who have "any" correspondence of any form with anyone outside the US or within it that may see as a threat to our security. Get used to; it's what will keep you and your family from ever seeing another terrorist act committed on US soil.

Many posters here suffer from more than a little superstitious paranoia. They see spys behind every tree. I could care less who listens to my communications. If I have anything to hide, I hide it, I don't blubber it over a telephone or on a keyboard. I can't imagine many of the posters here actually have abything to hide either. They are just looking for something else to "get Bush" with.

that's the best you can come up with? how pathetic. the terrorists are smarter than you are, they probably don't make phone calls from their home phones, so what good did spying on american citizens accomplish? I just see this whole sham as the beginning of bigger troubles. You know the saying, give an inch and they'll take a mile. Bush's actions may be criminal, he's not above the law

Bush authorized the NSA to listen to info originating OUTSIDE the US only and on only suspected persons with terrorist ties. And thank god he has continued to practice this tried and true method of preventing further terrorist attacks. Bush did nothing illegal and it did not start with this administration.

Here are a couple of Executive Orders from Clinton & Carter..

http://www.fas.org/irp/offdocs/eo12139.htm

http://www.fas.org/irp/offdocs/eo/eo-12949.htm

1-101. Pursuant to Section 102(a)(1) of the Foreign Intelligence
Surveillance Act of 1978 (50 U.S.C. 1802(a)), the Attorney General
is authorized to approve electronic surveillance to acquire foreign
intelligence information without a court order, but only if the
Attorney General makes the certifications required by that Section.

 

[bob661]

Keyword is wiretap!

It's generic term and it DOES include any type of eavesdropping regardless of technology.

 

[imported_Condor]

Originally posted by: rickn

Originally posted by: Condor

Originally posted by: mrphones
Politics...Got a love it...Even on Anandtech you guys will find a way to spin everything.... I hope they continue to eavesdrop on anyone they find suspicious. You really think they are spying on us average citizens? No, they are spying on people who have "any" correspondence of any form with anyone outside the US or within it that may see as a threat to our security. Get used to; it's what will keep you and your family from ever seeing another terrorist act committed on US soil.

Many posters here suffer from more than a little superstitious paranoia. They see spys behind every tree. I could care less who listens to my communications. If I have anything to hide, I hide it, I don't blubber it over a telephone or on a keyboard. I can't imagine many of the posters here actually have abything to hide either. They are just looking for something else to "get Bush" with.

that's the best you can come up with? how pathetic. the terrorists are smarter than you are, they probably don't make phone calls from their home phones, so what good did spying on american citizens accomplish? I just see this whole sham as the beginning of bigger troubles. You know the saying, give an inch and they'll take a mile. Bush's actions may be criminal, he's not above the law

You take your ginko today? Thought not! Home phones are "wiretapping"! See previous post. Terrorists used cell phones both domestically and abroad for communications. Monitoring them while they are inside the US falls under what you libs would like to call call impeachable offenses. Get over it!

 

[conjur]

Originally posted by: lanche
Bush authorized the NSA to listen to info originating OUTSIDE the US only and on only suspected persons with terrorist ties. And thank god he has continued to practice this tried and true method of preventing further terrorist attacks. Bush did nothing illegal and it did not start with this administration.

Yeah, right. And Clinton never had sexual relations with that woman.


http://www.nytimes.com/2005/12/21/polit...b0a7ddc&ei=5088&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss

WASHINGTON, Dec. 20 - A surveillance program approved by President Bush to conduct eavesdropping without warrants has captured what are purely domestic communications in some cases, despite a requirement by the White House that one end of the intercepted conversations take place on foreign soil, officials say.

The officials say the National Security Agency's interception of a small number of communications between people within the United States was apparently accidental, and was caused by technical glitches at the National Security Agency in determining whether a communication was in fact "international."

Telecommunications experts say the issue points up troubling logistical questions about the program. At a time when communications networks are increasingly globalized, it is sometimes difficult even for the N.S.A. to determine whether someone is inside or outside the United States when making a cellphone call or sending an e-mail message. As a result, people that the security agency may think are outside the United States are actually on American soil.

Vice President Dick Cheney entered the debate over the legality of the program on Tuesday, casting the program as part of the administration's efforts to assert broader presidential powers. [Page A36.]

Eavesdropping on communications between two people who are both inside the United States is prohibited under Mr. Bush's order allowing some domestic surveillance.

But in at least one instance, someone using an international cellphone was thought to be outside the United States when in fact both people in the conversation were in the country. Officials, who spoke on condition of anonymity because the program remains classified, would not discuss the number of accidental intercepts, but the total is thought to represent a very small fraction of the total number of wiretaps that Mr. Bush has authorized without getting warrants. In all, officials say the program has been used to eavesdrop on as many as 500 people at any one time, with the total number of people reaching perhaps into the thousands in the last three years.

An accidental wiretap of a purely domestic call? BS.

And I'd bet my last dollar there were many, many more like that and I'd also be willing to bet that some of those wiretaps were of political opponents that in no way, shape, or form could be conceived as terrorists.

Here are a couple of Executive Orders from Clinton & Carter..

http://www.fas.org/irp/offdocs/eo12139.htm

http://www.fas.org/irp/offdocs/eo/eo-12949.htm

And? We've been over those. Those all were within the confines of FISA and were nothing like what this asshat of a president has been doing.