Bush approves only of heterosexual marriage

[Netopia]

Bribe him into conversion?

I don't get what you mean.

Joe

 

[Netopia]

I need to make an apology and a correction. I just noticed that way up on this page I made a an argument based on a quote from the Constitution. Somehow I got all bassackwards and quoted from the Declaration of Independence instead. Really bad post, sorry.

Joe

 

[conjur]

Originally posted by: Netopia
HardwareAddicted makes a good point though... it is TOTAL hipocrisy for those who aren't Christians to stand in a Church and say vows just so that they have a "pretty" wedding and nice photos when they in fact don't believe in any of it. I've known people who have gotten HIGHLY PO'ed when they've been told by a Preacher that he wouldn't marry them unless they were both believers and were willing to go to premarriage counselling.... one of them is one of my longest (35+ years) and best friends.

He said that guy had no right to "judge" him or to determine whether or not he and his fiancee were ready for marriage. I tried to explain to him that the Minister felt that he was performing a sacred ceremony and had an obligation to not enter into it lightly... that he was doing his best to be sure that the marriage was starting on solid ground... and that since it was a religious ceremony he felt it appropriate that the people involved REALLY believed all of the things they were saying. He ended up paying some other minister he'd never met to do the wedding for $100 bucks or something... it really was a shame though... he never got what the minister was trying to do.

Joe

What about all of the weddings performed at someone's home and presided over by a Justice of the Peace? Or performed aboard a ship (are those legal?) How many done by an Elvis impersonator? Religous beliefs are not a required part of the legal process of getting married.

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: Netopia

Why are Fundies so worried about what others do?

Because people together make a society and I care about WHERE that society is going. BTW, I don't feel that we need to be invading people's bedrooms to see if their private relations measure up to some sort of standard. I believe that is LITERALLY their private life and society shouldn't be prying into it. OTOH, that which is done/practiced/appoved of in the open is, I think, open to public debate and legislation.

What about Blue Laws... why aren't you guys all up in arm about them? They've been around forever!

Joe

I don't see Blue Laws as being as discriminatory as prohibiting Same Sex Marriages.

OTOH, that which is done/practiced/appoved of in the open is, I think, open to public debate and legislation.

Well there are some people who feel inter Racial Marriages should be prohibited. Should that also be open to public Debate and legislation?

 

[HardwareAddicted]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: HardwareAddicted

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Do you think MAN thought this up ?

Yep just like he thought up religion!

LOL .... yeah right.

I don't really how you believe things.... knock yourself out.

But don't crap on people that have ACTUALLY read about it and proved it for themselves.

Just because you don't have the balls to do the same gives you no right to claim it's wrong.

Again, I'm not really fanitical about it, I don't walk on water, but I do tire of people who put things down they don't understand.

I would have more respect for anyone who at least tries to study and learn... but not namecallers and flamers.... I have no time for them really.

~ Mark

Yeah practice what you preach. Like most Americans as a youth I was force fee religion and I came to the conclusion that it was rubbish and intrusive (kind of like our government of today) Believe in it if you want but don't expect us to believe or respect it.

I try to practice what I believe, and I respect others with different beliefs .... no problemo.
And as such, I expect others to at least respect it ... but no, you don't HAVE to believe in anything if you don't want to.

Q: What is " force fee religion " ?

~ Mark

 

[amcdonald]

Originally posted by: ElFenix

Originally posted by: conjur

He's taking his religious beliefs and pushing them onto the rest of the country as law. Separation of Church and State ring a bell?

law is merely a set of beliefs codified and enforced.

Codified?? Jesus H Christ, and this Moron is a lifer.

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: HardwareAddicted

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: HardwareAddicted

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Do you think MAN thought this up ?

Yep just like he thought up religion!

LOL .... yeah right.

I don't really how you believe things.... knock yourself out.

But don't crap on people that have ACTUALLY read about it and proved it for themselves.

Just because you don't have the balls to do the same gives you no right to claim it's wrong.

Again, I'm not really fanitical about it, I don't walk on water, but I do tire of people who put things down they don't understand.

I would have more respect for anyone who at least tries to study and learn... but not namecallers and flamers.... I have no time for them really.

~ Mark

Yeah practice what you preach. Like most Americans as a youth I was force fee religion and I came to the conclusion that it was rubbish and intrusive (kind of like our government of today) Believe in it if you want but don't expect us to believe or respect it.

I try to practice what I believe, and I respect others with different beliefs .... no problemo.
And as such, I expect others to at least respect it ... but no, you don't HAVE to believe in anything if you don't want to.

Q: What is " force fee religion " ?

~ Mark

A Typo for "Force Fed"

 

[HardwareAddicted]

Originally posted by: Jzero

But don't crap on people that have ACTUALLY read about it and proved it for themselves.

Did I read that right?

Yes, you did.

Although it may be a new thread for that topic.

I don't want to take away from conjur's original post/thread.

~ Mark

 

[HardwareAddicted]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: HardwareAddicted

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: HardwareAddicted

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Do you think MAN thought this up ?

Yep just like he thought up religion!

LOL .... yeah right.

I don't really how you believe things.... knock yourself out.

But don't crap on people that have ACTUALLY read about it and proved it for themselves.

Just because you don't have the balls to do the same gives you no right to claim it's wrong.

Again, I'm not really fanitical about it, I don't walk on water, but I do tire of people who put things down they don't understand.

I would have more respect for anyone who at least tries to study and learn... but not namecallers and flamers.... I have no time for them really.

~ Mark

Yeah practice what you preach. Like most Americans as a youth I was force fee religion and I came to the conclusion that it was rubbish and intrusive (kind of like our government of today) Believe in it if you want but don't expect us to believe or respect it.

I try to practice what I believe, and I respect others with different beliefs .... no problemo.
And as such, I expect others to at least respect it ... but no, you don't HAVE to believe in anything if you don't want to.

Q: What is " force fee religion " ?

~ Mark

A Typo for "Force Fed"

Ah... ok... I gotcha now.

I'm really sorry to hear that.... I think many have been turned away for just that reason.
This is why I taught my daughter (when she was old enuf to understand) that she should go to church and follow Christ only if she wanted to.
But NOT to do it for my sake... I believe this would be wrong.
Jesus never told anyone they MUST follow him .... he just invites.
So I took this example very literally and did the same for her ..... her choice, her salvation.

And although you will see many preach, the only soul I need to worry about is my own. ( <-- Full time job) 🙂

~ Mark

 

[Encryptic]

Originally posted by: Netopia
HardwareAddicted makes a good point though... it is TOTAL hipocrisy for those who aren't Christians to stand in a Church and say vows just so that they have a "pretty" wedding and nice photos when they in fact don't believe in any of it. I've known people who have gotten HIGHLY PO'ed when they've been told by a Preacher that he wouldn't marry them unless they were both believers and were willing to go to premarriage counselling.... one of them is one of my longest (35+ years) and best friends.

He said that guy had no right to "judge" him or to determine whether or not he and his fiancee were ready for marriage. I tried to explain to him that the Minister felt that he was performing a sacred ceremony and had an obligation to not enter into it lightly... that he was doing his best to be sure that the marriage was starting on solid ground... and that since it was a religious ceremony he felt it appropriate that the people involved REALLY believed all of the things they were saying. He ended up paying some other minister he'd never met to do the wedding for $100 bucks or something... it really was a shame though... he never got what the minister was trying to do.

Joe

I said my vows in a church. Doesn't make my marriage any less valid in my eyes just because I don't believe in God. We did the whole "in sickness and in health, for richer or for poorer" thing. When I said the vows, I was making the vows to my wife and I meant them. It has nothing to do with religion and everything to do with being compatible with someone and being able to stick with them through the good times and the bad times.

I agree with your friend here. It's not the minister's business to pass judgment on a marriage. He should perform the service or give it over to someone else if he feels he can't do it himself. Just don't presume to pass judgment upon me or my wife for our "lack of faith" or try to tell me that your marriage is any better than mine because you believe in God. You can be religious and still have a crappy marriage. It's all about the two people involved, not their belief in God.

My wife and I have been through bad times and we get through them because we love each other and we keep each other going, not because of religion. The ceremony just "legally" affirmed the commitment we had already made to each other.

 

[amcdonald]

Originally posted by: Sunner

Compare it to laws regarding brother/sister relationships for example, those are in place for a reason other than someone's view on morality.
Those laws are in place to prevent inbreeding for one thing.
Now if some guy and his sister wanna "just get it on" once in a while, by all means, I couldn't care less, to me that's certainly pretty nasty, but Im in no position to tell two grown up people what to do or not, so long as they don't hurt anyone else.

While its true that brother/sister relations can produce retarded offspring , this is not the reason for the laws against their copulation. These laws and others like it are purely based on morality. You don't agree? Then why are people with genetic/transmissible diseases allowed to produce offspring, when they will knowingly pass on these retardations? Why are retarded people allowed to reproduce?

 

[Jzero]

What about Blue Laws... why aren't you guys all up in arm about them? They've been around forever!

Blue laws are established at the state level. While I disagree with them (Screw you, commonwealth of PA!), they are not unconstitutional. I do believe that prohibition should never have occurred for the same reason I don't think a marriage amendment is legal.

Unfortunately, there's not much we can do about the past failures, but we can at least try and prevent future failures.

 

[DorkBoy]

Post your ignorance elsewhere

 

[Ausm]

Originally posted by: HardwareAddicted

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: HardwareAddicted

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: HardwareAddicted

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Do you think MAN thought this up ?

Yep just like he thought up religion!

LOL .... yeah right.

I don't really how you believe things.... knock yourself out.

But don't crap on people that have ACTUALLY read about it and proved it for themselves.

Just because you don't have the balls to do the same gives you no right to claim it's wrong.


Now your the type of religious person I can handle...Please take that as a compliment.

Ausm

Again, I'm not really fanitical about it, I don't walk on water, but I do tire of people who put things down they don't understand.

I would have more respect for anyone who at least tries to study and learn... but not namecallers and flamers.... I have no time for them really.

~ Mark

Yeah practice what you preach. Like most Americans as a youth I was force fee religion and I came to the conclusion that it was rubbish and intrusive (kind of like our government of today) Believe in it if you want but don't expect us to believe or respect it.

I try to practice what I believe, and I respect others with different beliefs .... no problemo.
And as such, I expect others to at least respect it ... but no, you don't HAVE to believe in anything if you don't want to.

Q: What is " force fee religion " ?

~ Mark

A Typo for "Force Fed"

Ah... ok... I gotcha now.

I'm really sorry to hear that.... I think many have been turned away for just that reason.
This is why I taught my daughter (when she was old enuf to understand) that she should go to church and follow Christ only if she wanted to.
But NOT to do it for my sake... I believe this would be wrong.
Jesus never told anyone they MUST follow him .... he just invites.
So I took this example very literally and did the same for her ..... her choice, her salvation.

And although you will see many preach, the only soul I need to worry about is my own. ( <-- Full time job) 🙂

~ Mark

Finally a religious person with a open mind...Please take that as a compliment.

Ausm

 

[Netopia]

What about all of the weddings performed at someone's home and presided over by a Justice of the Peace? Or performed aboard a ship (are those legal?) How many done by an Elvis impersonator? Religous beliefs are not a required part of the legal process of getting married.

I agree with you. The only thing that I (and I think HardwareAddicted)was making was that it is hypocritical for people who don't believe to get married in a church. I would say that those people were doing the right thing getting married in the ways that you specified.

I don't see Blue Laws as being as discriminatory as prohibiting Same Sex Marriages.

The point is that it is law based on religious beliefs... and specifically Christian religious beliefs too as Sunday has no special function in Judaism, Islam or any other major religion I know of.

Well there are some people who feel inter Racial Marriages should be prohibited. Should that also be open to public Debate and legislation?

Absolutely.... and you and I would (I imagine) be standing on the same side of that issue. But anything that isn't unconstitutional should be available for looking at EVEN IF YOU OR I DISAGREE WITH IT.

I said my vows in a church. Doesn't make my marriage any less valid in my eyes just because I don't believe in God.

Nope, your marriage is valid. The only thing it points to is you being hypocritical by using the trappings of religion that you don't even believe in. Were ANY of the following used in your wedding: God, Lord, Christ, Holy Spirit, Spirit, Father (referring to God)? If they were and you participated in that ceremony then you were being rather disingenuous and hypocritcal by being involved. Doesn't make your marriage invalid... but if your vows contained any form or term for God and you showed affirmation (i.e. I DO) then you lied when you took your marriage vows. I could see you saying "I was only saying "I DO" to the part about my wife, but the whole thing is one covenant, part and parcel.

I agree with your friend here. It's not the minister's business to pass judgment on a marriage. He should perform the service or give it over to someone else if he feels he can't do it himself.

I guess you didn't grasp the situation... that's pretty much what he did... he had requirements for having him perform the ceremony, if they didn't desire that, they were free to go elsewhere. As for their faith... they were going to a religious person to be married... do you REALLY think it's too much to ask for verification that they actually believe in the religion they are going to for the ceremony? Also, as far as I'm concerned, any minister who doesn't DEMAND that couples engage in premarital counseling is an idiot. With the divorce rate these days, SOMEONE has to make an attempt at making sure that the people entering into marriage really understand the ramifications of what they are doing.

The ceremony just "legally" affirmed the commitment we had already made to each other.

If that's all it was then you should have done it with a JP and not used a church you don't believe in just to satisfy your own desires.


Joe

 

[Encryptic]

Originally posted by: Netopia

What about all of the weddings performed at someone's home and presided over by a Justice of the Peace? Or performed aboard a ship (are those legal?) How many done by an Elvis impersonator? Religous beliefs are not a required part of the legal process of getting married.

I agree with you. The only thing that I (and I think HardwareAddicted)was making was that it is hypocritical for people who don't believe to get married in a church. I would say that those people were doing the right thing getting married in the ways that you specified.

I don't see Blue Laws as being as discriminatory as prohibiting Same Sex Marriages.

The point is that it is law based on religious beliefs... and specifically Christian religious beliefs too as Sunday has no special function in Judaism, Islam or any other major religion I know of.

Well there are some people who feel inter Racial Marriages should be prohibited. Should that also be open to public Debate and legislation?

Absolutely.... and you and I would (I imagine) be standing on the same side of that issue. But anything that isn't unconstitutional should be available for looking at EVEN IF YOU OR I DISAGREE WITH IT.

I said my vows in a church. Doesn't make my marriage any less valid in my eyes just because I don't believe in God.

Nope, your marriage is valid. The only thing it points to is you being hypocritical by using the trappings of religion that you don't even believe in. Were ANY of the following used in your wedding: God, Lord, Christ, Holy Spirit, Spirit, Father (referring to God)? If they were and you participated in that ceremony then you were being rather disingenuous and hypocritcal by being involved. Doesn't make your marriage invalid... but if your vows contained any form or term for God and you showed affirmation (i.e. I DO) then you lied when you took your marriage vows. I could see you saying "I was only saying "I DO" to the part about my wife, but the whole thing is one covenant, part and parcel.

I agree with your friend here. It's not the minister's business to pass judgment on a marriage. He should perform the service or give it over to someone else if he feels he can't do it himself.

I guess you didn't grasp the situation... that's pretty much what he did... he had requirements for having him perform the ceremony, if they didn't desire that, they were free to go elsewhere. As for their faith... they were going to a religious person to be married... do you REALLY think it's too much to ask for verification that they actually believe in the religion they are going to for the ceremony? Also, as far as I'm concerned, any minister who doesn't DEMAND that couples engage in premarital counseling is an idiot. With the divorce rate these days, SOMEONE has to make an attempt at making sure that the people entering into marriage really understand the ramifications of what they are doing.

The ceremony just "legally" affirmed the commitment we had already made to each other.

If that's all it was then you should have done it with a JP and not used a church you don't believe in just to satisfy your own desires.


Joe

Give me a break. The people who should be concerned with making sure their marriage works are the people getting married in the first place. The minister doesn't have any business telling people to get counseling before they get married, nor should he be placed in charge of doing so. If they get divorced afterwards, it's not his fault. It's their fault for getting married in the first place.

If I lied to "God" by saying "I do", then I don't really care. I wasn't lying to my wife, however and that's all that really matters to me. We affirmed our commitment in the eyes of the law at a wedding chapel in Vegas because that was the quickest and easiest way for us to get married.

 

[Netopia]

The people who should be concerned with making sure their marriage works are the people getting married in the first place.

Well, considering the divorce rate in this country it doesn't look like they are quite up to the task, does it?

The minister doesn't have any business telling people to get counseling before they get married, nor should he be placed in charge of doing so.

You're speaking about what you don't even know about. Did it ever occur to you that the congregations WANT their ministers to do these things? Mine does and the church WANTS him to. The ONLY marriage that I know of where the couple was told they shouldn't get married went elsewhere and had it done... and were divorced within a couple years. It's ONLY the third divorce I know of out of people at my church in the last 15 years.

If I lied to "God" by saying "I do", then I don't really care. I wasn't lying to my wife, however and that's all that really matters to me. We affirmed our commitment in the eyes of the law at a wedding chapel in Vegas because that was the quickest and easiest way for us to get married.

The point wouldn't be who you lied to, so much as it would be an indication of charecter for you to be willing to lie to have a "church" wedding. To be honest, the point may be moot since I've no idea what sort of a "religious person" was in the Vegas Wedding Chapel. Again... I don't think your marriage is less of a marriage, but your hypocricy in using a religious symbol/institution when you don't even believe speaks volumes.

Joe

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: Netopia

The people who should be concerned with making sure their marriage works are the people getting married in the first place.

Well, considering the divorce rate in this country it doesn't look like they are quite up to the task, does it?

The minister doesn't have any business telling people to get counseling before they get married, nor should he be placed in charge of doing so.

You're speaking about what you don't even know about. Did it ever occur to you that the congregations WANT their ministers to do these things? Mine does and the church WANTS him to. The ONLY marriage that I know of where the couple was told they shouldn't get married went elsewhere and had it done... and were divorced within a couple years. It's ONLY the third divorce I know of out of people at my church in the last 15 years.

If I lied to "God" by saying "I do", then I don't really care. I wasn't lying to my wife, however and that's all that really matters to me. We affirmed our commitment in the eyes of the law at a wedding chapel in Vegas because that was the quickest and easiest way for us to get married.

The point wouldn't be who you lied to, so much as it would be an indication of charecter for you to be willing to lie to have a "church" wedding. To be honest, the point may be moot since I've no idea what sort of a "religious person" was in the Vegas Wedding Chapel. Again... I don't think your marriage is less of a marriage, but your hypocricy in using a religious symbol/institution when you don't even believe speaks volumes.

Joe

It's all Pomp and Ceremony Joe, there is no Hipocrasy. If you don't believe in the Mythology then you aren't lying to any Diety.

 

[21Jumper]

Oh. So he finally did something right then.

 

[Netopia]

It's all Pomp and Ceremony Joe, there is no Hipocrasy. If you don't believe in the Mythology then you aren't lying to any Diety.

Quite possibly to an unbeliever who decides to join in, but it is very disrespectful to the people whose religion is being used... and I'm using "used" in the most negative manner possible. And I still think it's hypocritical.

Joe

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: Netopia

It's all Pomp and Ceremony Joe, there is no Hipocrasy. If you don't believe in the Mythology then you aren't lying to any Diety.

Quite possibly to an unbeliever who decides to join in, but it is very disrespectful to the people whose religion is being used... and I'm using "used" in the most negative manner possible. And I still think it's hypocritical.

Joe

How are you being used?

 

[imported_Papi]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn
This is just another case of the Religious Totalitarians trying to push their hypocritical moral standards on others.

And that is the bottom line.

 

[Jzero]

Originally posted by: Netopia

It's all Pomp and Ceremony Joe, there is no Hipocrasy. If you don't believe in the Mythology then you aren't lying to any Diety.

Quite possibly to an unbeliever who decides to join in, but it is very disrespectful to the people whose religion is being used... and I'm using "used" in the most negative manner possible. And I still think it's hypocritical.

Joe

Is it any worse than the those who are "using" their OWN church in the same most negative manner? At least he's being honest. Nevermind the many millions of people who are just going through the motions but really don't have any belief in their own church.

 

[Netopia]

How are you being used?

I'm not... the religious organization is, be it Hindu, Buddist, Pagan or Christian. It isn't right to enter into the sacred ceremonies of a religion that you don't believe in.

Joe

 

[conjur]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: Netopia

It's all Pomp and Ceremony Joe, there is no Hipocrasy. If you don't believe in the Mythology then you aren't lying to any Diety.

Quite possibly to an unbeliever who decides to join in, but it is very disrespectful to the people whose religion is being used... and I'm using "used" in the most negative manner possible. And I still think it's hypocritical.

Joe

How are you being used?

Because a person who gets married in a church (with its religious overtones) but cares nothing of religion and doesn't believe in God is raping his belief system. He's offended.

I suppose.