Bush approves only of heterosexual marriage

[Rob9874]

Originally posted by: Stark

Unfortunately, for parents who study and believe in things like God, the Bible, and Heaven and Hell, the job becomes much trickier, as the eternal destination of the soul become the primary hope for their children. It's the whole "difficult narrow road/easy wide road" parable played out in the modern family.

Well thank God that it's his grace that gets you into Heaven, and not your own works. If we had to earn our way into Heaven, we'd all be in Hell.

 

[ElFenix]

Originally posted by: conjur

He's taking his religious beliefs and pushing them onto the rest of the country as law. Separation of Church and State ring a bell?

law is merely a set of beliefs codified and enforced.

 

[Geekbabe]

Originally posted by: Netopia
It's already been said, but Mill is not necessarily any more right than scripture. You accept his writings, so they are truth to you. Sounds like religion to me!

...in America then you must abide by the constitution, which states, unequivocally, that all citizens are created equal, and are entitled to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

It's really TOO convenient that you leave out some inportant aspects of that Constitution. How is it that we are equal? The Constitution says were are "created" equal, not that we evolved from a chaotic universe. How about this (emphasis added)

When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

The Constitution says that God and His natural Laws are what gave our country the authority to be autonomous. The Constitution says that any rights we may have are NOT given by the Government, but by our Creator (God). Don't invoke the authority of the Consitution unless you are willing to accept where IT says its authority comes from.

You don't see your bigotry and discriminatory opinion!! Geez, dude...open your eyes! You are restricting what others should be free to do in their own personal lives! Who died and made you your God?

You don't get it... at all! You are equally discriminatory, you just draw your lines in the sand in different places. You are too blind to see that and couch your error in terms like "that's between consenting adults"... that's simply YOUR VIEW of morality! Go to Africa and you may see a 9 year old forced into marriage and have her virginity taken at that age and have it be considered COMPLETELY MORAL in the culture! You make your own view of morals and consider them "right" and look down on anything else. I guarentee you some guy from NAMBLA would probably feel about your morals the same way you feel about mine and would have about as much respect for your basis in adult consent as you do in mine being based on Scripture... but you know what? IT DOESN'T MATTER! You are free to have your say and so am I. We can vote and whatever comes is what comes! You do your best to do what's right and so do I, you by your standards and me by mine.... we are both 'trying' to do the same thing, we just don't agree on what right is.

BTW... I completely get your and everyone else's arguements. From a purely secular viewpoint I probably even agree with you guys on this issue. What you can't seem to grasp is that there are many a Christian who have looked at issues from both sides and decided that God's way is best. You may not accept that arguement, but if you can't understand that some people simply trust God truth more than man's then you are in for a lot of hard battles.

Stalin was a madman abusing power. The Crusades, the Inqusition, etc. were killing people purely in the name of God and that their God was better or the right God. Puh-leeze.

Again you don't seem to be able to grasp the concept! The people who did what you said "in the name of God" were NOT following the teachings of God, just as Stalin wasn't a spokesman for atheists even though he espoused and enforced it. Abuse of power is what causes atrocities, religion, politics, race... those are just covers.

WTF??? No! I'm talking my right, should I so desire, to marry someone of the same sex! That is PRIVATE!

Until you walk out your front door, then it's public.

It's so pathetic the lengths that some will go to to make themselves feel better about their own lives and so they infringe upon others' to help validate their own. Homophobes are pathetic and as society changes the hatred towards homos will subside just as the hatred towards Blacks has muchly subsided and continues to subside in time.

I love the way some people think they know everyone else's agenda and motives! Let's see... so without knowing me, you ASSume that I am against homosexuality just to make me feel better about my life and that I get validation from that. You also seem to ASSume that I hate homosexuals, which I don't. Why is it SOOO hard for some of you to understand that we disagree with an issue, that we simply think it's wrong? Why MUST YOU infer that we are scared or full of hate or full of ignorance? Have you never heard of someone simply having an OPINION? The problem is that you want us to JUSTIFY TO YOU the reasons for our opinions... and when we do, you say "nope, religion doesn't count". Sorry you can't accept the simple truth, get over it!

You and Netopia will still want to call that morals, but if you live in this country, you are required to ascribe to the tenet that everyone is equal.

Everyone IS equal on this issue. ANYONE can marry a spouse of the opposite sex. That is open to EVERYONE! If you don't have a desire to do so, no one is holding a gun to your head. If you can't find someone of the opposite sex who you find attractive and who likes you, stay single.... straight people do it all the time!

My bottom line critera for any prospective lifemate of my child is that they make my baby happy..period,end of subject.

If this is all there is to life, more power to you. But if there is an afterlife that is eternal, then the perspective of this life being all important evaporates. BTW, I've got 4 kids ranging from 5 to 15, so no imaginary kids here. Also many more years of real life experience than many.

Joe

Would you disown one of those kids if they grew up to be gay?

Persnallly,if beliving in God means I'm expected to turn my face away from people that I spent years of my life rearing,caring for and loving well... thanks but no thanks Ill stay a godless heathen.

 

[Jzero]

But you fail to understand he is overstepping his bounds with that statement he made. I'm confident that Congress will not let such a piece of trash go through successfully. But, what scares me more is Bush making some sort of Executive Order to somehow have his way.

He's taking his religious beliefs and pushing them onto the rest of the country as law. Separation of Church and State ring a bell?

That's what he was hired to do. We elect/appoint these people to govern the nation based on how they best see fit. We have a republic, not a straight democracy. The officials are not required to always follow the majority opinion, and they are free to make whatever statements they wish. The tripartite system of executive-legislature-judiciary was created expressly to make sure that the president cannot bend the entire nation without approval from many others in the country.

Further, the concept of "separation of church and state" means that the government cannot establish an official religion (e.g. Church Of England), nor can it prohibit any religion(s) (e.g. Falun Gong in China). It does NOT mean that elected/appointed officials must abandon their religious beliefs. Presidents, Congressmen, Senators, and Justices all will
draw upon their individual religious histories when they pen bills and vote on the bills of others.

Take abortion. If the religious right managed to get abortion banned, such a law would be based in their religious beliefs, but it would not violate the 1st Amendment nor the undocumented feature of separation of church and state.

I still think the "marriage amendment" would be a direct contradiction to Amendment X, just had to interject.
Continue flaming.

 

[Rob9874]

Originally posted by: Netopia
I love the way some people think they know everyone else's agenda and motives! Let's see... so without knowing me, you ASSume that I am against homosexuality just to make me feel better about my life and that I get validation from that. You also seem to ASSume that I hate homosexuals, which I don't. Why is it SOOO hard for some of you to understand that we disagree with an issue, that we simply think it's wrong? Why MUST YOU infer that we are scared or full of hate or full of ignorance? Have you never heard of someone simply having an OPINION? The problem is that you want us to JUSTIFY TO YOU the reasons for our opinions... and when we do, you say "nope, religion doesn't count". Sorry you can't accept the simple truth, get over it!

That is the most intelligent post I've seen on this topic. You can't respond to a differing opinion by saying the other person is just hateful or ignorant. An enlightened person isn't one who blindly accepts everything. Universal acceptance doesn't equal intelligence.

 

[0roo0roo]

only reason these people are so upset is they are under the delusion that gay rubs off. oh no! a gay plague will fall over the country and we'll all go extinct!! its beyond irrational.

 

[ElFenix]

Originally posted by: 0roo0roo
only reason these people are so upset is... that gay rubs off. oh no! a gay plague will fall over the country and we'll all go extinct!!

it does?!?! OH NOES!

 

[HardwareAddicted]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: HardwareAddicted

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: Lutefisks
Marriage is a religious instituion, and is defined as between a man and a woman.

However, I also belive that gays should be allowed to have some sort of union, you can't call it a marriage.

So, I agree with Bush to a point.

Since when is it the soul domain of Mythology (Reigion) Many of us who don't buy into that Religious Mumbo Jumbo are Married.

Does this make you a hypocrite ?

To get married in the name of God, in whom you don't believe in ..... kinda sad really.

I'm sorry you believe Jesus Christ is just mythology .... you just need to look in better places.

I'm really not trying to turn this into a religion thread either, I just felt the need to make clear how obsurd getting married is, but claiming no belief.

I guess it's all about the $$$$

So I would further point out that the love of money must be the root of all evil.

The more you watch the world, the more you prove religion, it would seem.... just like this case here.

Flame if you want to ... I've heard it all B4

~ Mark

I would flame you but you don't make any sense!

It's painfully clear you don't get it ..... tell me something I don't know already.

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: HardwareAddicted

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: HardwareAddicted

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: Lutefisks
Marriage is a religious instituion, and is defined as between a man and a woman.

However, I also belive that gays should be allowed to have some sort of union, you can't call it a marriage.

So, I agree with Bush to a point.

Since when is it the soul domain of Mythology (Reigion) Many of us who don't buy into that Religious Mumbo Jumbo are Married.

Does this make you a hypocrite ?

To get married in the name of God, in whom you don't believe in ..... kinda sad really.

I'm sorry you believe Jesus Christ is just mythology .... you just need to look in better places.

I'm really not trying to turn this into a religion thread either, I just felt the need to make clear how obsurd getting married is, but claiming no belief.

I guess it's all about the $$$$

So I would further point out that the love of money must be the root of all evil.

The more you watch the world, the more you prove religion, it would seem.... just like this case here.

Flame if you want to ... I've heard it all B4

~ Mark

I would flame you but you don't make any sense!

It's painfully clear you don't get it ..... tell me something I don't know already.

I bet if you remove your head from yer arse the pain will subside!

 

[Ausm]

Originally posted by: conjur

Originally posted by: Lutefisks
Marriage is a religious instituion, and is defined as between a man and a woman.

However, I also belive that gays should be allowed to have some sort of union, you can't call it a marriage.

So, I agree with Bush to a point.

Marriage is actually a legal institution. That's why it requires a court to dissolve it (divorce).

I see no reason why same-sex marriages shouldn't be treated the same as non-same-sex. I mean...isn't this country about freedom? About freedom from discrimination? From persecution?

Isn't this country about freedom...Yeah right...that's why goverment is constantly enforcing no smoking laws without giving a fvck whether or not it is violating the civil liberties of people who do smoke.

Persecution?!?!?! Try being a smoker once...then you will know what it is like to have less rights thens an Aids infected Homeless non-tax paying Hatian refugee.

Ausm

 

[conjur]

Originally posted by: ausm

Originally posted by: conjur
Marriage is actually a legal institution. That's why it requires a court to dissolve it (divorce).

I see no reason why same-sex marriages shouldn't be treated the same as non-same-sex. I mean...isn't this country about freedom? About freedom from discrimination? From persecution?

Isn't this country about freedom...Yeah right...that's why goverment is constantly enforcing no smoking laws without giving a fvck whether or not it is violating the civil liberties of people who do smoke.

Persecution?!?!?! Try being a smoker once...then you will know what it is like to have less rights thens an Aids infected Homeless non-tax paying Hatian refugee.

Ausm

Well, again, someone fails to see the difference here.

Homosexual marriages will harm NO ONE!

2nd-hand smoke is harmful. Deal with it.

 

[HardwareAddicted]

Originally posted by: Skyclad1uhm1

Originally posted by: HardwareAddicted

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: Lutefisks
Marriage is a religious instituion, and is defined as between a man and a woman.

However, I also belive that gays should be allowed to have some sort of union, you can't call it a marriage.

So, I agree with Bush to a point.

Since when is it the soul domain of Mythology (Reigion) Many of us who don't buy into that Religious Mumbo Jumbo are Married.

Does this make you a hypocrite ?

To get married in the name of God, in whom you don't believe in ..... kinda sad really.

I'm sorry you believe Jesus Christ is just mythology .... you just need to look in better places.

I'm really not trying to turn this into a religion thread either, I just felt the need to make clear how obsurd getting married is, but claiming no belief.

I guess it's all about the $$$$

So I would further point out that the love of money must be the root of all evil.

The more you watch the world, the more you prove religion, it would seem.... just like this case here.

Flame if you want to ... I've heard it all B4

~ Mark

Marriage is not a Christian invention (nor Jewish), and in most western countries you can marry for the law instead of the church. You sign legal contracts to show your partner what you feel, and to arrange her/his legal right as partner. This has nothing to do with religion, and you do not have to marry in the name of God. You can even choose what words you will use for the marriage ceremony in several countries, so you can speak out that you will hunt down and kill all Jesusfreaks together if that's what you want.

Just cause you're a Jesusfreak doesn't mean everyone is so ignorant as you. Luckily there are people in the world who actually use their brain, rather than believing in a farce and wanting to use that believe to f*ck up the lives of everyone else.

LOL .... WHAT ???
Where do you think marriage comes from in the first place ? Do you think MAN thought this up ? You kill me dude ..... LOL
I never said you had to be some "JesusFreak" or fanitical about religion or church either .... so take a chill pill dude.
My point was more along the lines of "If you have a strong DIS-BELIEF, then why go and take out vows in a church ?

Although you make a valid point about what we define as marraige nowadays, this is just how man can corrupt a wonderfull thing.
Just look around you, there plenty of proof of that all around.

~ Mark

 

[Red Dawn]

Do you think MAN thought this up ?

Yep just like he thought up religion!

 

[conjur]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Do you think MAN thought this up ?

Yep just like he thought up religion!

WinnAr!

 

[Rob9874]

Originally posted by: ausm
Isn't this country about freedom...Yeah right...that's why goverment is constantly enforcing no smoking laws without giving a fvck whether or not it is violating the civil liberties of people who do smoke.

Give me a break, dude. Don't get me started on no smoking laws. I'm hoping every state adopts no smoking laws very soon. My city just did, and I couldn't be happier. The rights of the non-smoker outweight the rights of the smoker, because the smoker infringes on the non-smoker. No one is saying that you can't smoke in designated areas, just not public areas where non-smokers go. If I wanted to stand on my table and scream at the top of my lungs, I would be asked to leave the restaurant because I'm disturbing others. Why should smoking be any different?

 

[HardwareAddicted]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Do you think MAN thought this up ?

Yep just like he thought up religion!

LOL .... yeah right.

I don't really care how you believe things.... knock yourself out.

But don't crap on people that have ACTUALLY read about it and proved it for themselves.

Just because you don't have the balls to do the same gives you no right to claim it's wrong.

Again, I'm not really fanitical about it, I don't walk on water, but I do tire of people who put things down they don't understand.

I would have more respect for anyone who at least tries to study and learn... but not namecallers and flamers.... I have no time for them really.

~ Mark

 

[Encryptic]

Originally posted by: conjur

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Do you think MAN thought this up ?

Yep just like he thought up religion!

WinnAr!

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: HardwareAddicted

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Do you think MAN thought this up ?

Yep just like he thought up religion!

LOL .... yeah right.

I don't really how you believe things.... knock yourself out.

But don't crap on people that have ACTUALLY read about it and proved it for themselves.

Just because you don't have the balls to do the same gives you no right to claim it's wrong.

Again, I'm not really fanitical about it, I don't walk on water, but I do tire of people who put things down they don't understand.

I would have more respect for anyone who at least tries to study and learn... but not namecallers and flamers.... I have no time for them really.

~ Mark

Yeah practice what you preach. Like most Americans as a youth I was force fee religion and I came to the conclusion that it was rubbish and intrusive (kind of like our government of today) Believe in it if you want but don't expect us to believe or respect it.

 

[Jzero]

But don't crap on people that have ACTUALLY read about it and proved it for themselves.

Did I read that right?

 

[Netopia]

But you fail to understand he is overstepping his bounds with that statement he made.

"I believe marriage is between a man and a woman, and I think we ought to codify that one way or another..."

How is the man overstepping his bounds? Let us assume for a moment that he simply had an intrinsic belief that it was wrong; would you be less up in arms because he just "felt" that way rather than having a religious basis for his position?

Separation of Church and State ring a bell?

Yeah, it says that Congress (U.S. FEDERAL CONGRESS) won't establish a religion or prohibit others from practicing what they already have. How does that say that religion won't carry weight in our Government. Why not look at what's obvious in our history... I live outside Washington DC... you wouldn't believe how many federal monuments, buildings and offices their are with religious symbols, quotes, and representations in our nation's capitol. These are NOT new. If the men who wrote the and signed the Consitution didn't want there to be any mixing of religion into politics then please explain why all of this stuff exists and has existed right from the start of the country. The obvious answer is that the current view of the first amendment WAS NOT what they meant when they radified it!

BTW, please quote properly. You are mixing quotes from various people in your replies.

Sorry... I guess I just go down the page from post to post and quote/answer chonologically. I'll try to keep an eye on it for clarities sake. Thanks for pointing it out.

Would you disown one of those kids if they grew up to be gay?

No, why would I? Homosexuality isn't listed in the Bible as some sin with a worse punishment than some other. If my kid had a drinking problem, I'd do my best to get him/her help. If they were drug addicted, the same thing. Of course, in both of those cases there comes a point where "helping" becomes enabling, but not having been through that I've no idea where that line is drawn. BTW... although something in me would be more repulsed if they were engaging in homosexual acts (yes, including a daughter), I would view it as really being not much different than if they were engaging in heterosexual fornication.

Persnallly,if beliving in God means I'm expected to turn my face away from people that I spent years of my life rearing,caring for and loving well...

Fortunately for you, you've never been asked to do so by the teachings of the Bible... start believing anytime.

I still think the "marriage amendment" would be a direct contradiction to Amendment X, just had to interject.

That might be the only point which I would consider for not having a federal law. Unfortunatly, unless they are going to get rid of all of the other laws which are unconstitutional and ignore the Tenth Amendment, I'm not sure that I'm not willing to let them pass ONE for a more conservative agenda. But if I was against it, it would be your reason that pushed me that way.

only reason these people are so upset is they are under the delusion that gay rubs off.

Oh good... another mind reader who "KNOWS" what everyone else's motives are. Hmmm... on the other hand you are also stereotyping.... aren't people who do that usually called BIGOTS?

Joe

PS conjur, did the horizontal rules make it any better? Let me know... I just don't want to post ten different post, but I will if it is confusing otherwise.

 

[Ausm]

Originally posted by: conjur

Originally posted by: ausm

Originally posted by: conjur
Marriage is actually a legal institution. That's why it requires a court to dissolve it (divorce).

I see no reason why same-sex marriages shouldn't be treated the same as non-same-sex. I mean...isn't this country about freedom? About freedom from discrimination? From persecution?

Isn't this country about freedom...Yeah right...that's why goverment is constantly enforcing no smoking laws without giving a fvck whether or not it is violating the civil liberties of people who do smoke.

Persecution?!?!?! Try being a smoker once...then you will know what it is like to have less rights thens an Aids infected Homeless non-tax paying Hatian refugee.

Ausm

Ok using your devine logic, what if the goverment decided to ban condescending assholes like yourself because you were deemed a threat to society, would you feel persecuted then?

OR

What if the goverment decides to ban Pocket pool....Your favorite sport because they determined it was harmful to your health because it chaffs your nuts?

DEAL WITH IT

Ausm

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: Netopia

But you fail to understand he is overstepping his bounds with that statement he made.

"I believe marriage is between a man and a woman, and I think we ought to codify that one way or another..."

How is the man overstepping his bounds? Let us assume for a moment that he simply had an intrinsic belief that it was wrong; would you be less up in arms because he just "felt" that way rather than having a religious basis for his position?

Separation of Church and State ring a bell?

Yeah, it says that Congress (U.S. FEDERAL CONGRESS) won't establish a religion or prohibit others from practicing what they already have. How does that say that religion won't carry weight in our Government. Why not look at what's obvious in our history... I live outside Washington DC... you wouldn't believe how many federal monuments, buildings and offices their are with religious symbols, quotes, and representations in our nation's capitol. These are NOT new. If the men who wrote the and signed the Consitution didn't want there to be any mixing of religion into politics then please explain why all of this stuff exists and has existed right from the start of the country. The obvious answer is that the current view of the first amendment WAS NOT what they meant when they radified it!

BTW, please quote properly. You are mixing quotes from various people in your replies.

Sorry... I guess I just go down the page from post to post and quote/answer chonologically. I'll try to keep an eye on it for clarities sake. Thanks for pointing it out.

Would you disown one of those kids if they grew up to be gay?

No, why would I? Homosexuality isn't listed in the Bible as some sin with a worse punishment than some other. If my kid had a drinking problem, I'd do my best to get him/her help. If they were drug addicted, the same thing. Of course, in both of those cases there comes a point where "helping" becomes enabling, but not having been through that I've no idea where that line is drawn. BTW... although something in me would be more repulsed if they were engaging in homosexual acts (yes, including a daughter), I would view it as really being not much different than if they were engaging in heterosexual fornication.

Persnallly,if beliving in God means I'm expected to turn my face away from people that I spent years of my life rearing,caring for and loving well...

Fortunately for you, you've never been asked to do so by the teachings of the Bible... start believing anytime.

I still think the "marriage amendment" would be a direct contradiction to Amendment X, just had to interject.

That might be the only point which I would consider for not having a federal law. Unfortunatly, unless they are going to get rid of all of the other laws which are unconstitutional and ignore the Tenth Amendment, I'm not sure that I'm not willing to let them pass ONE for a more conservative agenda. But if I was against it, it would be your reason that pushed me that way.

only reason these people are so upset is they are under the delusion that gay rubs off.

Oh good... another mind reader who "KNOWS" what everyone else's motives are. Hmmm... on the other hand you are also stereotyping.... aren't people who do that usually called BIGOTS?

Joe

PS conjur, did the horizontal rules make it any better? Let me know... I just don't want to post ten different post, but I will if it is confusing otherwise.

Why are Fundies so worried about what others do?

 

[Netopia]

HardwareAddicted makes a good point though... it is TOTAL hipocrisy for those who aren't Christians to stand in a Church and say vows just so that they have a "pretty" wedding and nice photos when they in fact don't believe in any of it. I've known people who have gotten HIGHLY PO'ed when they've been told by a Preacher that he wouldn't marry them unless they were both believers and were willing to go to premarriage counselling.... one of them is one of my longest (35+ years) and best friends.

He said that guy had no right to "judge" him or to determine whether or not he and his fiancee were ready for marriage. I tried to explain to him that the Minister felt that he was performing a sacred ceremony and had an obligation to not enter into it lightly... that he was doing his best to be sure that the marriage was starting on solid ground... and that since it was a religious ceremony he felt it appropriate that the people involved REALLY believed all of the things they were saying. He ended up paying some other minister he'd never met to do the wedding for $100 bucks or something... it really was a shame though... he never got what the minister was trying to do.

Joe

 

[Red Dawn]

he never got what the minister was trying to do

Bribe him into conversion? BTW, a Minister is allowed by Law (licensed) to perform a wedding so he is jus the same as a JOTP in that sense.

 

[Netopia]

Why are Fundies so worried about what others do?

Because people together make a society and I care about WHERE that society is going. BTW, I don't feel that we need to be invading people's bedrooms to see if their private relations measure up to some sort of standard. I believe that is LITERALLY their private life and society shouldn't be prying into it. OTOH, that which is done/practiced/appoved of in the open is, I think, open to public debate and legislation.

What about Blue Laws... why aren't you guys all up in arm about them? They've been around forever!

Joe