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Bush and Oil Pals knowingly cheat Native Americans

OT - Question how can a true fiscal conservative support taxing a group of successful people ? I am amazed at the out cry and eagerness of GOP members when it comes to taxing Indian casinos in CA just because they are successful and self-sustaining. I thought Arnold was not going to raise taxes and look for real ways to save money. Instead he is just resorting to the same of political BS of finding a new victim to blame and to leech from until there is nothing left because of CA's government spending woes.

There is also a problem in that a true fiscal conservative also believes in no taxation without representation. If we tax Indians in CA that means that we also must provide them with representation in government and you guessed it government aide and support. To tax someone and not provide them proper representation and government support is akin to tyranny. Don't we want these people to be independent and self supporting ?
 
Pathetic.

Everyone involved in this scam needs to spend some quality time in the ass slammer. From the politicians that stood idly by and ignored reports to those stuffing the paper shredders.

A couple hundred billion in reperations would also be in order to all those victimized.

As for the companies. Size their assets, as well as all those people responsible, and use it to pay for the reperations.

Will it happen? No.
 
This could be one of the worst written articles I have ever seen!

I am still trying to figure out how Bush is tied into this. Does he have special meetings to try and rip off some Indians in New Mexico?

Without better evidence which this site reportedly thinks it has. I would have to look at their case as taking 1 problem and using another problem to get it solved.

It seems some trust fund was raided so to get that money back they are going to sue over pipeline royalty payments?

btw who negotiates the royalty payments? Indians or Govt? I couldnt tell from the story.

 
Originally posted by: Genx87
This could be one of the worst written articles I have ever seen!

I am still trying to figure out how Bush is tied into this. Does he have special meetings to try and rip off some Indians in New Mexico?

Without better evidence which this site reportedly thinks it has. I would have to look at their case as taking 1 problem and using another problem to get it solved.

It seems some trust fund was raided so to get that money back they are going to sue over pipeline royalty payments?

btw who negotiates the royalty payments? Indians or Govt? I couldnt tell from the story.
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Three words that don't fit into the vocabulary of some people.

Oversight

Responsibility

Accountability

These things are supposed to exist in an administration. Ultimately responsibility rests not only with those who are wrong doing but also those looking the other way when its their responsibility to look after these people who are doing wrong.

Regardless of how some people want to twist this into something its not there is one incontrovertible fact.

Ignorance is not a defense.

Unless you are suggesting that those in power be immune to law.

*note that those in power are already immune to many laws, usually granted to themselves, both at the executive and other levels of government both state and federal.
 
This saddens me as most of my family is from the Pine Ridge reservation. It's really bad there, and there is no oppurtunity except to leave your home. I know that to alot of you guys it's OK to leave home, as you all do it to go to college. But in the Indian culture it's a less accepted mode of living. We don't want to have to live by your ways, we wish to live by ours, and there simply isn't enough room or capital to make that kind of investment. So most sit there in poverty, and quietly teach history to each other in a differant way. Those of you who think you know your American Indian history, I have a little interjection to make. Our history is thousands of years old, it didn't miracuously start in 1492 like you think it did. We watch, wait, and suffer while your culture destroys everything sacred to us. And your boy Bush is making it even harder to try and live the way we want. I am diminished by everyone of my brothers that starves on reservations, or is converted to this Xtian cult, or is forced to leave the reservation to feed his family properly.


shii shi keyah

Oh and if it wasn't for the Navajo's willingness to help, the Pacific part of WW2 wouldn't have gone as well.
 
Originally posted by: judasmachine
This saddens me as most of my family is from the Pine Ridge reservation. It's really bad there, and there is no oppurtunity except to leave your home. I know that to alot of you guys it's OK to leave home, as you all do it to go to college. But in the Indian culture it's a less accepted mode of living. We don't want to have to live by your ways, we wish to live by ours, and there simply isn't enough room or capital to make that kind of investment. So most sit there in poverty, and quietly teach history to each other in a differant way. Those of you who think you know your American Indian history, I have a little interjection to make. Our history is thousands of years old, it didn't miracuously start in 1492 like you think it did. We watch, wait, and suffer while your culture destroys everything sacred to us. And your boy Bush is making it even harder to try and live the way we want. I am diminished by everyone of my brothers that starves on reservations, or is converted to this Xtian cult, or is forced to leave the reservation to feed his family properly.


shii shi keyah

Oh and if it wasn't for the Navajo's willingness to help, the Pacific part of WW2 wouldn't have gone as well.
Click to expand...

🙁
 
An investigation by SmartMoney.com has found that officials in the Bush administration had detailed knowledge of fraudulent practices that allowed energy companies to cheat impoverished Native American Indians out of vast sums over dozens of years.
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Wow, Bush has been president for dozens of years? Whoa! Where am I? Wait, what year is this?
 
These things are supposed to exist in an administration. Ultimately responsibility rests not only with those who are wrong doing but also those looking the other way when its their responsibility to look after these people who are doing wrong.
Click to expand...

Does the administration directly conytrol the reservation and the price setting on the royalty payments?
If they do the story didnt lay that out very well.

Regardless of how some people want to twist this into something its not there is one incontrovertible fact.

Ignorance is not a defense.
Click to expand...

What fact? Does the administration run this program? If you can point me to some information that shows it does then maybe we can have an intelligent conversation about this. Currently the story linked lays down a bunch of conjecture with little evidence. They cant even make a clean cut tie to the administration.

Unless you are suggesting that those in power be immune to law.
Click to expand...

Depends on a few things.

A. Are the people who are in the position of power you refer to accountable for this? Do they run it, if so, what role do they play?
B. Were any laws broken?

*note that those in power are already immune to many laws, usually granted to themselves, both at the executive and other levels of government both state and federal.
Click to expand...

If this is against the law then they wont be immune to the law.

But I think we or at least I need a couple of questions answered.

A. Who negotiates the royalty payments for the Indians?
B. How is the Bush administration tied to this?

The article throws out some bait but nothing really connects.

 
Originally posted by: bamacre
An investigation by SmartMoney.com has found that officials in the Bush administration had detailed knowledge of fraudulent practices that allowed energy companies to cheat impoverished Native American Indians out of vast sums over dozens of years.
Click to expand...

Wow, Bush has been president for dozens of years? Whoa! Where am I? Wait, what year is this?
Click to expand...

No, but he has had the same corrupt buddies for dozens of years.
 
Originally posted by: Genx87
These things are supposed to exist in an administration. Ultimately responsibility rests not only with those who are wrong doing but also those looking the other way when its their responsibility to look after these people who are doing wrong.
Click to expand...

Does the administration directly conytrol the reservation and the price setting on the royalty payments?
If they do the story didnt lay that out very well.

They don't need to control it directly to be held accountable. The article suggests those involved at the top are appointed to those posts by Bush and Co. Is this not true?

Regardless of how some people want to twist this into something its not there is one incontrovertible fact.

Ignorance is not a defense.
Click to expand...

What fact? Does the administration run this program? If you can point me to some information that shows it does then maybe we can have an intelligent conversation about this. Currently the story linked lays down a bunch of conjecture with little evidence. They cant even make a clean cut tie to the administration.

See above.

p.s. What kind of assinine comment are you going to come up with next?

Unless you are suggesting that those in power be immune to law.
Click to expand...

Depends on a few things.

A. Are the people who are in the position of power you refer to accountable for this? Do they run it, if so, what role do they play?
B. Were any laws broken?

Depends? Since when does accountability depend when you appoint people to posts that are then abused. Does accountability come to a dead stop only when you, be that anyone, has a finger pointed your way and get called on it "You sir put this scumbag in charge!"

*note that those in power are already immune to many laws, usually granted to themselves, both at the executive and other levels of government both state and federal.
Click to expand...

If this is against the law then they wont be immune to the law.

But I think we or at least I need a couple of questions answered.

A. Who negotiates the royalty payments for the Indians?
B. How is the Bush administration tied to this?

The article throws out some bait but nothing really connects.

What do you mean by "if this is against the law..."? You have got to be kidding me.

For your 1st point that is looking for a scapegoat. Here's a hint. Stop looking for one. All of these people named are responsible and then some. Not just a handful of people who will most likely get a convenient finger pointed at by the administration. As to your second point see my first comment.
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See my bolded edits.
 
Originally posted by: Aelius
They don't need to control it directly to be held accountable. The article suggests those involved at the top are appointed to those posts by Bush and Co. Is this not true?
Click to expand...
Article states:

The Department of the Interior is the subject of a $100 billion class-action suit brought by the allegedly injured parties. Cobell v. Norton, originally filed in 1996 when Bruce Babbitt was Interior Secretary (current secretary Gail Norton is the defendant now), is the largest class-action lawsuit in U.S. history in dollar terms.

1) Bruce Babbitt (D):

Following a distinguished career as governor of Arizona, Babbitt became the nation's environmental scorekeeper upon his appointment to Secretary of the Interior by President Clinton in 1993. During his tenure as Interior Secretary he drafted plans to restore the Florida Everglades; helped enact the massive California Desert Protection Act; and negotiated the largest land swap in the history of the lower 48 states in order to protect the new Grand-Staircase monument and other parks in Utah.

Determined not to have the new Bush administration create a legacy of pollution and abandonment, Babbitt speaks to audiences about the pressing environmental challenges facing America in the 21st century.

2) Gail Norton (R):

A former protégé of James Watt, Mr. Reagan's first interior secretary, Ms. Norton has long been an outspoken advocate of granting states, localities and even private corporations a greater voice in environmental decisions that under Democratic leadership have been mostly the preserve of the federal government.

3) Kevin Gover (D):

Kevin Gover, Esq., is the former Assistant Secretary for Indian Affairs in the U.S. Department of the Interior. Gover was nominated by President Clinton on October 9, 1997, confirmed by the U.S. Senate November 9, 1997, and took the oath of Office as on November 12, 1997. After his term ended in 2000, Gover joined Steptoe and Johnson LLP as a partner and as a group leader of its American Indian Practice.

4) Special Master Alan Balaran:

On February 22, 1999, this Court adjudged Interior Secretary Bruce Babbitt, Treasury Secretary Robert Rubin, and Interior Assistant Secretary for Indian Affairs Kevin Gover to be in civil contempt of the Court?s discovery orders of November 27, 1996 and May 4, 1998. Two days later, in accordance with Rule 53 of the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure and with the consent of both parties, this Court appointed Alan Balaran to serve as a special master in this litigation. The order of appointment specified that Special Master Balaran ?shall be compensated at the prevailing market rate for his services and shall be reimbursed for all expenses incurred in connection with the appointment. The defendants shall bear these costs.? Order dated February 24, 1999, at 1.

Also...

The Interior Department resisted Balaran's oversight, saying his report did not show that unauthorized access presented an imminent danger to the integrity of the system. Balaran eventually resigned after Interior officials accused him of bias in the case.

--

So the case was launched during President Clinton's watch and even led to the resignation of what looks like a rather tough federal judge who had a knack for drilling through unpopular cases in search of the truth - but the blame belongs with Bush and his Oil Pals. Sure.

Certainly the fact that almost all politicians are dirty and the other fact that not quite everything a government does ends up on the President's desk (or read if it does) matters. Y'all got some president bashin' to do!
 
They don't need to control it directly to be held accountable. The article suggests those involved at the top are appointed to those posts by Bush and Co. Is this not true?
Click to expand...

Doesnt appear so, see the post after yours. But i disagree that because a person who is appointed may have ran a scam means the people directly above them should be held accountable. They may be responsible for appointing the person but the blame lays on the person doing the deeds.

And "suggesting" is the same as "guessing", "hoping", and most important of all, "not really knowing". Get some hard facts not conjecture and get back to us.

See above.

p.s. What kind of assinine comment are you going to come up with next?
Click to expand...

Assinine because I ask where the beef is? You people crack me up. What next, you tell me that Santa Clause is real and steals people cookies? Proof? Who needs proof, cookies left out are gone on Christmas day!

What a pointless stance.

Depends? Since when does accountability depend when you appoint people to posts that are then abused. Does accountability come to a dead stop only when you, be that anyone, has a finger pointed your way and get called on it "You sir put this scumbag in charge!"
Click to expand...

Well apparently since the original complaint was filed under Clintons watch against Clintons appointee. I think you can agree with me it really does depend now doesnt it?

What do you mean by "if this is against the law..."? You have got to be kidding me.
Click to expand...

Well since you cant seem to answer my questions on who sets the royalty payment price and how Bush is tied to this. I think it is safe the question whether this is against the law.

For your 1st point that is looking for a scapegoat. Here's a hint. Stop looking for one. All of these people named are responsible and then some. Not just a handful of people who will most likely get a convenient finger pointed at by the administration. As to your second point see my first comment.
Click to expand...

The first question is asking a vital question on the case. If the Indians negotiate their own price. Then how can anybody in the administration be at fault? This is a major point in the case. For labeling the Bush administration guilty I would have assumed you could at least answer this one question.

I have to admit when you responded I was expecting you to actually answer my questions and address these issues in the case. I see you are falling back on the tried and tested line of "it has to be Bush administrations fault". I suggest trying to really answer the two questions instead of brushing them off and see if the case has merit.

The funny part is we can see the 2nd question obviously has been answered by yllus. And the Bush administration has little to do with this except inheritance from the Clinton administration. Now since half the story is destroyed. Maybe you can resurrect it and answer the 1st question so we can get an idea if Clintons administration broke any laws.

Thank you,
 
Please stop holding Bush responsible for his responsibilities as head of the executive branch. Why are you picking on him as if he's in charge?
 
The truth is that it's continuing practice. From George Washington to George W. Bush. One of the worst, one the Indians rightfully villefy is Andrew Jackson. What an SOB he was. But yes W is responsible for not stopping the practice. Everyday is a new chance, and he blows it off everyday.
 
Originally posted by: judasmachine
This saddens me as most of my family is from the Pine Ridge reservation. It's really bad there, and there is no oppurtunity except to leave your home. I know that to alot of you guys it's OK to leave home, as you all do it to go to college. But in the Indian culture it's a less accepted mode of living. We don't want to have to live by your ways, we wish to live by ours, and there simply isn't enough room or capital to make that kind of investment. So most sit there in poverty, and quietly teach history to each other in a differant way. Those of you who think you know your American Indian history, I have a little interjection to make. Our history is thousands of years old, it didn't miracuously start in 1492 like you think it did. We watch, wait, and suffer while your culture destroys everything sacred to us. And your boy Bush is making it even harder to try and live the way we want. I am diminished by everyone of my brothers that starves on reservations, or is converted to this Xtian cult, or is forced to leave the reservation to feed his family properly.


shii shi keyah

Oh and if it wasn't for the Navajo's willingness to help, the Pacific part of WW2 wouldn't have gone as well.
Click to expand...

I've been on every reservation in the Dakotas & my parents lived on one for ~5 years, my mother was an employee of the tribe...

The OP seems to want to lay the blame on the current administration, and I feel that's very short sighted & self serving, the dominant culture in North America needs to take a shared responsibility in the centuries long bad faith shown to the native populations.
 
Originally posted by: Pliablemoose
Originally posted by: judasmachine
This saddens me as most of my family is from the Pine Ridge reservation. It's really bad there, and there is no oppurtunity except to leave your home. I know that to alot of you guys it's OK to leave home, as you all do it to go to college. But in the Indian culture it's a less accepted mode of living. We don't want to have to live by your ways, we wish to live by ours, and there simply isn't enough room or capital to make that kind of investment. So most sit there in poverty, and quietly teach history to each other in a differant way. Those of you who think you know your American Indian history, I have a little interjection to make. Our history is thousands of years old, it didn't miracuously start in 1492 like you think it did. We watch, wait, and suffer while your culture destroys everything sacred to us. And your boy Bush is making it even harder to try and live the way we want. I am diminished by everyone of my brothers that starves on reservations, or is converted to this Xtian cult, or is forced to leave the reservation to feed his family properly.


shii shi keyah

Oh and if it wasn't for the Navajo's willingness to help, the Pacific part of WW2 wouldn't have gone as well.
Click to expand...

I've been on every reservation in the Dakotas & my parents lived on one for ~5 years, my mother was an employee of the tribe...

The OP seems to want to lay the blame on the current administration, and I feel that's very short sighted & self serving, the dominant culture in North America needs to take a shared responsibility in the centuries long bad faith shown to the native populations.
Click to expand...

i agree, but i never said that bush is the reason why the natives live on reservations

i was just pointing out one injustice currently going on
 
Interesting Article. It seems to me, when a contract has been violated that the Indian nations should have the right to take back their lands. This should be threatened. Just close down all the power plants and hold the companies hostage. I would be for doing this in the courts, but sometimes it calls for drastic action. Doesnt take much sabotage to put Power Plants out of action.
 
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