A Democrat can't better than a Republican regardless of the medals and other evidence. Therefore all data must be a sham.
LunarRay
Diamond Member
- Mar 2, 2003
- 9,993
- 1
- 76
You don't see the issue... At least, I don't think you do.
Ya gotta look at the time frame of Vietnam... and in the 67 - 72 era especially... A time of great divide.
The folks who ran away or got some valid but less than 'patriotic' means of avoiding Vietnam versus the folks who went. No one or just a few would want to be there ... it was the lowest of moral wars or conflicts ever. It was the insanity of battle.. fighting civilians armed like the NVA.. North's Army.. who had kids (just like in Iraq) blow up amonst our guys. You just can't tell who is the Cong and who is the folks we were there to ... what ever we were there to do... ETC., and ETC. You conger up insanity and it was there somewhere..
BUT, the point is the era and the facts.. Did someone go or Did they avoid going... Serving in the National Guard unit that was not going to be called up to go over there (why Alabama) is just another means to avoid going. The hippy and the preppy... hehehe what the heck was the difference... well the hippy didn't support the war and didn't go while the preppy (for the most part) was focused on not going and were divided over supporting it.. See Kent State...
Now you have folks like me who look at folks like Clinton and Bush and all the rest who have one little blotch on their character.. as I see it.. and then I see Kerry and Kerrey of Nebraska.. who they started on when he was named as a potential candidate.. remember that... the MOH fellow (1 of 12 from the Navy in the Vietnam era) I think 12... Bush has to maintain his swing voter and many of them is us.. the younger folks are not too concerned with what happened 35 or 40 years ago.. but, I am.. and always will be.. Maybe because Bobby Kennedy was killed in '68 and I think he'd have won and ended that farce. Maybe because I resented folks who didn't go, entering Grad school way ahead of me and advancing while I was doing what I thought was the thing to do... Or maybe it was because I grew up in Brooklyn and think one can't talk the talk if they can't walk the walk!
You see when it comes to two candidates both of whom had the Vietnam issue in their history the one who went has a special place in my heart... the one who avoided going well.... they are walking on the streets paved by those who did go..
Medals are the result of being in the wrong place at the right time and surviving or dying while someone notices what you did. No one picks the place intending to earn a medal. It just happens.. to survive you kill the enemy. You don't think.. you react. Sure many did deeds that went unnoticed and many did deeds that earned them medals..
Being in Vietnam in that era under those conditions is the issue. If you don't care about that then fine.. Separate the two candidates on some other criteria but, don't step on the toes you don't see thinking they are only Kerry's.
Invalid comparison.
Moore's movie is biased, yes. But it's based in fact. Any attempts to debunk have been met with rebuttals right back at them.
The Swiftboat Veterans are just pure liars. Plain and simple. That's been proven.
I'm not saying it makes him a better soldier. It makes him more qulaified to send troops in to a war zone. Are you saying he hasn't been in a war zone? By experience I mean, he's walked the talk. Bush OTOH is simply out to make money for himself and the Saudis. HE has never seen a lick of action and it there is evidence he didn't even serve the guard honorably. This makes him emiinently UNqualified to commit troops to action.
Moore's movie is complete trash, with the possible exception of the few minutes where he talks about the Patriot Act. He's just as bad as the Swiftboat Veterans.
It's only complete trash to the Bush-God fanbois.
Everyone else sees it for what it is. A one-sided view, based in fact, of the Bush administration. Heck, there's plenty of footage of Bush/Rumsfeld making idiots of themselves w/o needing Moore's help. And a good portion of the film is dealing with Mrs. Lipscomb and her son who was killed in Iraq.
I have seen it.
No, its a 1 sided view that twists the truth so far that the statements made are in fact nearly polar opposites of what they were in real life. I guess you can say it is "based" on fact, in that it shows something that is remotely connected to the truth. If you honestly believe that film, or need/use it to justify your dislike for Bush, I suggest you read up on this. Not every point there is valid, but many of them are.
GG is completely wrong about F/911. It's Bush and Cheney and the rest of the crazies currently in power in their own words!
It's all documented stuff! Which facts do you dispute exactly? It's impossible for you to do so. Sure, you can assassinate Moore's character but you can't dispute documented fact. Yes, some of the facts are presented in a partisan fashion, but that does not invalidate them as facts.
For those who have not seen it, F/911 is truly shocking. I could only sit there and shake my head the entire time. We are living a nightmare.
It's all documented stuff! Which facts do you dispute exactly? It's impossible for you to do so. Sure, you can assassinate Moore's character but you can't dispute documented fact. Yes, some of the facts are presented in a partisan fashion, but that does not invalidate them as facts.
For those who have not seen it, F/911 is truly shocking. I could only sit there and shake my head the entire time. We are living a nightmare.
cKGunslinger
Lifer
- Nov 29, 1999
- 16,408
- 57
- 91
Well, the president is largely responsible for the federal budget, which includes such things as NASA's Mars expeditions, education, law-enforcement, agriculture, etc. So you are saying that only a former Astronaut/Teacher/Cop/Farmer would be a good president?
Our government is not stupid. We are well aware that no one can "do it all" or be a subject-matter expert in *every* field That's why the president has a large cabinet with many branches. These are his "advisors." Then we have a Congress to pass laws. And a Judicial system to interpret and enforce those laws. See how this all works? The fate of the entire nation does not rest on the whims of a single person, no matter what rabid [incumbent president]-haters want you to beleive.
cKGunslinger
Lifer
- Nov 29, 1999
- 16,408
- 57
- 91
I think the point is, even if 100% of everything presented as FACT is true, that doesn't mean that the movie can't be considered trash. I learned a bit from the movie, but didn't get the whole "huge-conspiracy-Bush-family-is-evil" image MM wanted me too, no matter how hard he tried to force it on me.
I could just as easily find a shot of Kerry holding a gun (he's a hunter) and a shot of some dead kittens. Both of these are FACTS, right? Now I could show the dead kittens, then show Kerry, then show the kittens again, then some littel kids crying, then show Kerry. All the time, I could be playing the Imperial March from Star Wars in the background, while I narrated things like "We don't know if Kerry actually HATES cute, furry kittens or if they frighten him, but we do know that these kittens are dead and Kerry has a gun. Hmm..." That would be just as "valid" and "truthful" as 75% of anything MM "documented."
I think it is a very revelant point. Perhaps if Bush or Chenny had ever personally been shot at or bombed they might not have been so quick to start bombing and sending other people children into harm's way.
LOL. And you know what else is funny. The pubs are running around talking about flip flopping and all that nonsense, but get this. One of the supporters of that Oneill book, was one who put Kerry up for a purple heart and wrote Kerrry's bravery was unsurpassed. Now this same guy says he remembers it differently now. Huh? I am still laughing at how Matthews just killed Oneill on his show last week. It was hilarious.
BeauJangles
Lifer
- Aug 26, 2001
- 13,941
- 1
- 0
My thoughts exactly.
And Kerry volunteered to go to Vietnam. I think that speaks a great deal for his character.
cKGunslinger
Lifer
- Nov 29, 1999
- 16,408
- 57
- 91
Umm.. what are you wanting from "us"? Yes, Kerry has a much more impressive military history than Bush, I have no problem admitting that. I just don't think that automatically qualifies him as a better president. Why do the "Kerry-Cthulhu fanbois" :roll: think it does? By that logic, should we change the qualifications for being president to only those who are decorated war heroes?
Well, if you're a Bush-God fanboi, which I don't believe you are, it would be nice to at least admit defeat. All of this posturing and ranting and raving about a man who volunteered and was injured in combat when one of their candidates got his daddy's help to avoid combat and jumped ahead of hundreds of others in line for the TX Air National Guard and the other candidate receiving five deferrments is the definition of hypocritical.
cKGunslinger
Lifer
- Nov 29, 1999
- 16,408
- 57
- 91
And if Edwards studied astrophysics, he might be better qualified to allocate funds for NASA. And if Kerry was a elementary school teacher, he might be better qualified to make decisions regarding our educational system. And if either of them had made several drug busts, they would be better qualified to fund the DEA. What's your point? If just serving in Vietnam automatically makes Kerry a better president, why aren't more vets running?
And can we please stop the "Oh, won't somebeody please think of the children" whining here? Little 12-year-olds are not, to my knowledge, being rounded up in the streets and sent off to die in Iraq. Our miliitary is comprised strictly of volunteers who have received full-disclosure on the possibility of being sent into life-threatening situations, based upon the decisions of the Commander In Chief and his staff. Our military is not made up of victims, no matter what you want to believe. Some of us actually respect and honor our soldiers for their actions and commitment to protecting the rest of us, instead of portraying them as defenseless children.
cKGunslinger
Lifer
- Nov 29, 1999
- 16,408
- 57
- 91
Like I said, yes, Bush's military career is easily made shallow by Kerry's. So? That's but a small part of what makes a president. Why does the "other side" have just as many "fanbois" who hold Kerry up as the pinnacle of human perfection? Isn't that just as hypocritical? Believing that any single person in infallible and 100% perfect for the position of President in rediculous, no matter which "side" you are on.
Sure, you can think that one is better qualified than the other, and debate those points, but some of you guys are just fanatical. You talk about fanbois, but you sometimes present yourself as the exact equivalent on the other side. I bet if I listen hard enough, I could probably hear you squeals in glee as you type "Bush-God." And I bet dmcowen674 blows his wad everytime he types "neocon." (which is mighty impressive, as he must type that 20-30 times per day, no matter the topic at hand.)
So try not to put yourself on too high a podium, as it makes you an easy target. Stay down here with the rest of us and participate in some rational discussions, instead.
So the NFL comparison bombs, try something else right? Sorry, IMO, still quite invalid. Why? If you were a parent of a casualty of this war, you'd know that answer intuitively. It would come to you every day for the rest of your life. Go ahead, belittle their pain, it makes you appear smaller and more ridiculous.
Right, and who has ever said different. Only the lying swiftboat veterans are saying it makes him unfit but we know they all have zero credibility.
And who is saying Kerry is the pinnacle of human perfection? Not I and certainly no one up here. You're just reaching into hyperbole now.
I just don't like BS. I've said it before and I'm saying it again. And, again, I toe no party line. If there were a better and viable candidate than Kerry, I'd be supporting them but, as it stands, Kerry is the best option this country has for the next four years.Sure, you can think that one is better qualified than the other, and debate those points, but some of you guys are just fanatical. You talk about fanbois, but you sometimes present yourself as the exact equivalent on the other side. I bet if I listen hard enough, I could probably hear you squeals in glee as you type "Bush-God." And I bet dmcowen674 blows his wad everytime he types "neocon." (which is mighty impressive, as he must type that 20-30 times per day, no matter the topic at hand.)
So try not to put yourself on too high a podium, as it makes you an easy target. Stay down here with the rest of us and participate in some rational discussions, instead.
cKGunslinger
Lifer
- Nov 29, 1999
- 16,408
- 57
- 91
You know, I keep looking for that clip with Bush and Cheney sitting around, smoking cigars, laughing, and talking about "Boy, the pain those parent feel for their children who died in Iraq is SO hillarious! Where are those pics of the dead soldiers - I want to whack-off to them again," but I can't seem to find it anywhere. You damn liberals keep all the good stuff to yourselves! :roll:
And I thought I was paranoid. Who the FVCK is "belittling their pain?" Me? If that's what you think, then fvck you, asshat! Yes, those who lost a son or daughter in the war have my utmost respect and condolences. No, I realize that doesn't take away thier pain and loss. Nothing will. But their children were not killed in a natural disaster. They were not assassinated by a crazy gunman. They died serving their country. They died in the line of duty. They died in a life-or-death situation that they had full knowledge they were taking the chance of entering. For every parent that lost a child and blames in on "evil neocons," there are dozens more who are PROUD of their children for fighting for what they believe in - this country and it's freedoms.
If you want to believe that sounds like some brainwashed, feel-good propaganda, forced upon us by the "right-wing conservative powers that be," so right ahead. Feel free to live in a little fantasy world where everyone is a victim of "the man." Just don't expect everyone else to support your misguided beliefs. Some of us can think for ourselves and choose not be feel totally helpless in the world. YOU are the one belittling people, by assuming otherwise.
cKGunslinger
Lifer
- Nov 29, 1999
- 16,408
- 57
- 91
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