Bush Administration approved waterboarding in memos

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winnar111

Banned
Mar 10, 2008
2,847
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Originally posted by: GarfieldtheCat
Originally posted by: winnar111
Originally posted by: GarfieldtheCat
Please explain how weatherboarding magically became legal. A simple link to the appropriate law would be fine. We will all be here waiting for your response.

Why do you believe the CIA? They lie all the time. They lied and said they didn't waterboard. Then they lied and said they only waterboarded one person. Then they lied and said they waterboarded a few. See a pattern here?

Quite simple. It was authorized by the President's executive order. Any laws clarifying the legal status of waterboarding were only passed in 2005 or 2006.

Can you read English? It was against the law dating all the way back to 1940. Nothing has changed since then. No new laws were passed.

So you are seriously telling me that the President can ignore the laws of our country? Really? You must have gone to Dick Cheneys high school to believe that.

The reality is that they broke the law, and they know it.

He didn't ignore the law; he merely offered an alternative interpretation of the current law at the time. The International Military Tribunal was a foreign specially convened body for a special purpose that doesn't necessarily bind domestic actions.

More importantly, the technique used was different than what was used in the 1940s.
 

winnar111

Banned
Mar 10, 2008
2,847
0
0
Originally posted by: Arkaign
Originally posted by: winnar111
Originally posted by: GarfieldtheCat

Yes I did. So where is the proof? Because the CIA "made a convincing case" doesn't mean jack shit. They could have lied to them, they could be wrong.

Is that the same thing as the "convincing case" that Bush made when he said he knew Saddam has WMD?

So again, link to proof, otherwise it's BS.

Do you think the CIA actively publishes its daily routine? It would be counteractive to its mission.

We do know, at a minimum, that another 911 hasn't happened.

lol!

Well, a big fucking asteroid or whatever pulverized the shit out of the dinosaurs sometime back. Since I learned about that, I always carry magnetized rocks in my shoes, so that it doesn't happen again. Because we haven't yet been struck by another gifuckinggantic ball of rock from space, I submit that this tactic is succeeding!

^^ Makes about as much sense as your logical fallacy.

Listening to Arkaign rather than George Tenet about the effectiveness of interrogation policy makes a lot of sense, too! :roll:
 

GarfieldtheCat

Diamond Member
Jan 7, 2005
3,708
1
0
Originally posted by: winnar111
Originally posted by: GarfieldtheCat
Originally posted by: winnar111
Originally posted by: GarfieldtheCat
Please explain how weatherboarding magically became legal. A simple link to the appropriate law would be fine. We will all be here waiting for your response.

Why do you believe the CIA? They lie all the time. They lied and said they didn't waterboard. Then they lied and said they only waterboarded one person. Then they lied and said they waterboarded a few. See a pattern here?

Quite simple. It was authorized by the President's executive order. Any laws clarifying the legal status of waterboarding were only passed in 2005 or 2006.

Can you read English? It was against the law dating all the way back to 1940. Nothing has changed since then. No new laws were passed.

So you are seriously telling me that the President can ignore the laws of our country? Really? You must have gone to Dick Cheneys high school to believe that.

The reality is that they broke the law, and they know it.

He didn't ignore the law; he merely offered an alternative interpretation of the current law at the time. The International Military Tribunal was a foreign specially convened body for a special purpose that doesn't necessarily bind domestic actions.

More importantly, the technique used was different than what was used in the 1940s.

Again, you don't understand (or more likely, refuse to understand). Torture (and waterboarding) is *illegal*. The US government convicts its own soldiers and civilians for torture. How you try and say that this happened because of the IMT is just cluelessness. It's a *law*. People don't go to jail for breaking a treay, they go to jail for breaking a *law*.

By your idea, I guess a murderer is innocent if he can give an "alternative interpretation" of the law? I didn't think so.

 
Feb 6, 2007
16,432
1
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Originally posted by: winnar111
Originally posted by: Arkaign
Originally posted by: winnar111
Do you think the CIA actively publishes its daily routine? It would be counteractive to its mission.

We do know, at a minimum, that another 911 hasn't happened.

lol!

Well, a big fucking asteroid or whatever pulverized the shit out of the dinosaurs sometime back. Since I learned about that, I always carry magnetized rocks in my shoes, so that it doesn't happen again. Because we haven't yet been struck by another gifuckinggantic ball of rock from space, I submit that this tactic is succeeding!

^^ Makes about as much sense as your logical fallacy.

Listening to Arkaign rather than George Tenet about the effectiveness of interrogation policy makes a lot of sense, too! :roll:

That all depends on whether or not George Tenet wears magnetized rocks in his shoes. If he doesn't, he hates America, and I don't give a damn what he thinks, that pinko commie terrorist.

Then again, if he does wear magnetized rocks in his shoes, he may be legally insane, so best not to trust him then either...
 

Arkaign

Lifer
Oct 27, 2006
20,736
1,379
126
Originally posted by: winnar111
Originally posted by: Arkaign
Originally posted by: winnar111
Originally posted by: GarfieldtheCat

Yes I did. So where is the proof? Because the CIA "made a convincing case" doesn't mean jack shit. They could have lied to them, they could be wrong.

Is that the same thing as the "convincing case" that Bush made when he said he knew Saddam has WMD?

So again, link to proof, otherwise it's BS.

Do you think the CIA actively publishes its daily routine? It would be counteractive to its mission.

We do know, at a minimum, that another 911 hasn't happened.

lol!

Well, a big fucking asteroid or whatever pulverized the shit out of the dinosaurs sometime back. Since I learned about that, I always carry magnetized rocks in my shoes, so that it doesn't happen again. Because we haven't yet been struck by another gifuckinggantic ball of rock from space, I submit that this tactic is succeeding!

^^ Makes about as much sense as your logical fallacy.

Listening to Arkaign rather than George Tenet about the effectiveness of interrogation policy makes a lot of sense, too! :roll:

John McCain doesn't support torture either :)
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,779
6,338
126
Coincidentally, I approve of Waterboarding this Administration. Might be the only way to get some straight answers out of them.
 

winnar111

Banned
Mar 10, 2008
2,847
0
0
Originally posted by: GarfieldtheCat
Originally posted by: winnar111
He didn't ignore the law; he merely offered an alternative interpretation of the current law at the time. The International Military Tribunal was a foreign specially convened body for a special purpose that doesn't necessarily bind domestic actions.

More importantly, the technique used was different than what was used in the 1940s.

Again, you don't understand (or more likely, refuse to understand). Torture (and waterboarding) is *illegal*. The US government convicts its own soldiers and civilians for torture. How you try and say that this happened because of the IMT is just cluelessness. It's a *law*. People don't go to jail for breaking a treay, they go to jail for breaking a *law*.

By your idea, I guess a murderer is innocent if he can give an "alternative interpretation" of the law? I didn't think so.

Where is the law that specifically stated that the scope of the word torture encompassed waterboarding?
 

Arkaign

Lifer
Oct 27, 2006
20,736
1,379
126
Originally posted by: winnar111
Originally posted by: GarfieldtheCat
Originally posted by: winnar111
He didn't ignore the law; he merely offered an alternative interpretation of the current law at the time. The International Military Tribunal was a foreign specially convened body for a special purpose that doesn't necessarily bind domestic actions.

More importantly, the technique used was different than what was used in the 1940s.

Again, you don't understand (or more likely, refuse to understand). Torture (and waterboarding) is *illegal*. The US government convicts its own soldiers and civilians for torture. How you try and say that this happened because of the IMT is just cluelessness. It's a *law*. People don't go to jail for breaking a treay, they go to jail for breaking a *law*.

By your idea, I guess a murderer is innocent if he can give an "alternative interpretation" of the law? I didn't think so.

Where is the law that specifically stated that the scope of the word torture encompassed waterboarding?

Read this in it's entirety :

http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/Inve...ation/story?id=1356870

Circa-2005 CIA Director when asked if waterboarding constituted torture : "I don't know". Well, that's a helluva cavalier attitude to take when your agency is using the technique at the behest of this administration.
 

Harvey

Administrator<br>Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
35,058
70
91
Originally posted by: winnar111

Where is the law that specifically stated that the scope of the word torture encompassed waterboarding?

Here's some info on the legality of waterboarding:

Waterboarding is a form of torture that consists of immobilizing a person on their back with the head inclined downward and pouring water over the face and into the breathing passages. Through forced suffocation and inhalation of water, the subject experiences the process of drowning and is made to believe that death is imminent. In contrast to merely submerging the head face-forward, waterboarding almost immediately elicits the gag reflex. Although waterboarding does not always cause lasting physical damage, it carries the risks of extreme pain, damage to the lungs, brain damage caused by oxygen deprivation, injuries (including broken bones) due to struggling against restraints, psychological injury, and death. The psychological effects on victims of waterboarding can last for years after the procedure.

Waterboarding was used for interrogation at least as early as the Spanish Inquisition to obtain information, coerce confessions, punish, and intimidate. It is considered to be torture by a wide range of authorities, including legal experts, politicians, war veterans, intelligence officials, military judges, and human rights organizations. In 2007 waterboarding led to a political scandal in the United States when the press reported that the CIA had waterboarded extrajudicial prisoners and that the Justice Department had authorized this procedure. The CIA is known to have used waterboarding on at least three Al-Qaida suspects: Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, Abu Zubaydah and Abd al-Rahim al-Nashiri.

Classification as torture

Waterboarding is considered to be torture by a wide range of authorities, including legal experts, politicians, war veterans, intelligence officials, military judges, and human rights organizations. David Miliband, the United Kingdom Foreign Secretary described it as torture on 19 July 2008, and stated "the UK unreservedly condemns the use of torture." Arguments have been put forward that it might not be torture in all cases, or that they are uncertain. The U.S. State Department has recognized that other techniques that involve submersion of the head of the subject during interrogation would qualify as torture.

The United Nations' Report of the Committee Against Torture: Thirty-fifth Session of November 2006, stated that state parties should rescind any interrogation techniques, such as waterboarding, that constitutes torture or cruel, inhuman, or degrading treatment or punishment.
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Legality

International


All nations that are signatory to the United Nations Convention Against Torture have agreed they are subject to the explicit prohibition on torture under any condition. This was affirmed by Saadi v. Italy in which the European Court of Human Rights, on February 28, 2008, upheld the absolute nature of the torture ban by ruling that international law permits no exceptions to it. The treaty states "No exceptional circumstances whatsoever, whether a state of war or a threat of war, internal political instability or any other public emergency, may be invoked as a justification of torture". Additionally, signatories of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights are bound to Article 5, which states, "No one shall be subjected to torture or to cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment". Many signatories of the convention have made specific declarations and reservations regarding the interpretation of the term "torture" and restricted the jurisdiction of its enforcement. However, UN High Commissioner for Human Rights, Louise Arbour, stated on the subject "I would have no problems with describing this practice as falling under the prohibition of torture", and that violators of the UN Convention against Torture should be prosecuted under the principle of universal jurisdiction.

Bent Sørensen, Senior Medical Consultant to the International Rehabilitation Council for Torture Victims and former member of the United Nations Committee against Torture has said:
  • It?s a clear-cut case: Waterboarding can without any reservation be labeled as torture. It fulfils all of the four central criteria that according to the United Nations Convention Against Torture (UNCAT) defines an act of torture. First, when water is forced into your lungs in this fashion, in addition to the pain you are likely to experience an immediate and extreme fear of death. You may even suffer a heart attack from the stress or damage to the lungs and brain from inhalation of water and oxygen deprivation. In other words there is no doubt that waterboarding causes severe physical and/or mental suffering ? one central element in the UNCAT?s definition of torture. In addition the CIA?s waterboarding clearly fulfills the three additional definition criteria stated in the Convention for a deed to be labeled torture, since it is 1) done intentionally, 2) for a specific purpose and 3) by a representative of a state ? in this case the US.
Lt. Gen. Michael D. Maples, the director of the Defense Intelligence Agency, concurred by stating, in a hearing before the Senate Armed Services Committee, that he believes waterboarding violates Common Article 3 of the Geneva Conventions.

In a review of The Dark Side: The Inside Story of How the War on Terror Turned Into a War on American Ideals, by Jane Mayer, The New York Times reported on July 11, 2008, that "Red Cross investigators concluded last year in a secret report that the Central Intelligence Agency?s interrogation methods for high-level Qaeda prisoners constituted torture and could make the Bush administration officials who approved them guilty of war crimes", that the techniques applied to Abu Zubaydah were "categorically" torture, and that Abu Zubaydah had told investigators that, contrary to what had been revealed previously, "he had been waterboarded at least 10 times in a single week and as many as three times in a day".

United States

The United States Supreme Court in Sosa v. Alvarez-Machain, 542 U.S. 692 (2004) said that the Universal Declaration of Human Rights "does not of its own force impose obligations as a matter of international law." However, the United States has a historical record of regarding waterboarding as a war crime, and has prosecuted as war criminals individuals for the use of the practice in the past. In 1947, the United States prosecuted a Japanese military officer, Yukio Asano, for carrying out various acts of torture including kicking, clubbing, burning with cigarettes and using a form of waterboarding on a U.S. civilian during World War II. Yukio Asano received a sentence of 15 years of hard labor. The charges of Violation of the Laws and Customs of War against Asano also included "beating using hands, fists, club; kicking; burning using cigarettes; strapping on a stretcher head downward." In addition, the European Court of Human Rights ruled in February 2008 that local considerations do not negate the absolute torture prohibition under international law.

Following the attacks of September 11, 2001, several memoranda, including the Bybee memo, were written analyzing the legal position and possibilities in the treatment of prisoners. The memos, known today as the "torture memos," advocate enhanced interrogation techniques, while pointing out that refuting the Geneva Conventions would reduce the possibility of prosecution for war crimes. In addition, a new definition of torture was issued. Most actions that fall under the international definition do not fall within this new definition advocated by the U.S.

In its 2005 Country Reports on Human Rights Practices, the U.S. Department of State formally recognized "submersion of the head in water" as torture in its examination of Tunisia's poor human rights record, and critics of waterboarding draw parallels between the two techniques, citing the similar usage of water on the subject.

On September 6, 2006, the U.S. Department of Defense released a revised Army Field Manual entitled Human Intelligence Collector Operations that prohibits the use of waterboarding by U.S. military personnel. The department adopted the manual amid widespread criticism of U.S. handling of prisoners in the War on Terrorism, and prohibits other practices in addition to waterboarding. The revised manual applies only to U.S. military personnel, and as such does not apply to the practices of the CIA.[133] Nevertheless Steven G. Bradbury, acting head of the US Department of Justice (DOJ) Office of Legal Counsel, on February 14, 2008 testified:
  • There has been no determination by the Justice Department that the use of waterboarding, under any circumstances, would be lawful under current law.
In addition, both under the War Crimes Act[135] and international law, violators of the laws of war are criminally liable under the command responsibility, and they could still be prosecuted for war crimes. Commenting on the so-called "torture memoranda" Scott Horton pointed out
  • the possibility that the authors of these memoranda counseled the use of lethal and unlawful techniques, and therefore face criminal culpability themselves. That, after all, is the teaching of United States v. Altstötter, the Nuremberg case brought against German Justice Department lawyers whose memoranda crafted the basis for implementation of the infamous ?Night and Fog Decree.?
Michael Mukasey's refusal to investigate and prosecute anyone that relied on these legal opinions led Jordan Paust of the University of Houston Law Center to write an article for JURIST stating:
  • it is legally and morally impossible for any member of the executive branch to be acting lawfully or within the scope of his or her authority while following OLC opinions that are manifestly inconsistent with or violative of the law. General Mukasey, just following orders is no defense!
On February 22, 2008 Senator Sheldon Whitehouse made public that "the Justice Department has announced it has launched an investigation of the role of top DOJ officials and staff attorneys in authorizing and/or overseeing the use of waterboarding by U.S. intelligence agencies."

Both houses of the United States Congress approved a bill by February 2008 that would ban waterboarding and other harsh interrogation methods. But President George W. Bush vetoed the bill on March 8, 2008. It appears unlikely that bill supporters will be able to gather enough votes to overturn the veto.

If you still don't believe waterboarding is illegal as torture, YOU should volunteer as a crash test dummy to prove it. If you can't do that, you're just an immoral, loud mouthed, know-nothing chickenshit chickenhawk. :thumbsdown: :|
 

Arkaign

Lifer
Oct 27, 2006
20,736
1,379
126
Originally posted by: DealMonkey
Originally posted by: winnar111
We do know, at a minimum, that another 911 hasn't happened.
That is, quite simply, the stupidest argument ever. Ever!

lol, well I think even my giant meteor argument was more logical :p
 

winnar111

Banned
Mar 10, 2008
2,847
0
0
Originally posted by: Arkaign
Originally posted by: winnar111
Originally posted by: GarfieldtheCat
Originally posted by: winnar111
He didn't ignore the law; he merely offered an alternative interpretation of the current law at the time. The International Military Tribunal was a foreign specially convened body for a special purpose that doesn't necessarily bind domestic actions.

More importantly, the technique used was different than what was used in the 1940s.

Again, you don't understand (or more likely, refuse to understand). Torture (and waterboarding) is *illegal*. The US government convicts its own soldiers and civilians for torture. How you try and say that this happened because of the IMT is just cluelessness. It's a *law*. People don't go to jail for breaking a treay, they go to jail for breaking a *law*.

By your idea, I guess a murderer is innocent if he can give an "alternative interpretation" of the law? I didn't think so.

Where is the law that specifically stated that the scope of the word torture encompassed waterboarding?

Read this in it's entirety :

http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/Inve...ation/story?id=1356870

Circa-2005 CIA Director when asked if waterboarding constituted torture : "I don't know". Well, that's a helluva cavalier attitude to take when your agency is using the technique at the behest of this administration.

So, in other words, as of 2005, we didn't know whether waterboarding constituted torture for legal purposes.

Water boarding was designated as illegal by U.S. generals in Vietnam 40 years ago. A photograph that appeared in The Washington Post of a U.S. soldier involved in water boarding a North Vietnamese prisoner in 1968 led to that soldier's severe punishment.

Since George Bush is the commander in chief, he has the authority to overruled any designations made by any military generals.

According to Sen. John McCain, R-Ariz., himself a torture victim during the Vietnam War, the water board technique is a "very exquisite torture" that should be outlawed.

The fact that it 'should be' outlawed essentially implies that it wasn't.
 

heyheybooboo

Diamond Member
Jun 29, 2007
6,278
0
0
Originally posted by: winnar111
Originally posted by: GarfieldtheCat
Originally posted by: winnar111
He didn't ignore the law; he merely offered an alternative interpretation of the current law at the time. The International Military Tribunal was a foreign specially convened body for a special purpose that doesn't necessarily bind domestic actions.

More importantly, the technique used was different than what was used in the 1940s.

Again, you don't understand (or more likely, refuse to understand). Torture (and waterboarding) is *illegal*. The US government convicts its own soldiers and civilians for torture. How you try and say that this happened because of the IMT is just cluelessness. It's a *law*. People don't go to jail for breaking a treay, they go to jail for breaking a *law*.

By your idea, I guess a murderer is innocent if he can give an "alternative interpretation" of the law? I didn't think so.

Where is the law that specifically stated that the scope of the word torture encompassed waterboarding?

Yeah ...

As long as the pain is not equivalent to death or organ failure. Alberto said so - it has to be true.
 

RightIsWrong

Diamond Member
Apr 29, 2005
5,649
0
0
Originally posted by: winnar111

Read the article:

One administration official familiar with the meetings said the CIA made such a convincing case that no one questioned whether the methods were necessary to prevent further terrorist attacks.

The CIA believed then, and now, that the program was useful and helped save lives," said a former senior intelligence official knowledgeable about the events.

"But given the tenor of the times and the belief that more attacks were coming, they felt they had to do what they could to stop the attack."

I noticed that you skipped around and cherry picked sentences that made your case seem stronger and left out the inconvenient sentences:

But others who were present said Tenet seemed more interested in protecting his subordinates than in selling the administration on a policy that administration lawyers had already authorized.

"The suggestion that someone from CIA came in and browbeat everybody is ridiculous," said one former agency official familiar with the meeting.

Originally posted by: winnar111

My point precisely. The fact that lots of other people have done it makes it not unusual.

Cool. I guess that beheadings aren't unusual anymore either since "lots of other people have done it". :roll:


 

Harvey

Administrator<br>Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
35,058
70
91
Originally posted by: winnar111

So, in other words, as of 2005, we didn't know whether waterboarding constituted torture for legal purposes.

You're obviously reading challenged, and, as a human being, you are pathetic.

Since George Bush is the commander in chief, he has the authority to overruled any designations made by any military generals.

No! The President of the United States, as Commander in Chief, does NOT have the authority to break U.S. law or to violate international law and treaties. Either find statutes that prove otherwise, or STFU, just to stop from further embarrassing yourself.

The fact that it 'should be' outlawed essentially implies that it wasn't.

There is NO such implication. The entire history of waterboarding and the actions taken against those who have committed the crime in modern times EXPRESSLY (not implicitly) states that those who commit such acts are guilty of torture.

If you believe otherwise, YOU should volunteer as a crash test dummy to prove it. If you can't do that, you're just an immoral, loud mouthed, know-nothing chickenshit chickenhawk. :thumbsdown: :|

 

winnar111

Banned
Mar 10, 2008
2,847
0
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Originally posted by: Harvey

No! The President of the United States, as Commander in Chief, does NOT have the authority to break U.S. law or to violate international law and treaties. Either find statutes that prove otherwise, or STFU, just to stop from further embarrassing yourself.

Who said he did? Harvey? David Miliband? Louise Arbour? Bent Sørensen? Michael D. Maples? The Red Cross?

I'm glad to know that, when Obama becomes President, these people will be able to overrule him! :laugh:

I'll ask you again: Where is the statute that either:

A: Defines waterboarding as torture
B: Bans the CIA from performing waterboarding whether it is torture or not.
 

winnar111

Banned
Mar 10, 2008
2,847
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Originally posted by: RightIsWrong
Originally posted by: winnar111

My point precisely. The fact that lots of other people have done it makes it not unusual.

Cool. I guess that beheadings aren't unusual anymore either since "lots of other people have done it". :roll:


As a form of execution of the legally convicted, why shouldn't it be?
 

Arkaign

Lifer
Oct 27, 2006
20,736
1,379
126
Originally posted by: winnar111
Originally posted by: RightIsWrong
Originally posted by: winnar111

My point precisely. The fact that lots of other people have done it makes it not unusual.

Cool. I guess that beheadings aren't unusual anymore either since "lots of other people have done it". :roll:


As a form of execution of the legally convicted, why shouldn't it be?

You're a joke, but please, keep digging yourself in. It's always interesting to see extremists at work trying to twist reality to match their warped views.
 

RightIsWrong

Diamond Member
Apr 29, 2005
5,649
0
0
Originally posted by: winnar111
Originally posted by: RightIsWrong
Originally posted by: winnar111

My point precisely. The fact that lots of other people have done it makes it not unusual.

Cool. I guess that beheadings aren't unusual anymore either since "lots of other people have done it". :roll:

As a form of execution of the legally convicted, why shouldn't it be?

Where are the convictions or even trials of those that were tortured by our government as evidence that the associations they are accused of and being tortured over are legit?
 

winnar111

Banned
Mar 10, 2008
2,847
0
0
Originally posted by: RightIsWrong
Originally posted by: winnar111
Originally posted by: RightIsWrong
Originally posted by: winnar111

My point precisely. The fact that lots of other people have done it makes it not unusual.

Cool. I guess that beheadings aren't unusual anymore either since "lots of other people have done it". :roll:

As a form of execution of the legally convicted, why shouldn't it be?

Where are the convictions or even trials of those that were tortured by our government as evidence that the associations they are accused of and being tortured over are legit?

These people are enemy combatants who have already confessed to their crimes. We don't owe them any of the protections of our legal system.

I'll ask you the same question i asked Harvey: When did any of our 3 branches of government determine that waterboarding is torture?
 

Butterbean

Banned
Oct 12, 2006
918
1
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Even if this was significant - lefties LOVE this stuff -it makes their day - the more of it there is the more they like it. If it was Bush getting water boarded instead of Islamofascists they would cheer. Die-hard Libs dont mind harsh interrogations unless its against the bad guys. Their hatred reverses the polarity of their souls so they do things backwards.
 

Arkaign

Lifer
Oct 27, 2006
20,736
1,379
126
Originally posted by: Butterbean
Even if this was significant - lefties LOVE this stuff -it makes their day - the more of it there is the more they like it. If it was Bush getting water boarded instead of Islamofascists they would cheer. Die-hard Libs dont mind harsh interrogations unless its against the bad guys. Their hatred reverses the polarity of their souls so they do things backwards.

You're an idiot. This is not a right/left issue, it's a smart/dumb issue, as well as a standard of honor and morality for this nation.

Btw,

I guess Tom Ridge, Mike McConnell (DONI), Michael Hayden, etc, etc are all 'Die-Hard Libs'.

The bottom line is that we are a better country than to support such bullshit. We've historically been above it, punishing enemies for using this technique, and abiding by international treaties which ban its use.
 

winnar111

Banned
Mar 10, 2008
2,847
0
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Oh, and more on beheading for RightisWrong:

The closest thing we have to a ban against 'beheading' of foreigners off US soil is the 1976 Executive order preventing any member of the United States government from engaging in an assassination.

Since it's an Executive Order, Bush is free to ignore it, which is why we could shoot Saddam's sons.
 

GarfieldtheCat

Diamond Member
Jan 7, 2005
3,708
1
0
Originally posted by: winnar111
Originally posted by: RightIsWrong
Originally posted by: winnar111
Originally posted by: RightIsWrong
Originally posted by: winnar111

My point precisely. The fact that lots of other people have done it makes it not unusual.

Cool. I guess that beheadings aren't unusual anymore either since "lots of other people have done it". :roll:

As a form of execution of the legally convicted, why shouldn't it be?

Where are the convictions or even trials of those that were tortured by our government as evidence that the associations they are accused of and being tortured over are legit?

These people are enemy combatants who have already confessed to their crimes. We don't owe them any of the protections of our legal system.

I'll ask you the same question i asked Harvey: When did any of our 3 branches of government determine that waterboarding is torture?

I think it is obvious to 99% of all the posters here that you are nothing but a pathetic neo-con troll, but read this link:

Link


I realize you don't have a clue about how our government works, and that you live in the neocon fantasy land where the President is all-powerful, but it doesn't work that way, except in your dreams. The President *cannot* overrule the laws of this country. Some specific federal laws are listed below from the article I linked.

WE have posted where the US bovernment has arrested and convicted it's own soldiers and citizens for torture and waterboarding. We have posted links the laws that says it's illegal. All you do is spout some BS that "Bush says it's OK". Either post *real* proof proving your position or STFU.


Some quotes:
The War Crimes Act of 1996 (18 U.S.C. § 2441) makes it a criminal offense for U.S. military personnel and U.S. nationals to commit war crimes as specified in the 1949 Geneva Conventions. War crimes under the act include grave breaches of the Geneva Conventions. It also includes violations of common Article 3 to the Geneva Conventions, which prohibits ?violence to life and person, in particular murder of all kinds, mutilation, cruel treatment and torture; ?outrages upon personal dignity, in particular humiliating and degrading treatment.

A federal anti-torture statute (18 U.S.C. § 2340A), enacted in 1994, provides for the prosecution of a U.S. national or anyone present in the United States who, while outside the U.S., commits or attempts to commit torture. Torture is defined as an ?act committed by a person acting under the color of law specifically intended to inflict severe physical or mental pain or suffering (other than pain or suffering incidental to lawful sanctions) upon another person within his custody or physical control.? A person found guilty under the act can be incarcerated for up to 20 years or receive the death penalty if the torture results in the victim?s death.