Arkaign
Lifer
- Oct 27, 2006
- 20,736
- 1,377
- 126
Well, I'm glad to say that is a pretty good compromise from vastly different perspectives, and I think that it's a reasonable conclusion to a pretty heated debate on a very contentious and serious issue.
In ideal terms, as I said before, the need for rendition/extradition should not arise, as we should be fully equipped to prosecute and punish those guilty parties, including the use of capital punishment, without involving outside entities.
In cases such as Mr. 20, where we legally hobbled ourselves, it is of my preference that he be handed over to such an entity that has a legal issue with him that will deal appropriate punishment for his atrocities.
Hopefully in the near future, our processes will become clearer and more efficient, instead of murkier and more convoluted.
It's better to focus on things that we agree on, which are not insignificant, as it appears that we both desire the full pursuit of destruction / punishment of terrorists and criminal organizations which deserve it.
With that, I will remove you from my sig, I admittedly was angry over an issue I am quite passionate about. I love my country very much, and my family has sacrificed much to defend the freedom, system of law, and honor of our nation. I hate to see it stained in any way.
Arkaign
Lifer
- Oct 27, 2006
- 20,736
- 1,377
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The Judge did the only thing she morally or legally could do, abide by the laws which are the basis of our great nation. Don't like it, change the law. But I applaud this Judge for doing the right thing, even if it meant the sacrifice of one case against a very horrible man.
In general though, national standards and the rule of law > a single case.
You are correct, our goals are the same, perhaps ways to obtain them need to be worked out still, but in the end we both want the same thing.
How about the law? You know, that big set of books that lists what any US citizen can't do without getting arrested?
You want to torture, get Congress to pass a law that says "You can't torture us, but we reserve the right to torture anyone we think might be a terrorist, or anyone else we don't like". Everyone can vote and we will see where everyone stands.
Then we can vote against anyone that votes in favor of it.
Ironic, coming from one of the greatest wimps of all.
You are so scared of the bogeyman that you are OK with torturing innocent people just so you can feel safe while sleeping. What a tough guy you are.
What are you babbling about? I didn't mention KSM.
You are the "tough guy" that needs to feel strong by having innocent people tortured, not me. I bet you feel really tough know that you got to hear how bad that one guy was tortured.
screw the law, he has no rights, he isn't an american citizen. lets torture the hell out of him and not tell anyone. hell, lets test some new weaponry and new medicine on him for the advancement of the american people. radiation therapy maybe, testing new vaccines not approved by fda?
JohnOfSheffield
Lifer
- Jun 26, 2007
- 11,925
- 2
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Son, even though you are more deserving of that than most, it's not something that an honorable man would do.
So you'll have to ask CsG or Duwelon to spank you raw.
Meanwhile, there is nothing new to report in the NW, business as usual, only a tad more.
JohnOfSheffield
Lifer
- Jun 26, 2007
- 11,925
- 2
- 0
JohnOfSheffield
Lifer
- Jun 26, 2007
- 11,925
- 2
- 0
And THIS is the what i'm in a place eating food from the 80's for?
Shut the fuck up and get your arse over here son, we can always use another sandbag unit.
In case your single celled brain didn't get the memo, the CIA has acknowledged that torturing Khalid Sheikh Mohammed got NOTHING from him but bullshit.
That said, if you're such a fan of torture, maybe you should spend some quality time with him in his cell. If you're nice to him, maybe he'll let you call him "Bubbah" and make you his new best "friend."
So are you for torture or against it? You keep saying you want Bush to go to Gitmo and get waterboarded.. Are you just for torture when its against U.S. citizens? Or just people you disagree with? Can you define your support of torture because you don't seem to be consistent. I guess those with 1 brain cell are more articulate than you.
OrByte
Diamond Member
- Jul 21, 2000
- 9,302
- 144
- 106
why backroom?
why not behead the man, post the clip on freerepublic or townhall?
I mean, after all....we are coming down to their level right?
We let the terrorists dictate our responses..... it is just the logical endpoint of things.
With people like Bush and Co in charge this is exactly what happens.
This nation has become so polarized during the Bush administration. You have obviously rational people spouting some of the most insane shit about situations just because they don't want to get labeled as unpatriotic or unamerican. They play the party line perfectly.
Torture is revenge; it rarely gets you useful information and certainly nothing "actionable." However, it does make the torturer feel better about the situation, that's why it's survived for so long. On some level, the institution gets a level of gratification from the pain and suffering inflicted. However, what is concerning is that up until this administration, there were strict controls on interrogation and torture. Torture has fallen by the wayside because we are supposed to be better than our base instincts, which scream for blood whenever we are wronged. It just shows how out of touch this administration has been that it gave up 150 years of established military conduct to ease it's pain. I mean, we didn't torture Nazi war criminals even though they were responsible for hundreds of thousands of American deaths. We tried them (albeit in a sham trial, but still) and applied a swift punishment. We didn't hook electrodes to their nuts and shock them for weeks.
Honestly, I hope that the Obama Administration has more self-control and a sense of conscience to not allow this sort of base instinct to take over our rational selves. This is just a shameful period in American history.
Torture is revenge; it rarely gets you useful information and certainly nothing "actionable." However, it does make the torturer feel better about the situation, that's why it's survived for so long. On some level, the institution gets a level of gratification from the pain and suffering inflicted. However, what is concerning is that up until this administration, there were strict controls on interrogation and torture. Torture has fallen by the wayside because we are supposed to be better than our base instincts, which scream for blood whenever we are wronged. It just shows how out of touch this administration has been that it gave up 150 years of established military conduct to ease it's pain. I mean, we didn't torture Nazi war criminals even though they were responsible for hundreds of thousands of American deaths. We tried them (albeit in a sham trial, but still) and applied a swift punishment. We didn't hook electrodes to their nuts and shock them for weeks.
Honestly, I hope that the Obama Administration has more self-control and a sense of conscience to not allow this sort of base instinct to take over our rational selves. This is just a shameful period in American history.
Zebo
Elite Member
- Jul 29, 2001
- 39,398
- 19
- 81
Torture works just fine and has for thousands of years stop believing these politicians who wag the dog. They claim torture doesn't work so people and politicains don't have to confront to moral implications of a time bomb scenario or are we willing to 'go all the way' with a torture regime, all the way as in permant disability or death, - so rather than do that it's easier to dismiss it outright as ineffective.
<a target=_blank class=ftalternatingbarlinklarge href="http://in.ibtimes.com/articles/20071212/waterboarding-torture-cia-al-qaeda.htm">Former CIA interrogator John Kiriakou told U.S. news media that suspected al Qaeda lieutenant Abu Zubaida agreed to cooperate after being subjected to the simulated drowning technique for less than a minute by CIA officials in 2002.
"It was like flipping a switch," </a>
And
3 Suspects Talk After Iraqi Soldiers Do Dirty Work
The greatest people in this nation's history have taken hard stands based on morality that potentially put Americans at risk. One small example is Eisenhower not pre-emptively striking the Soviet's when we had the nuclear arms race lead in the very beginning. The reason people did this is that risking the American spirit and sense of idealism was worse than the physical risk we put outselves at. Potentially missing a terrorist lead by not engaging in torture is a FAR better outcome than breaking the centuries long quest of being a free people that lead by virtue.
The fact that some angst ridden teenager who makes up stories about sipping coffee in the Gaza strip is trying to lecture about false imprisonment being necessary in a world of evil is laughable. (If anyone follows RichardE's posts the kid makes up a new story that relates to current events every week). When you grow up and learn to respect the sense of morality our founding father's tried to put in the constitution you will realize what it truly means to be American.
The fact that some angst ridden teenager who makes up stories about sipping coffee in the Gaza strip is trying to lecture about false imprisonment being necessary in a world of evil is laughable. (If anyone follows RichardE's posts the kid makes up a new story that relates to current events every week). When you grow up and learn to respect the sense of morality our founding father's tried to put in the constitution you will realize what it truly means to be American.
If torture can get you the information that could prevent a next terrorist attack, would you say no to torture? How would you explain to the family who lost their love one to attack that we couldn't prevent it because we didn't get the information we need from because we don't allow torture. Are you going to pay for ti with your live? And to be honest, the so call torture they endure is much less than what they have at city county jail. What it mean to be American? You have to be alive to be an American.
What if, among the people saved, is a monster who, because he survives, later destroys the world.
The moment you put that if in there you create a prison of your own thinking. You can justify anything with an if.
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