Burning the Bridge that "Golden Gates" Built - What more does Linux Need?

[n0cmonkey]

<< to tell you the truth, i dont think linux should try to evolve with a goal of replacing windows, and i dont think it is doing that. i am fine with linux's 'difficulty', what i'm more worried about is MS' presence and shady business tactics. >>



j00 like being 31337

I dont need a Windows replacement either, but seeing the possibility of it would be great. Of course, there is always Mac OS X

One of the big problems I see is that the server development and the desktop development are very different. What helps performance on a desktop could really hurt the performance on a desktop. That worries me. I dont want Linux to take the desktop world at the expense of the server market. I personally think the server market is more important to Linux than the desktop market could be.

 

[freebsddude]

I believe that there are several "classes" of users that have a preference. I actually like the fact that we have choices, which probably also enables various niches, competition, etc.

Linux has to have a business centric facet, catering to, among other things strong business applications with OS transparency. My boss does not want to know how to install a .dll or a .so, all he wants is his "damn" laptop to spew word and excel docs. Of course, this is just one example.

Or kids, they want to pop in a floppy or press a button and play their favorite games, whatever. I think we all agree that *nix powered machines are prolly the most efficient ones made especially on an Intel based platform.

When business people think of unix they thing of user (unfriendly) command lines, and servers, Linux needs to make a strong desktop/laptop case and have the ammo to prove it.

 

[Psychoholic]

<< Hey Psychoholic, havent seen you around lately. Hope everything is going well. Anyhow, several companies have begun to support Linux. Oracle does. nVidia is providing drivers for their video cards, ATI is also supporting the XFree86 group with information on their cards. Matrox has always helped out the Open Source community. Sun sells some Linux solutions (Cobalt products) and several big companies have been endorsing and supporting Linux (Dell, IBM, etc). Apple has even helped support open source/free software groups. Many of these companies are getting some good press from the linux community. If I see a product that is superior and will provide me with much needed abilities (or whatnot) I have no problem with purchasing it. Linuxsoftware sales would definitely be a smaller profit than the Windows software, but that does not make it futile. >>



I'm doing fine, thanks for asking.
It's been rough the past few months between work and a few side projects. Hopefully things are going to start slowing down some.

It's actually good to see that some vendors that you mentioned are suppoorting Linux. If they can make a buck doing so that's great. As time goes on more will be able to do so, but not until they an make money doing so. I don't follow Dell too much but didn't they back off shipping Linux desktops for a while??? Or am I thinking of someone else???

 

[n0cmonkey]

<<

<< Hey Psychoholic, havent seen you around lately. Hope everything is going well. Anyhow, several companies have begun to support Linux. Oracle does. nVidia is providing drivers for their video cards, ATI is also supporting the XFree86 group with information on their cards. Matrox has always helped out the Open Source community. Sun sells some Linux solutions (Cobalt products) and several big companies have been endorsing and supporting Linux (Dell, IBM, etc). Apple has even helped support open source/free software groups. Many of these companies are getting some good press from the linux community. If I see a product that is superior and will provide me with much needed abilities (or whatnot) I have no problem with purchasing it. Linuxsoftware sales would definitely be a smaller profit than the Windows software, but that does not make it futile. >>



I'm doing fine, thanks for asking.
It's been rough the past few months between work and a few side projects. Hopefully things are going to start slowing down some.

It's actually good to see that some vendors that you mentioned are suppoorting Linux. If they can make a buck doing so that's great. As time goes on more will be able to do so, but not until they an make money doing so. I don't follow Dell too much but didn't they back off shipping Linux desktops for a while??? Or am I thinking of someone else??? >>



They stopped shipping desktops/laptops with linux, but last I heard they still have linux servers available. Thats where the support needs to start in my opinion.

 

[Barnaby W. Füi]

<<

<< to tell you the truth, i dont think linux should try to evolve with a goal of replacing windows, and i dont think it is doing that. i am fine with linux's 'difficulty', what i'm more worried about is MS' presence and shady business tactics. >>



j00 like being 31337

I dont need a Windows replacement either, but seeing the possibility of it would be great. Of course, there is always Mac OS X >>


the way i see it, linux is usually good for extreme novices, and for nerds, but not for the 'in-between' person. for novices, you can have someone set up mandrake or something, install abiword or staroffice, and a bunch of other pretty gui stuff, and the person won't know the difference. (and/or they won't care)....for 'nerds', they usually end up adapting to linux and eventually realizing how limiting windows is, and they dont go back.

but the inbetween person is harder. like my girlfriend. she knows what drive letters are, she knows the basics of how windows actually works, so all of that experience would be worthless in linux. plus the fact that her main reason for using a computer is games, so that makes it even worse. but gamers are another story.

but as it is now, for a total computer idiot, they could have linux set up for them by someone who hopefully knows what they are doing, and they really wouldn't miss out on much.

 

[n0cmonkey]

Mac OS X is possibly a perfect (as perfect as something can be) combination of power and easy. Gaming is still a problem, but they are a subset of the computer industry unto themselves.

 

[NorthenLove]

I think Linux doesn't have to do much to replace Windows if MS keeps moving in this direction......The Future of Windows ??

P.S. This is OT but here's a snapshot of Sharp's new Linux based PDA

 

[DaHitman]

<<
They stopped shipping desktops/laptops with linux, but last I heard they still have linux servers available. Thats where the support needs to start in my opinion. >>



Actually... they started up again my friend...due to customer demand..



<<
Dell Factory Installs Red Hat Linux 7.2
Red Hat Linux 7.2 Available on All Dell PowerEdge Servers and Precision Workstations
>>



http://www.dell.com/us/en/gen/corporate/press/pressoffice_us_2001-11-19-aus-001.htm

 

[n0cmonkey]

<<

<<
They stopped shipping desktops/laptops with linux, but last I heard they still have linux servers available. Thats where the support needs to start in my opinion. >>



Actually... they started up again my friend...due to customer demand..



<<
Dell Factory Installs Red Hat Linux 7.2
Red Hat Linux 7.2 Available on All Dell PowerEdge Servers and Precision Workstations
>>



http://www.dell.com/us/en/gen/corporate/press/pressoffice_us_2001-11-19-aus-001.htm >>




oooooh pretty

Unfortunately I wouldnt buy a dell workstation, and I wouldnt use RedHat if I could help it

Great link though, thanks.

 

[Barnaby W. Füi]

<< Mac OS X is possibly a perfect (as perfect as something can be) combination of power and easy. Gaming is still a problem, but they are a subset of the computer industry unto themselves. >>


i agree. if i had the cash for a mac i'd definitely get one (perhaps an imac )


<< P.S. This is OT but here's a snapshot of Sharp's new Linux based PDA >>


linux.....pda.....drool

hey northenlove, my b-day's coming up this july

 

[n0cmonkey]

<<

<< Mac OS X is possibly a perfect (as perfect as something can be) combination of power and easy. Gaming is still a problem, but they are a subset of the computer industry unto themselves. >>


i agree. if i had the cash for a mac i'd definitely get one (perhaps an imac )


<< P.S. This is OT but here's a snapshot of Sharp's new Linux based PDA >>


linux.....pda.....drool

hey northenlove, my b-day's coming up this july >>



Ill buy you one. If you buy me the things Im pricing at newegg right now

 

[Barnaby W. Füi]

<<

<<

<< Mac OS X is possibly a perfect (as perfect as something can be) combination of power and easy. Gaming is still a problem, but they are a subset of the computer industry unto themselves. >>


i agree. if i had the cash for a mac i'd definitely get one (perhaps an imac )


<< P.S. This is OT but here's a snapshot of Sharp's new Linux based PDA >>


linux.....pda.....drool

hey northenlove, my b-day's coming up this july >>



Ill buy you one. If you buy me the things Im pricing at newegg right now >>


YOU GOT YOURSELF A DE...A..L.......HEEEY......no way.

 

[n0cmonkey]

<<

<<

<<

<< Mac OS X is possibly a perfect (as perfect as something can be) combination of power and easy. Gaming is still a problem, but they are a subset of the computer industry unto themselves. >>


i agree. if i had the cash for a mac i'd definitely get one (perhaps an imac )


<< P.S. This is OT but here's a snapshot of Sharp's new Linux based PDA >>


linux.....pda.....drool

hey northenlove, my b-day's coming up this july >>



Ill buy you one. If you buy me the things Im pricing at newegg right now >>


YOU GOT YOURSELF A DE...A..L.......HEEEY......no way. >>



Its not that bad... Only $1465.00. Not bad for 5 almost complete eccp109 cracking machines


*unless of course you had accepted in which case I would have upped to Athlon XP2000+'s

 

[Grommet5]

<< I have to admit, with great pain and humiliation, that my main home system has been booted to Win2K for about the past 2 months because Linux doesn't have a decent 3D CAD program that I am aware of. >>



Good point, infact Linux DOESNT have any professional cad, cam, fem apps. Also, i'm not talking about the cheap cad/cam apps, the apps i'm talking about usually are very costly. Infact, most apps like Pro/E, Gibbs, mastercam, cimatron, catia, solidworks, surfcam and Autocad are used by lots of aerospace, electronic, plastic/mold business, and i really doubt they are going to spend another $20,000-30K just to buy a another, or a linux license.

 

[GonzoDaGr8]

<<

<< I have to admit, with great pain and humiliation, that my main home system has been booted to Win2K for about the past 2 months because Linux doesn't have a decent 3D CAD program that I am aware of. >>



Good point, infact Linux DOESNT have any professional cad, cam, fem apps. Also, i'm not talking about the cheap cad/cam apps, the apps i'm talking about usually are very costly. Infact, most apps like Pro/E, Gibbs, mastercam, cimatron, catia, solidworks, surfcam and Autocad are used by lots of aerospace, electronic, plastic/mold business, and i really doubt they are going to spend another $20,000-30K just to buy a another, or a linux license. >>



We prolly never will have these apps available for linux either..Many of these mentioned (Gibbs and Associates) don't even support the MAC anymore either..Our company is migrating to XP Pro boxes from PowerMacs' so we can run mastercam..Maybe an emulator will work someday, But I don't possibly see anyone porting $10k-$20k software just to run it on Linux.

 

[thornc]

<< I've dabbled in Win32 C programming a bit in the past. It's a horrible programming API.

I think thornc is referring to the Win32 platform as a whole; even then, it's very arguable how great things are. Popularity through illegal monopoly abuse and greatness are two different things. >>



OK, perhaps it insn't great but it is good... and that's has nothing to do with monopoly! If the win32 platform was that bad we would
be using MAC OS, OS/2 or something else. Win32 as a programming API has been around since the win95 release it has evolved
a little and there are many wrappers around it, but the core remains the same. If you use pure win32 api functions you programs
will work for any windows release with none or minor modifications. Linux needs something like this, they can't remain on the
C library for ever. GTK and QT are good for gui stuff but so are Motif, X libs, libforms and others....so as you can see just for the
GUI you have at least 5 compiting API!! I believe choice is good, but there are some things where a true defined standard rules!

 

[manly]

<<
They stopped shipping desktops/laptops with linux, but last I heard they still have linux servers available. Thats where the support needs to start in my opinion. >>



An article [www.washingtonpost.com] referring to one reason why Dell stopped offering Linux on desktops.

 

[Eug]

Linux needs people trained in designing a user friendly install process and GUI. It seems to me (layperson) that the Linux developers are simply designing for themselves, ie. people who already know the hardcore inner workings of how Linux works. This is fine for the current Linux market, but useless for the average desktop user. I always use the example of the design of Linux oriented websites. They are somewhat functional and have the relevant information, but often are a pain to navigate, and have aesthetics on par with my old 1977 Dodge station wagon. Functional? Yes, to an extent. Cheap? Yes. A joy to use? Not a chance in hell.

Indeed, Linus Torvalds didn't bring *nix to the end user, Steve Jobs did. Mac OS X is truly an elegant *nix solution for the end user. In some (but not all) ways, I prefer the GUI over Windows XP, yet it's FreeBSD running underneath. Mac OS X ain't perfect that's for sure, but I liked it so much I bought my first Mac ever last year.

 

[n0cmonkey]

<< Linux needs people trained in designing a user friendly install process and GUI. >>



The install processes does not need to be gui, and the gui is pretty simple right now. I think you want a complicated gui right? One that you can do almost everything in the system through?



<< It seems to me (layperson) that the Linux developers are simply designing for themselves, ie. people who already know the hardcore inner workings of how Linux works. >>



You think its easy to code for someone else? Probably not. Thats what QA testers and all those marketing dillholes who talk to people about how something "works" are supposed to figure out. The developers just want it to work.



<< This is fine for the current Linux market, but useless for the average desktop user. >>



I disagree. Unless of course you talk just about users that have been spoiled by Windows. Of course you wont get the BSOD Its not perfect, its not ready for everyone's desktop. It probably wont ever be ready for all desktops, but its not totally "useless."



<< I always use the example of the design of Linux oriented websites. They are somewhat functional and have the relevant information, but often are a pain to navigate, >>



Anandtech.com is a pain in the ass to navigate. Many sites out there are. Slackware.com on the other hand I have little problems with. Debian.org is also easy to navigate. openbsd.org is the best out of all (Im biased ), and *VERY* easy to navigate.



<< and have aesthetics on par with my old 1977 Dodge station wagon. >>



All the linux/bsd sites I mentioned look great to me. I guess I dont understand.



<< Functional? Yes, to an extent. Cheap? Yes. A joy to use? Not a chance in hell. >>







<< Indeed, Linus Torvalds didn't bring *nix to the end user, Steve Jobs did. Mac OS X is truly an elegant *nix solution for the end user. In some (but not all) ways, I prefer the GUI over Windows XP, yet it's FreeBSD running underneath. >>



Its FreeBSD's userland (roughly) with a Mach kernel.



<< Mac OS X ain't perfect that's for sure, but I liked it so much I bought my first Mac ever last year. >>



Me too.

 

[Eug]

<< The install processes does not need to be gui, and the gui is pretty simple right now. I think you want a complicated gui right? One that you can do almost everything in the system through? >>

I didn't mean to say the install process had to be a GUI. I wanted to say that both the GUI and the install process have to be idiot proof, because a lot of us end users are idiots. Having more widespread driver support would go a long way too, but that isn't Linux's fault per se of course.


<< You think its easy to code for someone else? Probably not. Thats what QA testers and all those marketing dillholes who talk to people about how something "works" are supposed to figure out. The developers just want it to work. >>

Of course. Unfortunately, the Linux side most of the time does not have the resources to deal with this. This is what I see (in some ways) as the Achilles heel - there's no touchy feely side to it. No matter how irrelevant it may seem to a Linux developer, it is relevant. I don't know if you've ever seen them, but there are entire websites dedicated to GUI ergonomics, and include examples of common "mistakes" from Windows shareware and Linux and the like. The software in their examples often might be more powerful than average, but that doesn't necessarily make it user friendly or intuitive.


<< Anandtech.com is a pain in the ass to navigate. Many sites out there are. Slackware.com on the other hand I have little problems with. Debian.org is also easy to navigate. openbsd.org is the best out of all (Im biased ), and *VERY* easy to navigate. >>

Yeah, I was overgeneralizing of course. I don't like the looks of openbsd.org though, although I don't mind debian.org. (Not that I use them at all though.) Redhat.com looks more professional, but looks wise apple.com puts them all to shame. I find it interesting though that the open source Darwin projects sections at Apple look a lot like the Linux websites. Perhaps this is intentional, because their marketing drones had said that the *nix developer types like this sort of setup.


<< I disagree. Unless of course you talk just about users that have been spoiled by Windows. Of course you wont get the BSOD Its not perfect, its not ready for everyone's desktop. It probably wont ever be ready for all desktops, but its not totally "useless." >>

Again, I'm exaggerating. Most people can be taught how to use a computer. Indeed, many people did fine on the very annoying IBM PC XTs, etc. However, nowadays we HAVE been "spoiled" by Windows, Mac OS X, automated teller machines, video games, etc. Good ergonomics is now (becoming) the norm at least to a certain extent. IMO, without the corporate push to cater to the customer in a specific market, the product will usually lag behind in that market. For the Linux developer community, the "customers" are usually themselves, and thus their products will more often than not be less than ideal for most other people.

 

[manly]

Sorry n0c, but I think Eug raises some great points that I agree with this time. However, instead of being spoiled by Winblows, I'd say corrupted is more apt.

Last year, Sun did a usability study of GNOME that was pretty revealing. They basically sat down normal folks (not geeks) to use GNOME. The gyst of the study was that GNOME had a lot of room for improvement.

A simple example of a complaint is the GNOME "foot" icon that serves as the start button. A typical user would have no idea what the heck the foot symbolizes.

The bottom line is that MS has poured many millions of dollars into usability testing, and arguably, each GUI redesign they do is a little bit better for end users. Of course, they borrowed this playbook from Apple.

I feel one of the benefits of commercial investment in open-source software is usability analysis leading to better UIs. IMHO, although the collaborative open-source development model works great for projects such as an OS kernel (and many other technologies), it isn't optimal for end-user app UIs.

I've been exposed to (a little) formal UI study, which I don't believe enough coders are exposed to. Not to imply all apps require additional usability study. However, the design of the GUI environment definitely does. And to a lesser extent, so does the installer.

The installer needs to be easy, convenient, and reliable because M$ has a chokehold on distribution by OEMs. Even though Linux adoption on desktops is relatively minor, it is directly influenced by the quality of the installation routine. By most accounts, the state of the installers in major commercial distros is good and improving these days. Although I haven't tried it in years, I can remember how installation of Debian was not a streamlined process.

 

[mee987]

linux is great, but some of you people think you are superheros for using it

 

[n0cmonkey]

Eug, manly I never said Eug was wrong, in fact many of the things he mentioned were opinions. He was exaggerating on several of his "complaints", and I called him out on that (kind of). He responded well. No doubt about i that Linux user friendliness has a long way to go if the masses are going to switch.

One of my problems is that Im not a normal person. I dont like KDE/Gnome/Windows interfaces. I like blackbox. Simple and functional, but many newbies would be utterly lost. So I would not make a good judge on what is the best for other people to use. I have my opinions and a little foot (how could people *NOT* know what the foot means... idiots) wont change my mind.

And what could you not like about the layout of the OpenBSD site?! Its simple, functional, and fast, just like OpenBSD. Its not there to impress anyone on looks, but on content. (Im biased and love the site )



<< linux is great, but some of you people think you are superheros for using it >>



Go away

 

[mee987]

don't get me wrong, I do use and enjoy linux, but some people go too far with their attacks on microsoft... im suprised i havent heard anyone blame the terrorist attacks on microsoft yet

 

[n0cmonkey]

<< don't get me wrong, I do use and enjoy linux, but some people go too far with their attacks on microsoft... im suprised i havent heard anyone blame the terrorist attacks on microsoft yet >>



Microsoft blamed them on people that pirate software.