Burn them! All of them!

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norseamd

Lifer
Dec 13, 2013
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OK, how is that "done right"? Please tell us.

Clearcut areas could provide prairies and if shelterwood is what I think it is then it could provide savannahs. That could be good for ecosystem diversity depending on what might provide benefits to the particular local environments.
 

rudeguy

Lifer
Dec 27, 2001
47,351
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Clearcut areas could provide prairies and if shelterwood is what I think it is then it could provide savannahs. That could be good for ecosystem diversity depending on what might provide benefits to the particular local environments.

Well I'd say if a forest was good for the local environment, that's probably why it grew there. Are you really saying you want to clear out forest and have savannas?
 

norseamd

Lifer
Dec 13, 2013
13,990
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Did you know that the lumber industry plants more trees than it cuts down? That there are more forest now than 70 years ago?

There are differences in the type of state or stage of any particular ecosystem. This is especially influential on the local fauna, fungi, and other minor organisms like ferns and flowers in the area. Clearcutting everything means few species are going to survive and that means most of the ecosystem diversity is going to get destroyed.
 

norseamd

Lifer
Dec 13, 2013
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Well I'd say if a forest was good for the local environment, that's probably why it grew there. Are you really saying you want to clear out forest and have savannas?

There are small prairies and clearings in forests also.
 

norseamd

Lifer
Dec 13, 2013
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Well if you want to only allow selection harvesting then I am fine with that. Allowing small scale clearcutting and shelterwooding is basically a compromise that would allow most of the National Forests to survive without much destruction.
 

norseamd

Lifer
Dec 13, 2013
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There is a difference between a clearing and a savanna.

Savannah has nothing to do with size of the ecosystem.

A savanna or savannah is a grassland ecosystem characterised by the trees being sufficiently widely spaced so that the canopy does not close. The open canopy allows sufficient light to reach the ground to support an unbroken herbaceous layer consisting primarily of grasses.[1][2][3]

bazinga troll
 

Meghan54

Lifer
Oct 18, 2009
11,676
5,208
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Did you know that the lumber industry plants more trees than it cuts down? That there are more forest now than 70 years ago?

http://sharplogger.vt.edu/virginiasfi/faq.html


Sure, but comparing the hybrid quick growing pine trees that are the staple of "reforestation" by private corps. aren't a replacement for old growth trees, like maple, oak, walnut, etc. Those hardwoods have decades of growing before they're worth seeking out and cutting.

And it's those tree species that are highly prized for their value in furniture building, among other things....certainly not in home building, which is mentioned in your linked article. That wood is almost exclusively pine.

You do know tree farms are harvested about once every ten years, on average. That's how long it takes the hybrid pines to grow enough to be commercially viable for harvesting. So, it's rather disingenuous to crow about how we've got more land planted with trees than any other time in our history, which is correct, but leave out what these trees actually are....a very less desirable tree replacing more valuable, slower growing trees that will never be replaced.
 

rudeguy

Lifer
Dec 27, 2001
47,351
14
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Sure, but comparing the hybrid quick growing pine trees that are the staple of "reforestation" by private corps. aren't a replacement for old growth trees, like maple, oak, walnut, etc. Those hardwoods have decades of growing before they're worth seeking out and cutting.

And it's those tree species that are highly prized for their value in furniture building, among other things....certainly not in home building, which is mentioned in your linked article. That wood is almost exclusively pine.

You do know tree farms are harvested about once every ten years, on average. That's how long it takes the hybrid pines to grow enough to be commercially viable for harvesting. So, it's rather disingenuous to crow about how we've got more land planted with trees than any other time in our history, which is correct, but leave out what these trees actually are....a very less desirable tree replacing more valuable, slower growing trees that will never be replaced.

None of which has anything to do with replacing forests with savannas like derp boy wants.
 

Fern

Elite Member
Sep 30, 2003
26,907
173
106
The article headline itself is completely wrong.

"Republican Senators Just Voted To Sell Off Your National Forests"

The bill specifically says this:

"resolution for one or more bills, joint resolutions,
amendments, amendments between the Houses, motions, or
conference reports relating to initiatives to sell or
transfer to, or exchange with, a State or local government
any Federal land that is not within the boundaries of a
National Park, National Preserve, or National Monument,
by
the amounts provided in such legislation for those purposes,
provided that such legislation would not raise new revenue
and would not increase the deficit over either the period of
the total of fiscal years 2016 through 2020 or the period of
the total of fiscal years 2016 through 2025."

I guess they missed that part. :biggrin:

Yeah, I think quite a few things are wrong.

Here's the entire amendment:

(Purpose: To establish a spending-neutral reserve fund relating to the
disposal of certain Federal land)

At the appropriate place, insert the following:

SEC. ___. SPENDING-NEUTRAL RESERVE FUND RELATING TO THE
DISPOSAL OF CERTAIN FEDERAL LAND.

The Chairman of the Committee on the Budget of the Senate
may revise the allocations of a committee or committees,
aggregates, and other appropriate levels in this resolution for one or more bills, joint resolutions,
amendments, amendments between the Houses, motions, or
conference reports relating to initiatives to sell or
transfer to, or exchange with, a State or local government
any Federal land that is not within the boundaries of a
National Park, National Preserve, or National Monument, by
the amounts provided in such legislation for those purposes,
provided that such legislation would not raise new revenue
and would not increase the deficit over either the period of
the total of fiscal years 2016 through 2020 or the period of
the total of fiscal years 2016 through 2025.

I don't see anywhere within this amendment where any authorization is provided to sell any federal land.

See the bolded parts? That's what this amendment authorizes. Now, the ability to "revise the allocations" does pertain to such bills; but whatever this bill may be it certainly is not a bill authorizing land sales.

As a person who lives in the country I get a real kick out of big city liberals throwing a faux rage party over such stuff. I've got more trees in my yard than you f@ckers have on one of your city blocks. You've got no cred. Get back to me when you start planting plants of the tops of your buildings to make up for your slash and burn ways.

Fern
 

norseamd

Lifer
Dec 13, 2013
13,990
180
106
As a person who lives in the country I get a real kick out of big city liberals throwing a faux rage party over such stuff. I've got more trees in my yard than you f@ckers have on one of your city blocks. You've got no cred. Get back to me when you start planting plants of the tops of your buildings to make up for your slash and burn ways.

That is what everyone ought to be doing right now. And maybe throw in greens walls while we are at it. Not only that but you get vegetable and herb growing space for yourself. There a few of them in America but they tend to be more popular in the European countries especially Scandinavia where it has been tradition for thousands of years now.
 

norseamd

Lifer
Dec 13, 2013
13,990
180
106
See the bolded parts? That's what this amendment authorizes. Now, the ability to "revise the allocations" does pertain to such bills; but whatever this bill may be it certainly is not a bill authorizing land sales.

Considering there is a committee just on means and ways I am confused as to what exactly this bill means now. Lawyers and congressmen are very good at using vague words or doublespeak to allow corruption or exploitation of basically everything they can in America.
 

Drako

Lifer
Jun 9, 2007
10,697
161
106
Considering there is a committee just on means and ways I am confused as to what exactly this bill means now. Lawyers and congressmen are very good at using vague words or doublespeak to allow corruption or exploitation of basically everything they can in America.

It's not really that confusing if you have a basic understanding of English, and don't jump to the conclusions that are in the link you posted. :rolleyes:
 

norseamd

Lifer
Dec 13, 2013
13,990
180
106
So is this sorting of the meaning of the words correct?

The Chairman of the Committee on the Budget of the Senate
may revise the allocations of a committee or committees,
aggregates, and other appropriate levels in this resolution
for one or more bills, joint resolutions,
amendments, amendments between the Houses, motions, or
conference reports
relating to initiatives to sell or
transfer to, or exchange with, a State or local government
any Federal land that is not within the boundaries of a
National Park, National Preserve, or National Monument,
by
the amounts provided in such legislation for those purposes,
provided that such legislation would not raise new revenue
and would not increase the deficit over either the period of
the total of fiscal years 2016 through 2020 or the period of
the total of fiscal years 2016 through 2025.
 

norseamd

Lifer
Dec 13, 2013
13,990
180
106
It's not really that confusing if you have a basic understanding of English, and don't jump to the conclusions that are in the link you posted.

So is this basically going to be like the federal government withholding money from the state government until they raise the drinking age? Allow the committee to influence congress proceedings and laws through the control of the money concerning such proceedings or laws?
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
126
OK, how is that "done right"? Please tell us.

Did you know that the lumber industry plants more trees than it cuts down? That there are more forest now than 70 years ago?

http://sharplogger.vt.edu/virginiasfi/faq.html
C'mon, dude. That was simply a chart showing different harvesting methods. His point was that done right, forest cutting can be beneficial, not that this was a picture of such cutting done right.

There are corporations who excel at this sort of thing. Anderson Tully for instance can take a million board feet from a forest and leave it looking like old growth, because of their ethic but even more so because of their products. Sustainable harvest of hardwoods for high grade lumber needs hardwoods grown in mature forests, because the canopy encourages young trees to spend their energy growing up toward the light rather than growing spreading limbs to better catch the light. By selectively cutting young but mature, straight trees overshadowed by huge old trees, Anderson Tully can harvest very high quality timber without damaging the forest, and it will naturally regenerate a new crop of high quality timber. It's even good for the forest, since the new growth encouraged offers excellent and accessible browse.

However, there is very little profit compared to simply clearcutting. Quality companies like Anderson Tully, who cut the lands they own, are in it for the long haul, and are actively seeking the highest quality timber will forgo that quick profit to guarantee a long term supply of the highest quality timber. But the highest profit will always come from clear-cutting, and unless restrained from doing so cash-strapped states will tend to go for the high return much more often than the federal government, which can simply print a new batch of cash or call Uncle Chang.

Once clear cut, a forest takes hundreds of years to fully regenerate. The first trees to grow are those smaller opportunistic species which grow quickly. Typically the hardwoods naturally regenerate, depending on browser bioload, but as they grow more slowly and are spreading out to compete for light they don't form the mature forest canopy. Only as those trees age and die are they replaced by the majestic, tall-rising trees of a mature hardwood forest that grew up in the original hardwood colonizers' shadow. For hardwoods that takes at least sixty years and often much longer, and then the faunal population (and the obligate shadow-dwelling flora) needs time to recolonize the restored habitat.

I believe that Norseamd was referring to selective clearcuts, where foresters clear cut relatively small swaths among healthy forests as a means of increasing carrying capacity. Mature old growth forests are fairly unproductive and since we've removed so much of the wilderness, we need our National Forests to support more animals per acre. (Especially big, tasty animals like deer and elk.)

Sure, but comparing the hybrid quick growing pine trees that are the staple of "reforestation" by private corps. aren't a replacement for old growth trees, like maple, oak, walnut, etc. Those hardwoods have decades of growing before they're worth seeking out and cutting.

And it's those tree species that are highly prized for their value in furniture building, among other things....certainly not in home building, which is mentioned in your linked article. That wood is almost exclusively pine.

You do know tree farms are harvested about once every ten years, on average. That's how long it takes the hybrid pines to grow enough to be commercially viable for harvesting. So, it's rather disingenuous to crow about how we've got more land planted with trees than any other time in our history, which is correct, but leave out what these trees actually are....a very less desirable tree replacing more valuable, slower growing trees that will never be replaced.
I don't think that's correct. Last I read up on it, typically it takes sixteen to twenty years for the structural changes that makes lumber valuable. Pure pulpers might take trees that are younger, but that market is heavily declining anyway as the Chinese take over the printing market. Young pines are not a very valuable commodity in today's market.

I resent that!!!!!!!:mad:


:)

Fern
:D
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,681
136
I know Democrats had a majority in both houses and the Presidency not long ago despite Republican resistance. Then Obamacare lost them the House and gun control lost them the Senate.

Nice attribution that has nothing to do with the topic but that's not unusual for you, anyway.

So let's follow this scenario on through. States get the land & sell it off to investors. So you'll have to pay to hunt, fish & hike in even smaller ranges than today, simply because private land owners don't have to let anybody in. Hike to the top of Mt Massive? Pay up. Raft the Colorado river? Pay up. Hunt? same-same.

The people at state govt level pushing for this don't want to hold the land in public trust at all. They want to sell it to the highest bidder in huge chunks that put middle class people out of the bidding & paying rents for what they can now do for free.
 

Blanky

Platinum Member
Oct 18, 2014
2,457
12
46
Private business could better take care of all the national forests than the nation. Toxic chemicals and strip mining are good for all of us!
 

norseamd

Lifer
Dec 13, 2013
13,990
180
106
So I made a typo in that comment. Than was supposed to be that although not sure if it was causing the comment to be read any differently but whatever.