• We’re currently investigating an issue related to the forum theme and styling that is impacting page layout and visual formatting. The problem has been identified, and we are actively working on a resolution. There is no impact to user data or functionality, this is strictly a front-end display issue. We’ll post an update once the fix has been deployed. Thanks for your patience while we get this sorted.

Burden of Proof - Does it ever lie with Atheists?

Page 5 - Seeking answers? Join the AnandTech community: where nearly half-a-million members share solutions and discuss the latest tech.
Rob M. said:
Where's evidence of the fish? We have evidence of Cyrus, his tomb and his scroll (or roll, I don't remember which), there's evidence of the date of this conquest, there was even a city named "Babylon".
Click to expand...
But those are not the things we are testing. I have evidence I went to the lake. I have evidence of a sunburn. I even have the wrapper from the sandwich and the can from the beer I drank.

EDIT: What is being tested is that it was prophesied before hand. None of the other things are being contested.

The failure of this silly analogy is that with the prophecy, several people are involved at the least -- the Bible writer, Cyrus, his army, the people of Babylon, etc... Oh, and God himself. Not to mention one other writer mention Cyrus by name, Jeremiah.

No one is involved with this "catch" other than you.
Click to expand...

There were dozens of people there. I don't know any of them, so you can't ask them. But
lots of people were there!
 
Last edited:
SMOGZINN said:
But those are not the things we are testing. I have evidence I went to the lake. I have evidence of a sunburn. I even have the wrapper from the sandwich and the can from the beer I drank.




There were dozens of people there. I don't know any of them, so you can't ask them. But
lots of people were there!
Click to expand...

You need to go find those people, I guess. Or have them write down testimony, which your story, again lacks.

Nice try!
 
Rob M. said:
I bail on speculative claims because they can never be refuted - never. The nature of those claims have almost always no factual basis to attempt to rebut.

Secondly, if you have fixed in your mind something isn't real, you will never believe it no matter the evidence.
Click to expand...

You're not doing this? You shouldn't complain about someone doing something you also doing. I mean I assume there is no argument I nor anyone could make that could compel you to change your mind about the validity, authenticity, and righteousness of the Bible? How's that any different?

The only people I've come across that examine this sort of evidence is open minded skeptics. These type of people normally don't speculate and deny like some of you have done. They consider the evidence before them without a predetermined conclusion.

You guys seem to be doing the complete opposite.
Click to expand...

Point out where I am doing this. I think with the exception of one person, everyone has been at least cordial.

Perhaps you're too emotionally attached to the topic to discuss it fairly? Obviously you are coming here with a bag full of presumptions, and unfortunately you seem to be unable to recuse yourself from that attachment. Arguing that people are not being impartial is a tough sell when it so obvious how partial you are.

Finally, I have already pointed out that you are arguing against atheists when there are numerous theist groups we could list that would argue against the validity of the Bible, so clearly either atheists are not your problem, or your problem with them is not limited to their arguments against the Bible.
 
Rob M. said:
You need to go find those people, I guess. Or have them write down testimony, which your story, again lacks.

Nice try!
Click to expand...

Exactly. You need to have evidence of the fish, not the fishing. All the things you point out in the prophecy of Cyrus are evidence that the events happened, not that they were prophesied before hand. The Prophecy is what is contested, not the events.
 
SMOGZINN said:
Exactly. You need to have evidence of the fish, not the fishing. All the things you point out in the prophecy of Cyrus are evidence that the events happened, not that they were prophesied before hand. The Prophecy is what is contested, not the events.
Click to expand...

Lol you're the one who made a bad analogy that I cleaned up for you.
 
Charles Kozierok said:
I didn't make up the terms I am using; they are commonplace. This is a good overview, using slightly different but similar terminology.

There is indeed a difference between saying "I don't believe in gods because there's no evidence they exist" and saying "I believe gods do not exist".
Click to expand...

I never said there wasn't a difference. I have ever only and repeatedly said that you definition of atheism is incorrect, popular as it may be. The first statement is agnostic.
 
waggy said:
lol

take out all the stuff about miracles etc. the bible is a collection of history and places. I am sure you understand that right?
Click to expand...

No, sir.

I believe certain books deal in some kind of historical record, but given numerous revisions and translations I believe little of what's in that book resembles anything that ever actually happened.

It'd be like if 2000 years from now people picked up the collected works of Jon Bon Jovi and tried to divine what we were doing now. The legends of the steel horses would grow and grow! We lived on prayers!

But you are the one putting forth that the bible is just chock full of facts, so if you could provide just a short list that would be great. Thanks!
 
waggy said:
lol

take out all the stuff about miracles etc. the bible is a collection of history and places. I am sure you understand that right?
Click to expand...

No!

I have asked you to do the same. List some facts. Convince me.

You are treating this as if it's common knowledge, but in a fair debate we (all the other debaters) can't surrender you this point unchecked. Back it up.
 
SphinxnihpS said:
I never said there wasn't a difference. I have ever only and repeatedly said that you definition of atheism is incorrect, popular as it may be. The first statement is agnostic.
Click to expand...

Agnosticism is either not knowing if gods exist, or believing that it is unknowable. That is not the same as weak atheism. If you can provide me with references stating otherwise, I'll reconsider my terminology.

Rob, your use of the term "bible-denier" suggests to me that the time I've spent trying to discuss these issues with you reasonably has been a complete waste. I could as easily call you a "Koran denier" or "Zeus denier" or "invisible pink unicorn denier" -- it's pure nonsense.

I don't deny that the bible exists. I also don't deny that Dune exists. That doesn't mean I believe in Noah's ark any more than I believe in giant sandworms.
 
Last edited:
Charles Kozierok said:
Agnosticism is either not knowing if gods exist, or believing that it is unknowable. That is not the same as weak atheism. If you can provide me with references stating otherwise, I'll reconsider my terminology.

Rob, your use of the term "bible-denier" suggests to me that the time I've spent trying to discuss these issues with you reasonably has been a complete waste. I could as easily call you a "Koran denier" or "Zeus denier" or "invisible pink unicorn denier" -- it's pure nonsense.

I don't deny that the bible exists. I also don't deny that Dune exists. That doesn't mean I believe in Noah's ark any more than I believe in giant sandworms.
Click to expand...

No, if I thought it was a waste, I would have never engaged you it.

It's been enlightening, forcing me to do research. Better term would be prophecy deniers?? ...or simply non-believers.
 
Charles Kozierok said:
Agnosticism is either not knowing if gods exist, or believing that it is unknowable. That is not the same as weak atheism. If you can provide me with references stating otherwise, I'll reconsider my terminology.

Rob, your use of the term "bible-denier" suggests to me that the time I've spent trying to discuss these issues with you reasonably has been a complete waste. I could as easily call you a "Koran denier" or "Zeus denier" or "invisible pink unicorn denier" -- it's pure nonsense.

I don't deny that the bible exists. I also don't deny that Dune exists. That doesn't mean I believe in Noah's ark any more than I believe in giant sandworms.
Click to expand...

Dear sir, you need only watch the documentary series "Tremors parts 1-4" to see them for yourself.

Seriously though, I don't even see how this is a discussion. It's ALWAYS on the person making a claim to prove that claim.
As my religious studies professor said in college "there is no proof for the existence of God, that's why it's called faith."
 
Soundmanred said:
Dear sir, you need only watch the documentary series "Tremors parts 1-4" to see them for yourself.

Seriously though, I don't even see how this is a discussion. It's ALWAYS on the person making a claim to prove that claim.
As my religious studies professor said in college "there is no proof for the existence of God, that's why it's called faith."
Click to expand...

I have faith the sun will rise tomorrow.

Is faith belief without proof now? The most inaccurate definition I've ever heard.
 
Rob M. said:
No, if I thought it was a waste, I would have never engaged you it.

It's been enlightening, forcing me to do research. Better term would be prophecy deniers?? ...or simply non-believers.
Click to expand...

Heathen is the term you are looking for, because it's obviously not atheist.

It's also obvious your motives were ulterior to your stated goals in the OP. In other words, you're just trolling.

Thanks for wasting my time as well. It's so nice to have a forum where I don't have to deal with this kind of nonsense...
 
Last edited:
Rob M. said:
I have faith the sun will rise tomorrow.

Is faith belief without proof now? The most inaccurate definition I've ever heard.
Click to expand...

You don't have faith in the sun rising. Or if you do, you are pretty actively ignorant at this point.

You believe the Earth will continue to rotate and reveal the sun again tomorrow.

Science has no use for faith, only observation from the best perspective available.
 
SphinxnihpS said:
Finally, I have already pointed out that you are arguing against atheists when there are numerous theist groups we could list that would argue against the validity of the Bible, so clearly either atheists are not your problem, or your problem with them is not limited to their arguments against the Bible.
Click to expand...

This thread isn't about theists veiws on it, since the most opposition doesn't come from them.

Secondly, this is definitely an emotional topic. No doubt I can do a better job of curtailing them -- no doubt about it.
 
Rob M. said:
I have faith the sun will rise tomorrow.

Is faith belief without proof now? The most inaccurate definition I've ever heard.
Click to expand...

The sun will not rise tomorrow. The Earth will spin on its axis making the sun visible from your vantage point. You hope you will see the sun tomorrow.
 
jackstar7 said:
You don't have faith in the sun rising. Or if you do, you are pretty actively ignorant at this point.

You believe the Earth will continue to rotate and reveal the sun again tomorrow.

Science has no use for faith, only observation from the best perspective available.
Click to expand...

No - I was helping you to realize how asinine it is to narrowly define a word to castigate a group of people.
 
Rob M. said:
Of course, but we can't "see" tomorrow's events. That's the difference.
Click to expand...

I don't think I understand either. It seems your definition is so broad as to encompass everything. Can you name some some knowledge for me that is NOT based on faith?
 
Rob M. said:
So you have nothing to argue against it, right?

Nothing hard, concrete. I didn't expect you to. All "ifs and "guesswork".
Click to expand...

I think you missed the whole point of this thread. I don't need any proof, you do.

You need to prove the timing of the prophecy or it's no prophecy at all. You can't. End of story.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

TRENDING THREADS

Back
Top