Understand what I said.
Scientists: evolution is pretty much fact.
Theist: We have a Designer, which is pretty much fact.
Im not debating how ether arrived at their claims, but the fact the claim is made.
and guess which one has the evidence and is testable to even actually come to the conclusion that it is 'fact'?
To say believers arrive at their conclusion void of evidence is completely irratonal, well, believers like myself anyway.
it's actually very rational, its called indoctrination, it happens to many people, myself included
As we've discussed about the prophecy, with all the details that are historical facts, I have little doubt it was prophesied.
as I've said before, having a fact does not validate or reinforce an adjoining extraordinary claim
I don't need to have seen it (much like scientists don't need to see a an animal evolving into a human) to believe it
it is
not much like who scientists don't need to see an animal evolving into a human because have evidence for it such as DNA and of course we can "see" it through transitional forms in the fossil record
all the events taking place is strong evidence. The fact that they're in secular history carries weight because no one can say its only in the Bible.
again, it doesn't carry any weight, because anyone can just write down something factual whenever then want and then combine it with something that isn't factual, joining the two doesn't add any truth to the fabrication
As far as it being actually foretold, well, I rely on the dating of the text instead of the criteria put forth in this thread needed to constitute a foretelling. In other words, the people who study the writings and date them have valid criteria -- all you (generic) have is conjecture.
not conjecture, reasoned skepticism
the major problem with these prophesies is that they're typically not specific enough to rule out their fulfillment by natural causes. I can make a "prophesy" today that a certain land will be destroyed and it will eventually come true whether it be by tectonic processes, astronomical, man made, or even by the sun entering its red giant phase. Without a how and when my prophesy doesn't hold much weight as far as me being tapped into anything specia and it certainly doesn't infer divine intervention. And then there's also the potential for the prophesy to come true based on the fact that it was made in the first place, for if people know of the prophesy they can work towards fulfilling it.
To say that the conclusion I've arrived completely lacks evidence is asinine.
except you (or, to be fair, any theist) have yet to provide any viable evidence...
I think there is a lot of truth to this. I'd only point out that it's unfair to compare a 'scientific minded' atheist (as opposed to the normal majority complete with agendas like everyone else) to a broad stroke 'theist' who goes against reason (as defined by who), instead of against a 'scientific minded' theist.
The merit and power of science is that it's SUPPOSED to be challenged. That is the very core of it. Predetermined answers are also part of it, they're called 'theories'. The problem, for both sides, is not letting their theories be challenged.
no, the problem is that those who challenge science don't understand what they're doing; there are multiple definitions of 'theory'; when we talk about a scientific theory, it is synonymous with words like 'principle', 'law', 'doctrine', whereas the challengers make the mistake (or even do so intentionally in order to demean its value) of equating it to an alternative definition that is more synonymous with 'idea', 'notion', 'hypothesis', 'postulate', or 'guess'
Basically when an idea reaches the point of scientific theory it is considered as the most reliable, rigorous, and comprehensive form of scientific knowledge, ie the furthest thing from a speculative guess.
also, science is not against change or challenge, for science is only ever about trying to better our understanding; the person who can actually provide the evidence that turns our understanding of a 'theory' like gravity on its head isn't going to be rejected and squelched, they are going to be a lock for a Nobel Prize
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