Bulk/Cut cycle

[HomerX]

Hi!

I discovered this forum a few months ago and since then i´m a daily reader!

Personally, i´m working out since i`m 18 (28 now) but mainly for aesthetic reasons. A lot of BW training and some barbell/dumbbell training.
My height is 175cm ( ca 5'9" i guess... i´m from germany so i have no experience in feet inches etc) and i`m weighing 70kg (154lbs)

I used to do sets with high reps and low weight in order to get a well defined Body, but now i decided to gain some more muscle mass...

I increased the weight and lowered the reps to ~5 and i know that i have to eat big to gain weight...

And here is my problem: I hate getting "fat"

I know the best would probably be to bulk a month or two and the cut the body fat. A clean Bulk is always a possibility but really really slow...

So what happens if i reduce the Bulk/cut cycle from 1 month to a day or two?
Eating 3000-4000 calories for two days and then cutting down to 1500 calories for another two days...
The goal is to build up mostly lean muscle mass.

Would this "diet" be successful? Is there an minimum time you have to bulk in order to see results?
If so what would be the minimum time? A Week?

I guess that this method would be slower than a longer bulk/cut cycle but faster then a clean bulk.

Any Ideas?

 

[darkxshade]

Not my expertise but I'm going to throw out my assumption/conclusion on what you're trying to do because I've thought of that myself at one point or another...

It's not going to work on several levels... that or it'll be even slower than a clean bulk.

1. Your body needs time to grow... if 2000 calories is maintenance, eating 3000 for 2 days and 1000 the next 2 does not mean you bulked 2000 calories and cut 2000. Time in days is only a measurement that we use to determine the level of caloric intake to achieve a goal in the long term. 2 days isn't enough for the body to "realize" what you're doing... you have to constantly eat over caloric intake for it to jumpstart the weight gain and vice versa.

2. It's slower than a clean bulk because at lower bodyfat percentages, your body tends to try harder to hold into fat. When I was 200 lbs @ >20%bodyfat, it only took a couple of months to lose the first 5%, it took me another 6 months to lose another 3%[I wasn't on a bulk/cut cycle, I was just fat and decided to lose weight but the point still stands]. So it makes sense to bulk a lot first because the beginning of a cut is easier when your fat is higher.

3. Your idea is more work than you think. It's easy to find out your maintenance level and tack on a % and eat that everyday for a few months and then recalc your maintain and eat a % under because there's room for error[meaning if one day during your cut you ate over, it doesn't affect you that much so long as you stick with your plan]. Doing it with 2days on 2 days off would mean you have to be very meticulous and careful with your measurements *everyday*.

 

[SociallyChallenged]

Hi!

I discovered this forum a few months ago and since then i´m a daily reader!

Personally, i´m working out since i`m 18 (28 now) but mainly for aesthetic reasons. A lot of BW training and some barbell/dumbbell training.
My height is 175cm ( ca 5'9" i guess... i´m from germany so i have no experience in feet inches etc) and i`m weighing 70kg (154lbs)

I used to do sets with high reps and low weight in order to get a well defined Body, but now i decided to gain some more muscle mass...

I increased the weight and lowered the reps to ~5 and i know that i have to eat big to gain weight...

And here is my problem: I hate getting "fat"

I know the best would probably be to bulk a month or two and the cut the body fat. A clean Bulk is always a possibility but really really slow...

So what happens if i reduce the Bulk/cut cycle from 1 month to a day or two?
Eating 3000-4000 calories for two days and then cutting down to 1500 calories for another two days...
The goal is to build up mostly lean muscle mass.

Would this "diet" be successful? Is there an minimum time you have to bulk in order to see results?
If so what would be the minimum time? A Week?

I guess that this method would be slower than a longer bulk/cut cycle but faster then a clean bulk.

Any Ideas?

This is a good question since I know a lot people who lift primarily for aesthetics dislike the fat that comes with bulking. However, recovery doesn't work like that. From a single workout, the body may have to repair itself for up to a week or more. While bulking, you continually supply a surplus of calories and protein to allow your body to recover well. However, if you cut the building blocks of building muscle just two days into recovery, your results will likely be minimal. Hypertrophy pathways are stimulated by excess caloric intake and loading of the muscle. If you cut your calories down, you're also yo-yoing the hypertrophy pathways (mTOR/akt for anyone who's interested) on and off. It's not an optimal situation and a bulk/cut cycle would be more beneficial. If you're skinny now, bulking for 10 weeks won't actually make you look or feel fat. You can put cut cycles in between small bulking cycles, but the cycles should be for several weeks at least (I'd suggest at least 5 weeks).

 

[HomerX]

1. Your body needs time to grow... if 2000 calories is maintenance, eating 3000 for 2 days and 1000 the next 2 does not mean you bulked 2000 calories and cut 2000. Time in days is only a measurement that we use to determine the level of caloric intake to achieve a goal in the long term. 2 days isn't enough for the body to "realize" what you're doing... you have to constantly eat over caloric intake for it to jumpstart the weight gain and vice versa.

But what happens to the 2000 extra calories i eat during the first 2 days?

If i dont burn them, the Body stores them as fat and builds up muscle mass because, i´m constantly working out..
I mean the Body has to do SOMETHING with the extra calories.. or?

So the Body builds up fat/muscle mass for 2 Days and then i cut the intake and for the next two days the body has to burn fat (and probably muscle mass.. but hopefully less than gained before :\) in order to provide the needed energy.

At least this is the theory ^^

If there is a "minimum response time" of the Body, how long would that be?

3. Your idea is more work than you think. It's easy to find out your maintenance level and tack on a % and eat that everyday for a few months and then recalc your maintain and eat a % under because there's room for error[meaning if one day during your cut you ate over, it doesn't affect you that much so long as you stick with your plan]. Doing it with 2days on 2 days off would mean you have to be very meticulous and careful with your measurements *everyday*.

I wouldn´t be counting exact calories per day...
i would eat a few days as much as i can (3500+ should be possible) and if i feel too "fat" i would cut down a few days (probably to ~1500-2000).. the two day cycle is just an example... in reality it could be a 4 day Bulk + 3 Day Cut cycle etc...


@SC

damn, i´m lost... ^^

So i will probably have to start a 4-5 Week bulk period...

 

[crt1530]

Gaining muscle and getting stronger takes time.

 

[darkxshade]

But what happens to the 2000 extra calories i eat during the first 2 days?

You're thinking in terms of days again. Your body doesn't work in such small time increments. Just to put it into perspective, what if instead of eating 3000 calories for 2 days you just ate 6000 calories in one meal and starve yourself for 2 days and then eat 2000 calories on the 4th day. By your argument, that would work too wouldn't it? But I guarantee you that it wouldn't.

 

[HomerX]

Gaining muscle and getting stronger takes time.

I have no problem with dedicating a lot of time to my workout nor do i expect results in a few days...
I search a way to build up as much muscle mass as possible while building up only minimal body fat.

In order to achive this i thought about experimenting with the cycle time of bulking/cutting...

but ist seems that a very fast cycle is not possible.

 

[MetalMat]

I have no problem with dedicating a lot of time to my workout nor do i expect results in a few days...
I search a way to build up as much muscle mass as possible while building up only minimal body fat.

In order to achive this i thought about experimenting with the cycle time of bulking/cutting...

but ist seems that a very fast cycle is not possible.

Yeah, unless you are using PH or steroids it always takes a while.

 

[HomerX]

You're thinking in terms of days again. Your body doesn't work in such small time increments. Just to put it into perspective, what if instead of eating 3000 calories for 2 days you just ate 6000 calories in one meal and starve yourself for 2 days and then eat 2000 calories on the 4th day. By your argument, that would work too wouldn't it? But I guarantee you that it wouldn't.

i have no doubt that this wouldn´t work... but i´m curious what would happen with the extra calories you eat during the first day? how long is the body able to "store" the energy before he has to build up fat or muscle mass?
If you eat 6000 calories during a very short amount of time how long will it take before you build up fat, assuming you are not burning all 6000 calories during an insane workout ?

 

[alkemyst]

i have no doubt that this wouldn´t work... but i´m curious what would happen with the extra calories you eat during the first day? how long is the body able to "store" the energy before he has to build up fat or muscle mass?
If you eat 6000 calories during a very short amount of time how long will it take before you build up fat, assuming you are not burning all 6000 calories during an insane workout ?

1) I think you have another account here just coming to ATHF for such a ridiculous post that you believe you are right on.

2) What workout do you know of that can burn 6000 calories? Like seriously....

 

[SociallyChallenged]

i have no doubt that this wouldn´t work... but i´m curious what would happen with the extra calories you eat during the first day? how long is the body able to "store" the energy before he has to build up fat or muscle mass?
If you eat 6000 calories during a very short amount of time how long will it take before you build up fat, assuming you are not burning all 6000 calories during an insane workout ?

The body nearly immediately does something with metabolized nutrients. First, it lets a certain amount and fatty acids into the bloodstream. When sufficient levels are maintained there, the body begins storing them as glycogen and fat. This is why people don't eat 6,000 calorie meals, especially while bulking. Most people eat 3-6 (800-1500 calories) meals while bulking, giving sufficient intervals of calories to the body. The body can only repair itself so fast. Because of this, eating multiple times is beneficial so as to limit the amount of calories that goes toward fat deposit. You're overthinking the whole process of gaining weight though. If you eat 4k calories over 3-6 meals while lifting heavy, you will gain a ton of muscle. You will gain some fat. That's how it goes. Cut afterward and everything will be ok.

 

[HomerX]

1) I think you have another account here just coming to ATHF for such a ridiculous post that you believe you are right on.

No i have no other account... Why? Because i only have a few posts?

And probably my english is not good enough or you misread my post.. I do NOT believe that eating 6000 calories in one meal and then eating nothing for two days will be good for building up muscle mass and your health...

I was interested in the minimum time a bulk period should last in order to be effective... The 6k calories a day was just an exaggerated example because i was curious what would happen in the Body.

2) What workout do you know of that can burn 6000 calories? Like seriously....

If you are not able to burn 6k calories in a workout you aren´t doing it right!

No seriously, have you detected the smiley in my post behind the 6k workout?

 

[SociallyChallenged]

No i have no other account... Why? Because i only have a few posts?

And probably my english is not good enough or you misread my post.. I do NOT believe that eating 6000 calories in one meal and then eating nothing for two days will be good for building up muscle mass and your health...

I was interested in the minimum time a bulk period should last in order to be effective... The 6k calories a day was just an exaggerated example because i was curious what would happen in the Body.



If you are not able to burn 6k calories in a workout you aren´t doing it right!

No seriously, have you detected the smiley in my post behind the 6k workout?

Don't mind him.

 

[alkemyst]

Don't mind him.

?

Sorry i didn't take the as sarcasm, I took it as with the rest of his post that he thinks 6k calorie workouts are possible.

I can't say I never spoke with someone directly that thought working a desk job had them burning 3-4k calories per day.

 

[Koing]

When bulking make sure your gaining weight but look in the mirror to see your fat levels. If your gaining too much fat your eating too many carbs/ too much junk food mate.

If your not gaining any muscle mass your either not eating enough protein or carbs. Remember if you eat high protein but with little carbs your body will start hacking in to the protein for energy instead of using it for repair. Protein isn't as efficient as carbs for energy.

Limit carb intake to around training time. Avoid after 7pm or so.

You HAVE TO TRACK YOUR RESULTS. I find that most people FAIL HORRIBLY at this. They don't know what they weigh from day to day are are sloppy with it.

I can gain weight relatively easy now that I'm 26. Add in an extra meal or two. Want to lean down? I lay off the creatine/ cut the carbs do some more cv. Easy. I don't tend to gain weight for more then 2-3months at a time as by that time I'm fed up of eating the extra 1-2 meals personally.

In 10yrs of training you should be pretty well up there for your ideal physique imo bar any crazy injuries and such stopping you training in the 10yrs.

Educate yourself and hit the gym!

Koing

 

[alkemyst]

Limit carb intake to around training time. Avoid after 7pm or so.

And if bulking don't forget a good protein meal prior to bed. Casein shake or cottage cheese are excellent.

Many hard gainers force themselves up about 1/2 way through sleep for another 'dose'. Personally I am not sure if this works against them in a bit by breaking up the sleep that's supposed to be rebuilding them.

I think being a hard gainer is a lot more of a bitch than one that has to watch their diet.

 

[KoolDrew]

I've seen many people be very successful with EOD refeeds for body recomposition (gaining muscle while losing fat), but it's a slow approach. I've even done them myself, but my main goal was leaning out so by weekly caloric intake was below maintenance. If you're goal is mainly to increase lean body mass while minimizing fat gain it can still be done, but I wouldn't suggest bringing calories below maintenance on resting days. You're best bet would be a surplus ont raining days and eating at maintenance on non-training days.

At your weight, assuming your maintenance is around 15 cal/lb I would suggest around 2300 on non-training days and 2800-3000 on training days, with the biggest meals being post workout. The important thing is that your weekly intake exceeds your maintenance requirements, but not by too much. If your goal is to limit fat gains, it would be wise to gain weight at a slower pace, perhaps an average of 0.5-1lb a week. Since activity levels and individual factors will effect your expenditure, those values should only be used as a starting point and should be adjusted accordingly. Following this with a 500-800 kcal surplus on training days you'd be 1500-3200 kcal above maintenance depending on whether you were following a 3 or 4-day split. Also, make sure protein is at least 1 gram per pound of bodyweight.

Beyond protein requirements and essential fats, the rest should be filled with mainly carbs. The important thing when trying to gain mass while limiting fat gain is keeping the surplus reasonable. However, I've found small surpluses on a day-to-day basis don't work nearly as well. Some extra activity for that day and what you thought was a 200 kcal surplus is no longer a surplus, and this is definitely something that should be taken into consideration. Calorie expenditure is not a constant variable and will vary from day to day.

Also, I would like to mention while you're goal is to limit fat gains, you are still going to see better gains in lean body mass if you allow at least a small gain in fat to occur. This doesn't mean you should become a total fat ass just to get bigger muscles, but don't be afraid of a little fat gain, you can always lean out later. Just keep everything reasonable.