Building new machine (been a long time) help appreciated.

[maximum3d]

Its been quite a while since I built a machine myself. I always try to stay abreast of new PC tech so I am never far behind. However, even with researching DDR3 machines (which I intend to build) I just want to be sure the machine I am putting together is going to work properly before I buy the parts. Also if anyone can shed insight on tips and tricks I would appreciate that as well. (For example found out DDR3 core voltages need a lil boost since they default to lower voltages and give you boot up problems. Also the way cpu heat sinks attach to motherboards now is different from what I remember last time I did this. So tips on mounting the after market heat sink safely is appreciated too)

I created a public wishlist on newegg with all the parts I am going to buy
Click here for newegg wishlist link

It seems DDR3 1333 ram (which is the ram I want to buy) is very hard to get a hold of right now its out of stock a lot of places. I have long been a Corsair fan over the years. However, it seems all the CAS timings of DDR3 ram is very poor right now. I noticed OCZ Platinum (Link Here) has atleast a somewhat good price along with a somewhat ok CAS timing. Anyone use or vouch for OCZ brand quality. I am apprehensive of that brand.

Thx in advance for any and all feedback and tips!

 

[maximum3d]

Just a little more info if it helps in advising.

I will be using it for gaming and some video/3d work. I know Quad core is future proofed and even though i do run application that can take advantage of it... I am more concerned with price tag... otherwise the top end quad core extreme would be my choice.

I also know ddr3 (right now) isn't to popular among builders from the price to performance aspect. However, I am determined to have a ddr3 1333 machine.

I also want this machine to last me 3-5 years. If need be I want to be able to upgraded to 4 gigs of ram and faster quad core in future. Definitely at very least i will be upgrading video card (probably when nvidia 10 series comes out next year-ish+)

I opted to get this 8800 gt overclocked vs waiting for 9 series since.. the performance of the early 9 series doesn't look all that great and I don't want to wait for 9 series to blossom. Also, direct x 10.1 upgrade doesn't look like it will make its way to game for quite a while. So direct x 10 card will be fine. By the time direct x10.1 is in effect i will be buying a new card (probably by 10 series)

I will be attempting to overclock this machine. Whether or not I keep it overclocked will depend on stability and how far I can push it. (This is why I want the aftermarket heatsink and artic silver)

2000 dollars is my ideal budget for this machine.. and currently I am under that goal.

 

[MarcVenice]

Any real reason for the ddr3 and OVERLY expensive motherboard ? Besides the fact that it offers VERY VERY VERY little bang for buck, and almost NOT susceptable speedboost over ddr2 ram and p35 mobo's, which almost cost a THIRD ? OCZ link ain't working btw, and last but not least, major overkill on the PSU. Best advice I could possible give ? Go with a p35 chipset, asus p5k, abit ip35 pro, gigabute dsq4/6, whatever you fancy, for 100-150$, and buy 2x2gb of ddr2 800mhz for 75$ AR. Oh, and 520hx or so, if you want modular, or 450vx if you want cheap.

All the money saved by not being an idiot and wanting ddr3, and I'm sorry, but that's what you are when I consider your other components, could be put towards a q6600 instead, or a e8400 now, and a q9450 in 2-3 months, and you will still have money left over. Hell, for 2000$ you could build 2 frigging q6600, 8800gt and 4gb of ddr2 rigs.

 

[maximum3d]

If I were to entertain downgrading back to a ddr2 mobo/ram solution. Do you recommend that high speed dominator ram?

I am not set in stone about this. However, the 2 things I am set in stone about are... I want this machine to last up to 5 years (with at least 1 video card change minimum). I also want a 45nm dual/quad core. Outside of that I am flexible. Do you feel a dd2 mobo/ram solution will have that kind of longevity?

Also if ddr3 is bad do you have a few legit links to head to head comparisons of ddr2 vs ddr3 on closely spec'd machines? I read one article in MaximumPC over the holiday that showed a 10% performance gain with a x38 mobo and ddr3 1333 ram vs ddr2 800. Thats a decent performance gain and I'm willing to drop 200 bucks more for it. Especially if that means I can just drop faster CAS timing ddr3 ram in 2-3 years for cheap.. vs having to replace the entire mobo. (which is the core of why I want ddr3)

Originally posted by: MarcVenice
Any real reason for the ddr3 and OVERLY expensive motherboard ? Besides the fact that it offers VERY VERY VERY little bang for buck, and almost NOT susceptable speedboost over ddr2 ram and p35 mobo's, which almost cost a THIRD ? OCZ link ain't working btw, and last but not least, major overkill on the PSU. Best advice I could possible give ? Go with a p35 chipset, asus p5k, abit ip35 pro, gigabute dsq4/6, whatever you fancy, for 100-150$, and buy 2x2gb of ddr2 800mhz for 75$ AR. Oh, and 520hx or so, if you want modular, or 450vx if you want cheap.

All the money saved by not being an idiot and wanting ddr3, and I'm sorry, but that's what you are when I consider your other components, could be put towards a q6600 instead, or a e8400 now, and a q9450 in 2-3 months, and you will still have money left over. Hell, for 2000$ you could build 2 frigging q6600, 8800gt and 4gb of ddr2 rigs.

 

[MarcVenice]

Thing is, you can NOT build a machine right now, that can be upgraded for 5 years. The other thing is, if you spend half now, 1000$, you can spend another 1000$ in 2-3 years, and buy a complete new rig, that's going to be LOTS faster then any 2k rig you could buy now, that's just how it is. I can't say for sure if p35 is going to support Nehalem, or if x38 will, but once again, a p35 mobo now costs 130$ or even less if you look around, a x38 mobo costs 230$, the money saved by buying a p35 mobo can be put towards a new mobo later on, that will support Nehalem, without any doubt, and it will still cost the same, and probably give more performance. The same for the ram, 2gb of ddr3 is going to cost 200$ or so ? By the time you actually NEED it, it will cost half of that, just like ddr2 800mhz 2x2gb costs 75$ right now.

As for wanting faster memory, if you look around on the CPU forum, ram forum etc, using the search function, you'll find threads where people tested for example a q6600 at 9x400 or 8x450, both = 3.6ghz, but the ram runs at 800mhz or at 900mhz. Real world difference ? ~1-2%, negligible at best. Even when overclocking, the ddr2 800mhz ram is going to let you overclock the e8400 to 3.6ghz without overclocking the ram, and most ram will quite easily do another 100mhz, allowing you to run a e8400 at 4.0ghz. What more do you want ? Something like this for example: http://www.newegg.com/Product/...x?Item=N82E16820144064 if you want a little more headroom for overclocking, you could spring a little extra money for: http://www.newegg.com/Product/...x?Item=N82E16820231145

 

[maximum3d]

so if I overclock keep the ram and FSB unlinked? (unlinking wasnt an option last time I built a machine)

also you mentioned overkill on the psu.. but i have had tons of bad experiences with psu's 9even when i give more then enough elbow room) which is why I am going for the best in the best psu brand this time... also I am fan case fan happy.. and will be upgrading the video card to atleast as much as 1 ultra variety in the future (most likely) If I downgraded.. I think 500watt is to low.. you think 600-650 watt range is better?

also is that heatsink i am looking at any good? Looks like it gets good reviews but the design looks troublesome the way most mobos these days have heatpipes running every which way around the cpu socket.

I have looked into p35 option prior to posting here.. have been goin back and forth on this ddr2 vs ddr3 topic for 3 weeks now. This was the Asus P5K deluxe mobo I was looking at getting. http://www.newegg.com/Product/...x?Item=N82E16813131182

any recommendations on the best CAS timing ddr2 800 corsair ram?

PS:
One advantage of goin to ddr2 setup.. I could easily afford a 45nm quad core extreme.

Originally posted by: MarcVenice
Thing is, you can NOT build a machine right now, that can be upgraded for 5 years. The other thing is, if you spend half now, 1000$, you can spend another 1000$ in 2-3 years, and buy a complete new rig, that's going to be LOTS faster then any 2k rig you could buy now, that's just how it is. I can't say for sure if p35 is going to support Nehalem, or if x38 will, but once again, a p35 mobo now costs 130$ or even less if you look around, a x38 mobo costs 230$, the money saved by buying a p35 mobo can be put towards a new mobo later on, that will support Nehalem, without any doubt, and it will still cost the same, and probably give more performance. The same for the ram, 2gb of ddr3 is going to cost 200$ or so ? By the time you actually NEED it, it will cost half of that, just like ddr2 800mhz 2x2gb costs 75$ right now.

As for wanting faster memory, if you look around on the CPU forum, ram forum etc, using the search function, you'll find threads where people tested for example a q6600 at 9x400 or 8x450, both = 3.6ghz, but the ram runs at 800mhz or at 900mhz. Real world difference ? ~1-2%, negligible at best. Even when overclocking, the ddr2 800mhz ram is going to let you overclock the e8400 to 3.6ghz without overclocking the ram, and most ram will quite easily do another 100mhz, allowing you to run a e8400 at 4.0ghz. What more do you want ? Something like this for example: http://www.newegg.com/Product/...x?Item=N82E16820144064 if you want a little more headroom for overclocking, you could spring a little extra money for: http://www.newegg.com/Product/...x?Item=N82E16820231145

 

[MarcVenice]

Well, the lowest multiplier p35 has is 2. Meaning if your FSB is 333, your ram will run at 667mhz. So you can jack up the FSB to 400, and your ram will run at 800mhz. Hope that makes sense. As for the PSU, a good 500w unit is allready overkill, hence I suggested the 520hx. A little more elbowroom for future upgrades isn't necesarily a bad thing though, look at the second post I made in this thread: http://forums.anandtech.com/me...=2145261&enterthread=y and notice the 520hx, the 750tx, or the coolermaster real power pro, 650w for 50$ AR. I know it sounds to good to be true, but the coolermaster real power pro is a qaulity PSU. The heatsink is just fine, it's a good bang for buck cooler and will allow a good overclock, probably even up to 4.0ghz. Installing it will be easy. Once you get to the bigger HSF, like the tuniq tower 120 and the thermalright 120 ultra extreme, you will run into trouble with certain cases and motherboard clearances.

The asus p5k deluxe is still a bit pricey for me, but if you need the wifi, the 6 sata ports and the firewire, go for it I guess. Or look into the abit ip35 pro, which had a rebate on it not long ago. As for cas timings, 4-4-4-12, or 5-5-5-15, don't wory about it, the difference between 4-4-4-12 and 5-5-5-15 is once again, negligible.

 

[maximum3d]

Originally posted by: MarcVenice
Well, the lowest multiplier p35 has is 2. Meaning if your FSB is 333, your ram will run at 667mhz. So you can jack up the FSB to 400, and your ram will run at 800mhz. Hope that makes sense. As for the PSU, a good 500w unit is allready overkill, hence I suggested the 520hx. A little more elbowroom for future upgrades isn't necesarily a bad thing though, look at the second post I made in this thread: http://forums.anandtech.com/me...=2145261&enterthread=y and notice the 520hx, the 750tx, or the coolermaster real power pro, 650w for 50$ AR. I know it sounds to good to be true, but the coolermaster real power pro is a qaulity PSU. The heatsink is just fine, it's a good bang for buck cooler and will allow a good overclock, probably even up to 4.0ghz. Installing it will be easy. Once you get to the bigger HSF, like the tuniq tower 120 and the thermalright 120 ultra extreme, you will run into trouble with certain cases and motherboard clearances.

The asus p5k deluxe is still a bit pricey for me, but if you need the wifi, the 6 sata ports and the firewire, go for it I guess. Or look into the abit ip35 pro, which had a rebate on it not long ago. As for cas timings, 4-4-4-12, or 5-5-5-15, don't wory about it, the difference between 4-4-4-12 and 5-5-5-15 is once again, negligible.

I undersand the FSB settings you mentioned form overclocking back in the day.. thankfully new intels still using old school FSB so it sounds like it will be a walk in the park with gettin up to speed overclocking / and setting up.

appreciate advice on ram cas timings.

I am very very very ANTI abit motherboard.. worst pc build experience of my life was on a abit mobo .. capacitors started to swell up after a period of time.. also had these stupid IRQ issues that drove me nutz its whole life span. (i know results vary on abit like all brands.. but i am an asus fan) I know asus is just another company and from what i seen in recent years asus has slipped a lil bit from perfection status.. down to a level thats on par with most others.. where they ship failed units and botchy bios revisions. But atleast the p35 is old at this point...so im sure the mobo and bios is highly revised at this point. I also do want the wifi built in which is reason i want it.

how do u mount the heatsinks these days? i remember the older heatsink installation when you had to seat gripping teeth on back side of socket and get a screw driver and press down the clip on the opposite side of the cpu socket until it clipped down.. used to be the worst part of building the machine.. since u could crack the cpu or mobo socket.. or slip off and stab the mobo (i used to use a credit card underneath to reduce risk)... it looks like these new heatsinks mounts have 4 screws that go top down into the mobo? do they grip a nut underneath (what do they grip into)? whats the risk with these newer designs of cracking the cpu/mobo socket now when you mount heatsinks? How do you know when you are done screwing down the heatsink, so you dont overdo it with this new design, do they have a measured amount of screw down to prevent that? Heatsink installation tips will be greatly appreciated.. its my most apprehensive part of this build since its a new design i don't know.

 

[carmat4]

THis was a helpful post. Im also trying to build a new system. I built my main machine two yrs ago and it needs upgrading. Build a lesser machine 6 months ago, but its like night and day compared to my current system. I do need something powerful for gaming and some photo editing.. I would just have bookmarked this thread but didnt know how..?

 

[chuckm]

Just my own thoughts on ddr3. Wait for the new Intel platform at the end of the year. I really think they're readying ddr3 for then, it's not worth it now. Marc has covered what you need to know for now, if you can't wait go P35/ddr2.

 

[MarcVenice]

Hmmm, I've got a arctic freezer 64 pro myself, the AMD version of the arctic freezer 7 pro, and it's a pushpin construction, quite easy to install, but some people SWEAR by backplates. Hop over to the cases & cooling forum and ask your question there. I'm not to experienced with backplates, but the basic idea is yhat you screw them onto the motherboard, without risk of cracking the motherboard, and since some heatsinks are so darned heavy, a backplate is in fact recommended, then you screw the heatsink onto the backplate. That's all I can really tell you, if you need to know more, ask on the other forum.

 

[Roguestar]

Actually most of what I'd say in this thread has already been covered by MarcVenice.

OP: If you're hugely against ABit, then have a look at the Gigabyte P35-DS3L.

 

[maximum3d]

Thank you everyone for helping me out with this info. It gave me more stuff to think about.

I was also considering running Vista 64 bit. I have been very anti 64 bit for a while now (and not thrilled about the idea of vista outside of direct x10 capability) but does anyone see a problem running 64 bit vista as my primary (solitary OS)?

If worst comes to worst ill run xp 32/vista 64 dual boot setup.

I will have zero problems running 32 bit apps in a 64 bit OS correct? I know plenty of games out there dont come in the 64 bit persuasion. Anyone have any bad experiences multitasking 64 bit and 32 bit apps at the same time.. or runnin 32 bit apps (i know 16 bit old school apps will be an issue.. but when I need to run old software, like special diagnostic/maintenance tools I go to DOS anyway)

 

[MarcVenice]

I don't have any problems running games or applications in Vista 64x. Video/3d work will also benefit greatly from any extra ram you give it, so for you Vista 64x is really recommended. Yes, it used to suck, with very little support, but nowadays I'd dare say the support for Vista 64x is as good as for Vista 32x.

 

[maximum3d]

Ok thats great to hear I will be getting vista 64 bit as my primary OS then. I also agree accessing more ram and for apps like 64 bit version of 3d software.. it will be great and preferred for me.

Originally posted by: MarcVenice
I don't have any problems running games or applications in Vista 64x. Video/3d work will also benefit greatly from any extra ram you give it, so for you Vista 64x is really recommended. Yes, it used to suck, with very little support, but nowadays I'd dare say the support for Vista 64x is as good as for Vista 32x.

 

[Roguestar]

I've been using Vista x64 for 9 months now and I've had no problems at all with drivers or whatever.