Building a new PC.

[ZzZGuy]

In case you reconize me from here, I had said I was going to build a new PC 7 to 12 months down the road but I got a unexpected bonu$ from work (and laptop faster then my desktop) so I'll be building in the next week or two.

And here it is on paper.

CPU - AMD Phenom X4 9950 Black Edition (will be OCing) http://www.ncix.com/products/index.php?sku=33378
GPU - HIS Radeon HD 4870 Turbo (Two in crossfire) http://www.ncix.com/products/index.php?sku=33392
MoBo - ASUS M3A32-MVP Deluxe http://www.ncix.com/products/index.php?sku=29219
RAM - OCZ Flex XLC DDR2 PC2-9600 (2 GB) http://www.ncix.com/products/index.php?sku=24053
PSU - Enermax Galaxy Dxx 1000W http://www.ncix.com/products/index.php?sku=26291
LCD - Samsung 2443BW-HAS 24IN http://www.ncix.com/products/index.php?sku=32738
HD - (Two in Raid 0) Western Digital Caviar SATA II 250GB (Using this from my old PC)
Sound Card - Creative Labs SB X-FI Titanium Fatal1ty Champ PCIe http://www.ncix.com/products/i...acture=Creative%20Labs

It's as future proof as I can make it (MoBo apparently will be compatible with next gen AMD chips with a BIOS update). MoBo, case, PSU and sound card all (hopefully) reusable in next build. And yes I know that this can all go out the window with a announcement of a new whatever as I'm typing this very post.


There are currently two -edit- make that three- decisions I can't make my mind up on yet.

1- What case. My goal is to have a near silent case at Idle with enough cooling for some OCing. I will get my near silent case with good cooling even if I have to venture into water/refrigeration cooling but good old air cooling would be VERY nice (and cheaper as this build is pushing my budget).

The P-182 is my top choice but from what I've read it will require some modification to improve airflow and I don't know what this will do to the sound damping performance of the case.

I will replace all stock case fans on any case with Slip Stream fans unless anyone is aware of better ones.(I'll work out RPM later).

2- No matter what case I get I would like to have all the fans in the case respond automatically to the heat leaves in the case. This removes the need to manually adjust the fan speed every time I want to quiet the system. Just remembered this but it's last and it'll be tomorrow before I begin to look into this.

3- What CPU after market heat sink, if any. From what I've read and been told the CPU shown above is easy to OC without many heat issues. Though I may replace it anyway with a quieter one if the stock fan noise is to high.


So, thoughts... help... criticism?

And a big thanks to my friend who helped me with building this (on paper) in case he ever reads these forums.

-edit- Still need too look into Xp Pro 64 bit, in which case I'll get 4 GB of ram. -edit-

-edit again- I will go and look up each case recommended in sao123's thread http://forums.anandtech.com/me...=2242400&enterthread=y WHEN I wake up tomorrow. Making a thread like this also helps work through the build in my head as you will notice with all the edits.

 

[mpilchfamily]

If you want future proof then you should wait till Intel's new CPU is released. With the new CPU comes a new socket which is long overduwe for Intel. Either way the most future proof CPU now is Intell. AMD just can't keep up with the performance of Intel.

If you want the case fans to adjust to temps then you'll need to find a fan controler that acomidate that.

You won't be able to get any flavor of XP. Vista is all that is sold now.

 

[disports]

Yeah you might as well go for Vista 64 bit. P182 is reasonably silent.

 

[DSF]

Phenoms are currently outperformed by any Intel quad core processor. In gaming, where extra cores generally aren't utilized, even the majority of Intel dual cores are as fast as that Phenom. There's no sense in buying an inferior processor now based on what might come in the future.

If you're going to buy two 4870s, why not just get a single 4870x2 and save quite a bit of money on the motherboard?

DDR2-1200 is just plain unnecessary. DDR2-800 will cost considerably less. In the near future I'd rather have 4GB DDR2-800 than 2GB DDR2-1200.

You don't need a 1kW PSU. You could safely step down to something like the Corsair 750TX and save over 100 CAD.

 

[Zap]

Originally posted by: ZzZGuy
It's as future proof as I can make it (MoBo apparently will be compatible with next gen AMD chips with a BIOS update). MoBo, case, PSU and sound card all (hopefully) reusable in next build. And yes I know that this can all go out the window with a announcement of a new whatever as I'm typing this very post.

Future proof is a nice concept, but fails in reality. I would not count on future CPU support because all AM2 boards were supposed to be AM2+ (Phenom) capable with a BIOS flash... yeah... Also, whenever stuff like this happens, it won't extract all the performance out of the new chip. For instance with AM2 to AM2+ the HyperTransport bus speed increased... but only if on the + boards and not on original boards flashed to support new chips.

Just build for your current needs.

1) Antec P180 series (and endless variants) are good choices. You may have to remove the middle drive bays to fit the large cards, but they will fit unlike the Antec Solo (which I have, and which I love, and which I'll be replacing this week because it doesn't fit longer video cards). The reason why the P180 is a good choice is soft silicone HDD grommets and vibration dampening panels.

2) You would need either fans with a thermistor or fans plugged into certain motherboard headers that can control fan speed (not all of them do, usually just CPU and one or two aux). Much easier to make it quiet and leave it that way. Your video card choice has rear exhausting solutions, so they won't dump as much heat into the case. I would just stick with the Antec Tri Cool fans that come with the case and set them on low.

3) You will want a "tower" style heatsink with a bunch of heatpipes. My favorite for silence is the Scythe Ninja (SCNJ1000 or something), though a couple other companies such as Cooler Master make similar units. These are big with lots of heatpipes and widely spaced fins. That is important for either running them passive, or with very low air flow. With that being said, most "tower heatpipe" style units will do a good job cooling with minimal noise.

Get the 4GB RAM (why not? so cheap!) but go with Vista 64 bit. Even if you hate Vista, IMO it is better than XP 64 and will be much better supported. Heck, you can turn Vista virtually into XP... disable UAC, set interface to classic... voila!

I would wait the couple of weeks for Core i7 to come out... just to see if any prices change. Then, I'd go for an Intel chip. Have to say that Intel CPUs are pretty darn strong compared to AMD chips, and on average overclock better. Even for the mythical "future proofing" a current Intel Yorkdale quadcore (like the Q9550) will probably be very competitive against even the next generation AMD quadcore chips.

 

[ZzZGuy]

Thanks for the advice. I saw the P-182 Special Edition at a computer store cheaper then anywhere online so I have bought that case.

I am going for crossfire of two 4870 turbo's because from my understanding the corssfire software will multithread a game (eg, 50% of the screen handled by one card). The 4870 X2 does not have the feature and requires a game that had multithreading built in which very few do.

I will still have to think about the CPU some more (and thus mobo if I do switch to intel).

I just don't like Vista, I am though intrested to see how the next OS turns out.

I am not sure if having such a HUGE heatsink in the middle of the case is such as good idea. It may not be worth it if it blocks air flow, a louder but smaller heatsink may be better ad the noise can be compensated by lower RPM on the case fans.


There are other things you guys have pointed out that I will look into later and reply when I get the answer.

 

[Zap]

Originally posted by: ZzZGuy
I am going for crossfire of two 4870 turbo's because from my understanding the corssfire software will multithread a game (eg, 50% of the screen handled by one card). The 4870 X2 does not have the feature and requires a game that had multithreading built in which very few do.

I thought multithreading has to do with how many CPU cores it can take advantage of?

When you say 50% of screen handled by one card, you are thinking of SFR (Split Frame Rendering). The alternative is AFR (Alternate Frame Rendering). To my understanding both NVIDIA and ATI support both. With AFR both are the same. WITH SFR they handle it differently, so Crossfire is able to work with mismatched cards while SLI is not. There are benefits to both.

Originally posted by: ZzZGuy
I just don't like Vista, I am though intrested to see how the next OS turns out.

Don't like or hate it. It is just the interface that links your hardware, drivers and software together. If you were to go 32 bit OS, then XP is a great choice. If 64 bit, then IMO Vista has more going for it than XP 64 for software, driver and hardware support.

Originally posted by: ZzZGuy
I am not sure if having such a HUGE heatsink in the middle of the case is such as good idea. It may not be worth it if it blocks air flow, a louder but smaller heatsink may be better ad the noise can be compensated by lower RPM on the case fans.

It will not block airflow because tower heatsinks typically have fins that are parallel to the motherboard and are designed for air to pass right through them. So, don't think of it as:

|
|
|
|_____
|heatsink
|_____
|
|
|
^motherboard

but think of it as:

|
|
|
||||||||
|heatsink
||||||||
|
|
|
^motherboard

 

[Denithor]

You're wrong on the two versus one crossfire.

AT comparison: 4870X2 vs 2x 4870

If you look through that article you'll see clearly that the 4870x2 whips the dual card setup. And uses 10% less power while doing it.

Also note that the card you've chosen only has 512MB video ram so your memory buffer is going to be half what you'll have with a 4870x2 (and that matters only at the higher resolutions, like you expect to play on your nice new 24" 1920x1200 LCD monitor).

Two old hard drives in Raid0 are not going to match the performance of one new Caviar Black alone.

I'll second DSF on the memory & PSU suggestions, go for 4GB DDR2-800 and a 650-750W powersupply.

If you just want an inferior CPU go ahead and get the Phenom X4. But before you do, you might want to review this article at xbitlabs. You'll see that even in games that really support quad-core processors (only UT3 of these tested--the only game where the e8600 didn't dominate) the Phenom loses badly to even the dual-core Intel chips. For that reason I'd suggest a P5Q Pro + e8400. And in a year you can drop in a faster quad for more performance (if you find you need it).

 

[sao123]

not sure what you are plannign to spend... but since you mentioned my thread...

I got all of the following for $1555.36 (including $19.52 shipping)... and still will have an addition $80 in MIR to reduce that price...


1 x ($103.99) CASE ANTEC|P182 BK RT - Retail
1 x ($159.99) PSU TT|W0116RU 750W RT - Retail

1 x ($5.99) CPU THERMPASTE|ARCTIC SILVER5 3.5G% - OEM
1 x ($14.99) FAN SCYTHE|S-FLEX SFF21E(1200rpm) R - Retail
1 x ($25.99) CPU COOL|XIGMATEK HDT-SD964 R - Retail
1 x ($6.99) CPU COOL XIGM|ACK-I7753 R - Retail

1 x ($94.99) SOUND CARD CREATIVE|70SB088000004 R - Retail
1 x ($49.99) MEM 2Gx2|GSK F2-6400CL5D-4GBPQ R - Retail
1 x ($146.99) MB ASUS P5Q-E 775 P45 ICH10R RT - Retail
1 x ($319.99) CPU INTEL|C2Q Q9550 2.83 775 12M R - Retail
1 x ($299.99) VGA EVGA 896-P3-1265-AR GTX260 RT - Retail
1 x ($-60.00) DISCOUNT FOR COMBO #134590 GTX260, W0116RU

2 x ($69.99) HD 500G|ST 7K 32M SATA2 ST3500320AS - OEM
2 x ($99.99) HD 750G|ST ST3750330AS 7K SATA % - OEM
1 x ($25.99) DVD BURN SAMSUNG|SH-S223F 22X BK % - OEM



Take off my 4 hard drives, and get the dual core e8400 instead of the Q9550, you could be building a sweet computer for <$1000

Neweggs combos are the best.

 

[BlueAcolyte]

Well ok, the problems I see here are the RAM, CPU, video card, and sound card.

RAM: There is no reason to get 2GB of RAM for a serious system. RAM speed doesn't make a lot of difference, RAM quantity does. Get 4GB, or maybe 8GB since you want it to be "future-proof." Whatever that means in computers.

CPU: Are you really sure you want a Phenom? They are outrun by Intel's quad-cores and crushed by Nehalem. Since you are building now, I would recommend a Q9400 or probably a Q9550. Couple that with a P43 or P45 board.

Video Card: Why do you want two different HD 4870s? As far as I know the HD 4870x2 should work just as well, and probably better than your setup because it has 2 x 1GB video memory vs. 2 x 512mb, which can start to run out on a 24 inch monitor.

Sound card: I dunno, it's just really expensive. Can't you just see if you like the onboard sound first, then buy?



I want you to reconsider Vista 64 since I seriously recommend 4GB of memory or more. It's pretty, it's secure, it boots up in half a minute for me. XP 64-bit has relatively weak support compared to Vista 64-bit or XP 32-bit.
Also, just make sure you are backing up your hard drives frequently since they are old AND in RAID 0.

 

[Ichigo]

I'd ditch the sound card and just step up to a GTX 280.

 

[ZzZGuy]

Ok, saying that the crossfire video cards split the screen was a bad example. A better example is Supertiling http://www.pantherproducts.co....phics/Crossfire2.shtml , there are several other modes such as striping I believe. Nvidia can not do this.

Also note that I am using 4870 Turbo's which have a higher core clock and memory clock making better use of the ram then the 4870 512mb/4870 1gb (epically this one)/4870 x2. This should yield better results not to mention the option of water cooling in the future (I don't think you can watercool a 4870 x2).

I still want the power supply I listed as future upgrades may include a more power hungry GPU/CPU, I will get around to adding up the wattage this build will use.

I will have to ask my friend who recommended the ram the reasons behind it. I'm not afraid to admit that I don't have a high understanding of computer components, and ask my friend for advice a lot as his information has proven very reliable. (I should get his reply to this thread)

For the CPU, there was a good reason behind it but I can't remember right now for the life of me. I'll have that answer later.

The two HD's are fast enough, all the proformance increase I will see with a faster one is reduced loaded times which I don't really mind. I'm not worried about them failing.

I WILL be getting that sound card just for the fact that it includes a panel to plug into, which fits into the front optical drive bay. I always notice background static on mobo onboard sound so I will need a sound card and reaching around the back of the case and using extensions to plug into has tick me off for years.

And I don't hate Vista, I just don't like it. I have used it and would rather suffer through XP 64 bit. And as I said if I get the 64 bit version (still on my to research list) I will be using 4gb of ram.

Good point Zap on the fans. I will have to look up the top heatsinks then eliminate the loud ones, then pick one that will offer the best air flow. I will recheck this post later and look at in detail the heatsink you have mentioned.

Thanks for the reply sao123, but I don't think I can work your build into mine. The price range also depends on just how much of a performance increase, I'll spend a few hundred extra but only if it yields very good results. I never listed a budget as it is very "liquid".

I will be testing the P182 SE case shortly by switching my existing desktop over to this case (after I make a wrist band for the screw driver... /me *grrrrr* *grumble*). -edit- Then I will decide if I need those Slip Stream fans.

And finally the term "future proofing" and what it means to me. What I mean is to have a system that is a cheap as possible, with current knowledge, to upgrade down the road. It is very vague, unreliable and only a hope with may parts. Things like CPU's and GPUs will be the first to go, and possibly a addition of ram. What I wish to avoid is replacing most everything like I'm doing now (didn't take my friends advice).

If there are any holes in my logic please point them out as this is a learning experience for me.

 

[Ichigo]

You're being stubborn.

Ignore the technical talk and go by benchmarks and see which cards win. 4870x2 is better in games that don't scale well with crossfire. SLI GTX 260's beat Crossfire 4870 1GB's in certain games (Crysis comes to mind). You can overclock *any* card. There are good reasons to go Crossfire with 4870's, but yours aren't.

For that price, you want 4GB of RAM. You can find DDR2-1000 4GB kits for cheaper on NCIX. I'm in Canada too, I use the same sites you do.

For all the money you're putting into this, you can buy a single WD Black 640GB and get better performance.

Onboard sound (Realtek and HD Azalia) can be plugged into the front of most cases and 5.25" bays. Also, onboard sound has come a long way since the crap in your current motherboard. Give it a chance before subscribing to Creative's crap. I have an X-Fi. It's not worth it.

You don't like Vista? You'll like XP 64 less. Stick with XP 32-bit if you must, especially if you're using 2GB of RAM anyway.

Future proofing is a moot point with Nehalem releasing and Deneb coming soon as well. Your highest upgrades are going to be, for the most part, what's out now. Not to say that it won't perform admirably, but you'll be able to upgrade the GPU's at best. That's fine since they're the most important component in a gaming computer, but don't expect much better than what you're buying right now.

 

[BlueAcolyte]

Originally posted by: Ichigo
You're being stubborn.

Ignore the technical talk and go by benchmarks and see which cards win. 4870x2 is better in games that don't scale well with crossfire. SLI GTX 260's beat Crossfire 4870 1GB's in certain games (Crysis comes to mind). You can overclock *any* card. There are good reasons to go Crossfire with 4870's, but yours aren't.

For that price, you want 4GB of RAM. You can find DDR2-1000 4GB kits for cheaper on NCIX. I'm in Canada too, I use the same sites you do.

For all the money you're putting into this, you can buy a single WD Black 640GB and get better performance.

Onboard sound (Realtek and HD Azalia) can be plugged into the front of most cases and 5.25" bays. Also, onboard sound has come a long way since the crap in your current motherboard. Give it a chance before subscribing to Creative's crap. I have an X-Fi. It's not worth it.

You don't like Vista? You'll like XP 64 less. Stick with XP 32-bit if you must, especially if you're using 2GB of RAM anyway.

Future proofing is a moot point with Nehalem releasing and Deneb coming soon as well. Your highest upgrades are going to be, for the most part, what's out now. Not to say that it won't perform admirably, but you'll be able to upgrade the GPU's at best. That's fine since they're the most important component in a gaming computer, but don't expect much better than what you're buying right now.

What he said. If you want our advice, then don't try to justify your parts or be defensive.

Anyway, just because a card manufacturer added TURBO to the name doesn't mean it's better, it was just factory overclocked. We all recommend the HD 4870x2 (or GTX 280, sure why not?)

Anyway, Deneb MIGHT go up with Yorkfield. Deneb MIGHT be compatible with Phenom. 2GB IS NOT enough RAM, you'll just find yourself buying more later.
Please, just try the onboard sound... Remember, it's free and if you don't like it you can always get a sound card LATER. (unless you blow the rest of your bonus on hookers )

 

[sao123]

Originally posted by: ZzZGuy
Ok, saying that the crossfire video cards split the screen was a bad example. A better example is Supertiling http://www.pantherproducts.co....phics/Crossfire2.shtml , there are several other modes such as striping I believe. Nvidia can not do this.

Also note that I am using 4870 Turbo's which have a higher core clock and memory clock making better use of the ram then the 4870 512mb/4870 1gb (epically this one)/4870 x2. This should yield better results not to mention the option of water cooling in the future (I don't think you can watercool a 4870 x2).

I still want the power supply I listed as future upgrades may include a more power hungry GPU/CPU, I will get around to adding up the wattage this build will use.

I will have to ask my friend who recommended the ram the reasons behind it. I'm not afraid to admit that I don't have a high understanding of computer components, and ask my friend for advice a lot as his information has proven very reliable. (I should get his reply to this thread)

For the CPU, there was a good reason behind it but I can't remember right now for the life of me. I'll have that answer later.

The two HD's are fast enough, all the proformance increase I will see with a faster one is reduced loaded times which I don't really mind. I'm not worried about them failing.

I WILL be getting that sound card just for the fact that it includes a panel to plug into, which fits into the front optical drive bay. I always notice background static on mobo onboard sound so I will need a sound card and reaching around the back of the case and using extensions to plug into has tick me off for years.

And I don't hate Vista, I just don't like it. I have used it and would rather suffer through XP 64 bit. And as I said if I get the 64 bit version (still on my to research list) I will be using 4gb of ram.

Good point Zap on the fans. I will have to look up the top heatsinks then eliminate the loud ones, then pick one that will offer the best air flow. I will recheck this post later and look at in detail the heatsink you have mentioned.

Thanks for the reply sao123, but I don't think I can work your build into mine. The price range also depends on just how much of a performance increase, I'll spend a few hundred extra but only if it yields very good results. I never listed a budget as it is very "liquid".

I will be testing the P182 SE case shortly by switching my existing desktop over to this case (after I make a wrist band for the screw driver... /me *grrrrr* *grumble*). -edit- Then I will decide if I need those Slip Stream fans.

And finally the term "future proofing" and what it means to me. What I mean is to have a system that is a cheap as possible, with current knowledge, to upgrade down the road. It is very vague, unreliable and only a hope with may parts. Things like CPU's and GPUs will be the first to go, and possibly a addition of ram. What I wish to avoid is replacing most everything like I'm doing now (didn't take my friends advice).

If there are any holes in my logic please point them out as this is a learning experience for me.

According to the prices on the site in your OP... $1895 not including case or monitor...
I build an entire PC, with Case, 4 Hard Drives, which will blow away what your building and cost almost $500 less.

your $1895 + whatever you paid for your $182SE >>>> my $1470

 

[Ichigo]

You're comparing your single GTX 260 against Crossfired 4870's?

Please.

 

[sao123]

Originally posted by: Ichigo
You're comparing your single GTX 260 against Crossfired 4870's?

Please.

yes... i am.

GTX 260 216 gets nearly the same perforance as stock GTX280.
GTX 280 beats a single 4870 in nearly every benchmark Ive seen.

1/2 of all games dont benefit from CF/SLI unless they are specifically optimized for it...

so we could pay $800 for 2 video cards to get a few mors FPS in about *half* of the games on the market, or Pay $300, for an overclocked GTX 260/216 which plays near or at the top of FPS in nearly all titles, for all single GPU setups.

 

[BlueAcolyte]

Wait, wait... I agree with the diminishing returns, but a 4870x2 only costs $550-600?

 

[sao123]

Originally posted by: BlueAcolyte
Wait, wait... I agree with the diminishing returns, but a 4870x2 only costs $550-600?

he didnt say a 4870x2... he said 2x 4870's in CF

 

[BlueAcolyte]

Oh. So you mean he was gonna buy cards that were 1.5x more expensive for the same performance?

 

[Martimus]

I would suggest the Asus M3A78-T over the M3A32-MVP Deluxe, since it has the new SB750 south bridge, and the M3A32-MVP Deluxe does not. the new South Bridge makes a big difference in Overclocking as shown here.

 

[Ichigo]

Originally posted by: sao123

Originally posted by: Ichigo
You're comparing your single GTX 260 against Crossfired 4870's?

Please.

yes... i am.

GTX 260 216 gets nearly the same perforance as stock GTX280.
GTX 280 beats a single 4870 in nearly every benchmark Ive seen.

1/2 of all games dont benefit from CF/SLI unless they are specifically optimized for it...

so we could pay $800 for 2 video cards to get a few mors FPS in about *half* of the games on the market, or Pay $300, for an overclocked GTX 260/216 which plays near or at the top of FPS in nearly all titles, for all single GPU setups.

Bolded is false.

The point is, your build doesn't "blow his away". His build is more expensive, yet it will perform better. It's up to him to decide whether the difference is worth it.

Quad-core doesn't gain you any significant fps, and yet that's in your build. It seems a bit hypocritical.

 

[sao123]

Originally posted by: Ichigo

Originally posted by: sao123

Originally posted by: Ichigo
You're comparing your single GTX 260 against Crossfired 4870's?

Please.

yes... i am.

GTX 260 216 gets nearly the same perforance as stock GTX280.
GTX 280 beats a single 4870 in nearly every benchmark Ive seen.

1/2 of all games dont benefit from CF/SLI unless they are specifically optimized for it...

so we could pay $800 for 2 video cards to get a few mors FPS in about *half* of the games on the market, or Pay $300, for an overclocked GTX 260/216 which plays near or at the top of FPS in nearly all titles, for all single GPU setups.

Bolded is false.

The point is, your build doesn't "blow his away". His build is more expensive, yet it will perform better. It's up to him to decide whether the difference is worth it.

Quad-core doesn't gain you any significant fps, and yet that's in your build. It seems a bit hypocritical.

According to Anandtech's own benchmarks bolded is true.

Italicized = reading FTL...
i didnt say anythign about quad core giving any significant gain in FPS, the simple fact is that an intel core 2, beats a phenom, always. I also bought a quad core not for gaming... but for the non gaming things I do.

 

[ZzZGuy]

Well, the parts have been ordered with some modifications from what I had "on paper".

Judging from the past posts you guys are probably going to yell at me, so I'll simply post all the components along with various benchmarks -edit- once it's up and running -edit-. It'll be 2 weeks before all the parts are in, any bugs worked out and over clocking is done. Assuming of course that I don't run into defective parts or brake anything myself... again.

 

[jae]

Originally posted by: ZzZGuy
Well, the parts have been ordered with some modifications from what I had "on paper".

Judging from the past posts you guys are probably going to yell at me, so I'll simply post all the components along with various benchmarks -edit- once it's up and running -edit-. It'll be 2 weeks before all the parts are in, any bugs worked out and over clocking is done. Assuming of course that I don't run into defective parts or brake anything myself... again.

well what the hell was the point of asking for advice here...? since it seem like this will be just for gaming... shouldve gotten a e8x00, 4870x2, 4GB ddr2-800 ram, wd640, x64 os, nice psu, p45.. and u could pocket the rest of the money for the upgrade when the sockets change. u anticipating the amd's next chips will wipe intel.. boy did we think the same thing about phenom. and if intel chips come out and not a big difference in performance with gaming, you couldve just upgraded to a Q9XX0 (which should be cheaper by then) if you wanted extra cores. but anywho your money and your friends advice which doesnt make any sense. quad-core (slow one at that) + dual 4870s + 2GB of ram = wtf im sorry but your friend cant design a system. when u get ur system realize it couldve been faster and cheaper if u wouldve listened.