Building a $3000 Mac Pro alternative

[cirquenebbe]

Wow! Thanks for all the responses! First of all, I hear you loud and clear on the i7 920-issue. And secondly, I do not intend on getting a workstation graphic card. The thing is: I want a desktop that I can use my Eizo with, can run Photoshop/Lightroom decently and will let me run through modern games. In the Mac world these criteria excludes the Mac Mini and iMac (unless I really want a dual screen setup). So it all started with me looking at the Mac Pro and thinking: That is a lot of cash.

Hackintosh ain't the way for me. As much as I would like to be able to run OS X, dicking around every time there is an update is not what I want to do

 

[elconejito]

Just a quick statement on the graphics card. Photoshop really only uses the OpenGL (***NOT CUDA***) acceleration for display related things.

GPU and OpenGL Features and Limitations in Photoshop CS4 from Adobe's Knowledge Base.

If you look to see what is accelerated, it's stuff like zooming and panning. Helpful, but not by any means something that will benefit from a workstation-level card. You could just get the most basic card on their list and it should do just dandy. The reason for getting a high-end card or even considering multi-GPU is just for the gaming aspect and it's within his budget. Note that Bridge uses the GPU for building previews/thumbnails.

Graphics Acceleration (GPU) support in Adobe Creative Suite 4 applications also from Adobe's Knowledge Base.

You'll notice that Lightroom isn't on the list. The only programs GPU accelerated are Acrobat, After Effects, Bridge, Flash 10 (wow, really?), Photoshop, and Premiere Pro.

=====
I don't know if my post above got lost in the shuffle, but you depending on your filesizes/ scratch sizes in PS, you might benefit from either higher-end hard drives, or a little more complex RAID setup. If you're dealing with really large files, the bottleneck on this system will be the drives, not the CPU or RAM.

 

[ChaiBabbaChai]

Redraws will be faster with a workstation card AND it looks like you may run into freezes / stalls / crashes because of mainstream drivers when running Lightroom.

I'm guessing lightroom doesn't show up on that Adobe CS4 list because lightroom is not part of the Creative Suite. ?? Still, you should get the most powerful CPU/RAM you can get because most of the work load is not on the GPU. With the coin you save over a Mac Pro, you can build a much faster system with much more compatible gfx card. If you spend half the price of a Mac Pro for your i7 build, a $800 gfx card will just make your system that much better than a Mac Pro and you'll still have saved hundreds. How important is gaming if you have to finish your 8 (or more) hour work day before you can sink into Modern Warfare 2? Are you going to be playing games for 8 (or more hours a day)? Which one will hurt you more when it doesn't work right? Ask yourself these questions.

 

[deputc26]

Chai are you just trying to stir the pot? if so you've done well.

Originally posted by: ChaiBabbaChai
Redraws will be faster with a workstation card

false and ridiculous, where did you come up with this? The only workstation card that will occasionally be faster is $6,600.

AND it looks like you may run into freezes / stalls / crashes because of mainstream drivers when running Lightroom.

false and scaremongering, where did you "look" to find this?

I'm guessing lightroom doesn't show up on that Adobe CS4 list because lightroom is not part of the Creative Suite. ?? Still, you should get the most powerful CPU/RAM you can get because most of the work load is not on the GPU.

True.

With the coin you save over a Mac Pro, you can build a much faster system with much more compatible gfx card. If you spend half the price of a Mac Pro for your i7 build, a $800 gfx card will just make your system that much better

Again, your $800 workstation gfx will make the system slower, not better. Show me one benchmark that shows an $800 workstation card beating a GTX 285.

than a Mac Pro and you'll still have saved hundreds. How important is gaming if you have to finish your 8 (or more) hour work day before you can sink into Modern Warfare 2? Are you going to be playing games for 8 (or more hours a day)? Which one will hurt you more when it doesn't work right? Ask yourself these questions.

Again the assumption that a workstation card will be better. :disgust:

Oh and that $395.00 BFG card has 2gb of memory on a 512 bit bus and 240 cores clocked at 666mhz.

To get an nvidia Quadro that has 1.5gb of memory on a 384bit bus and 192 cores clocked at 602mhz is $1500 not $800.

The cores and memory on these cards are identical, except of course for how many there are and clock speeds.

 

[ChaiBabbaChai]

I just don't like when people are generally wrong and continue to be blow-hards. If it's false then prove it (in the context of the intended application). My post in this thread is a summary of another post.

You apparently think gaming uses the same type of acceleration as CAD and Photoshop work. It's just totally apparent that the common knowledge around here is BS and I'm not stupid enough to buy it. Most people are average - that doesn't cut it for me. As far as scaremongering, I figured someone would respond with something like, "it will crash with either kind of card" rather than your ignorant zeal. I think you are the one stirring the pot here. I'm defending my original opinion and trying get to the TRUTH.

Benchmarks (the majority) are written for gaming performance. You probably won't find many GeForce vs. Quadro comparisons because they're not designed for the same applications. If you look at the Autodesk forums you will see why a workstation card is better. You still don't get the point of a workstation gfx card... I didn't link to ANY card, so why would you pull a Quadro FX 4800 out of your hat? LOL

Just stop with your conflation of disparate concepts - it's too hilariously wrong. Your points are not valid in the context of workstation cards, and sometimes not valid at all.

 

[jkresh]

CHiaBabbaChai, you are absolutely correct that for certain apps workstation cards are more then worth it (and in those cases even a really cheap workstation card will beat the best desktop card) (see for some benchmarks that give a rough idea of the differences http://www.computerpoweruser.c...A4A339DF0E2B3C3EF5289) that being said, photoshop does not require workstation graphics (neither does lightroom). For cadcam/rendering... a workstation card is a must, for photoshop it is probably a waste (especially if the user also would like to play games on the same system).

 

[ChaiBabbaChai]

Thanks, jkresh. I run photoshop on my laptop which has Intel integrated gfx so ya...

I can draw a picture with a bag of Kingsford, too - just sayin'.

 

[deputc26]

Originally posted by: ChaiBabbaChai
I just don't like when people are generally wrong and continue to be blow-hards. If it's false then prove it (in the context of the intended application). My post in this thread is a summary of another post.

You apparently think gaming uses the same type of acceleration as CAD and Photoshop work. It's just totally apparent that the common knowledge around here is BS and I'm not stupid enough to buy it. Most people are average - that doesn't cut it for me. As far as scaremongering, I figured someone would respond with something like, "it will crash with either kind of card" rather than your ignorant zeal. I think you are the one stirring the pot here. I'm defending my original opinion and trying get to the TRUTH.

Benchmarks (the majority) are written for gaming performance. You probably won't find many GeForce vs. Quadro comparisons because they're not designed for the same applications. If you look at the Autodesk forums you will see why a workstation card is better. You still don't get the point of a workstation gfx card... I didn't link to ANY card, so why would you pull a Quadro FX 4800 out of your hat? LOL

Just stop with your conflation of disparate concepts - it's too hilariously wrong. Your points are not valid in the context of workstation cards, and sometimes not valid at all.

LR does not use the GPU at all. The only application that the OP uses that will be accelerated by the GPU is CS4. CS4 uses openGL for acceleration. Geforce are optimized to accelerate openGL, many games are written with openGL. Given equal hardware, quadro will be identical to geforce in accelerating openGL. But the hardware is not equal. The $395 geforce hardware is superior to even $1500 quadro hardware. I chose that 4800 card because it's specifications are *second* closest to the GTX 285's. The quadro with closest specifications costs $6600.

For CATIA and 3dsMAX go with quadro, geforce does not have drivers to accelerate these programs properly, for Photoshop go with geforce, it will be faster and cheaper.

 

[caspur]

Ok, who here went to the Apple website and ogled the Mac Pro case? Even the boutique Dell XPS (approx 3k also) with their fancy water cooling is a jumbled mess compared to the Mac. The Mac doesn't even use cables for its hard drives! Try and duplicate that with your copycat case from newegg.

 

[yh125d]

Originally posted by: caspur
Ok, who here went to the Apple website and ogled the Mac Pro case? Even the boutique Dell XPS (approx 3k also) with their fancy water cooling is a jumbled mess compared to the Mac. The Mac doesn't even use cables for its hard drives! Try and duplicate that with your copycat case from newegg.

It's also limited to four 3.5" drives, which even a $20 case from newegg isn't

 

[elconejito]

Originally posted by: ChaiBabbaChai
Redraws will be faster with a workstation card AND it looks like you may run into freezes / stalls / crashes because of mainstream drivers when running Lightroom.

I'm guessing lightroom doesn't show up on that Adobe CS4 list because lightroom is not part of the Creative Suite. ?? Still, you should get the most powerful CPU/RAM you can get because most of the work load is not on the GPU. With the coin you save over a Mac Pro, you can build a much faster system with much more compatible gfx card. If you spend half the price of a Mac Pro for your i7 build, a $800 gfx card will just make your system that much better than a Mac Pro and you'll still have saved hundreds. How important is gaming if you have to finish your 8 (or more) hour work day before you can sink into Modern Warfare 2? Are you going to be playing games for 8 (or more hours a day)? Which one will hurt you more when it doesn't work right? Ask yourself these questions.

This hadn't actually occurred to me. Great, i feel an all day googling adventure ahead of me...

But to the point that jkresh & deputc26 already mentioned. Workstation cards definitely have their place with CAD/3D programs. Probably other applications too. I *suspect* After Effects might benefit from a workstation card. And some 3rd party filters for Premiere are Quadro & CUDA accelerated (they pimp this on the adobe website) which would benefit from worksation level cards. But for the OP I think spending that kind of cash could be better spent elsewhere for improved performance.

However, I will take a look and see what if any acceleration is supported in Lightroom, I hadn't considered that it's not included in CS4.

Oh, and the case? Mac definitely has some sexy cases. But (for me) it ends there. You can't even put an SSD in there without modding the case. Crazy...

 

[TheStu]

Originally posted by: elconejito

Originally posted by: ChaiBabbaChai
Redraws will be faster with a workstation card AND it looks like you may run into freezes / stalls / crashes because of mainstream drivers when running Lightroom.

I'm guessing lightroom doesn't show up on that Adobe CS4 list because lightroom is not part of the Creative Suite. ?? Still, you should get the most powerful CPU/RAM you can get because most of the work load is not on the GPU. With the coin you save over a Mac Pro, you can build a much faster system with much more compatible gfx card. If you spend half the price of a Mac Pro for your i7 build, a $800 gfx card will just make your system that much better than a Mac Pro and you'll still have saved hundreds. How important is gaming if you have to finish your 8 (or more) hour work day before you can sink into Modern Warfare 2? Are you going to be playing games for 8 (or more hours a day)? Which one will hurt you more when it doesn't work right? Ask yourself these questions.

This hadn't actually occurred to me. Great, i feel an all day googling adventure ahead of me...

But to the point that jkresh & deputc26 already mentioned. Workstation cards definitely have their place with CAD/3D programs. Probably other applications too. I *suspect* After Effects might benefit from a workstation card. And some 3rd party filters for Premiere are Quadro & CUDA accelerated (they pimp this on the adobe website) which would benefit from worksation level cards. But for the OP I think spending that kind of cash could be better spent elsewhere for improved performance.

However, I will take a look and see what if any acceleration is supported in Lightroom, I hadn't considered that it's not included in CS4.

Oh, and the case? Mac definitely has some sexy cases. But (for me) it ends there. You can't even put an SSD in there without modding the case. Crazy...

I would love to sit in on whatever meetings take place at Apple where they decide what things they will support or not.

"Wireless N and gigabit on all systems?" "Sure, why not?"
"HDMI?" "Not a chance"
"Card readers?" "Maybe, someday"
"Support for 2.5" drives in our $2000 base tower?" "Nah... who needs that?"

 

[ChaiBabbaChai]

I wish there was a way to use these dual, triple, or quad x16 motherboards to switch between graphics cards...

I suppose it might be possible with 2 separate hardware configurations in Windows, right? I'm not trying it...

 

[erleichda]

I'm curious what you guys would say to someone who DOES want to edit video. I'm looking at specs now for a build out, based on this message

http://cinema5d.com/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=3266

h.624 files native are enormous, and many folks create an even larger lossless proxy before editing in Adobe Premiere or similar.

Would this change your GC specs? How would you configure RAID?

Last, I've built a PC once with effort but time is limited these days. Is there a reliable online retailer that will let you spec the build but do the install for you?

Thanks

 

[deputc26]

erleichda, Large format is awesome! but I suggest you start a new thread. For h.264 in adobe premier I may recommend a quadro (they accelerate h.264 in premier, geforce doesn't but they are only ~10% faster than a highly clocked core i7) depending on other factors such as price point etc. For those massive files on a mac-like budget I would get 12gb ram and RAID a couple Intel SSDs to move those giant files around. It'll be sequential read speed that counts when loading a huge file and that is where Intel SSDs really shine, though saving the file after editing it will be quicker on raided Vertex's.

 

[elconejito]

Editing large video files definitely needs a new thread I think, but just to start off you'd have to think really hard about workflow... For example, capture to one disk (RAID 0 or 10), save to another disk (RAID 10), have another disk as scratch (RAID 0).

RAID 0 is for the most speed, minimum of 2 drives. You only want information stored on there that is backed up elsewhere, since a failure in any drive ruins the whole RAID array.

RAID 10 is also for speed, but has some redundancy, minimum of 4 drives.