Building 30 machines for a school computer lab. Any advice appreciated...

[Burpo]

New Lenovo sale, quad-core Xeon E3-1225 v3, 7200rpm 500Gb hdd w/optical drive $329.. Most bang for $$. Grab some
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=9SIA24G15M2105&ignorebbr=1

 

[lsommerer]

New Lenovo sale, quad-core Xeon E3-1225 v3, 7200rpm 500Gb hdd w/optical drive $329.. Most bang for $$. Grab some
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=9SIA24G15M2105&ignorebbr=1

I actually think I like your first suggestion better:

http://cukusa.com/lenovo-thinkserver-ts140-70a4000hux-tower-server.html

Eitherway, the graphics will be slower and the memory will be more expensive (can I mix ECC and non-ECC memory?), but the processor is better (thinking about the G3250 option more now) and it is from a reputable source instead of being put together by a bunch of hacks.

$250 ThinkServer TS140 w/i3-4130
$37 Kingston 4GB ECC memory (prefer Crucial, but cost is $48)
$69 Intel 120GB SSD
-----------------
$356

 

[Burpo]

Antonline has had those for awhile now, and at the sale price, you can't build them for that. The quad Xeon is $225 by itself. More powerful than the i3 for sure.. I wouldn't skimp on CPU. Maybe at least get some for the lab?
Lenovo TS 140 w/Xeon = 10
Lenovo TS 140 i3 = 10
Student Build = 10

 

[lsommerer]

If you decide to go down that route, I have a few recommendations on that build:

1) CPU. If you could possibly squeeze an i3-43xx in there, it would help a bit for the future-proofing aspect. You get the HD4600 instead of the HD4400 and an additional MB of L2 cache. But on a budget the 4160/70 is a great chip.

I don't think I can. Even moving away from the the mini-ITX cases and motherboards and getting rid of wi-fi, I'm still pushing the upper end of my budget with the i3-4150/4160.

2) Mainboard. Do you really need WIFI on the boxes? If not you could save a bit there by going with a mainboard without WIFI.

My superintendent made some noise about it being nice to have wi-fi on these new machines, but I haven't had a chance to ask him what use case he was thinking of. It could mean that the computer lab might switch classrooms (I can't really think of any other use case). Our wi-fi infrastructure is good enough to support a lab of wi-fi machines (not that I think that's a great idea).

3) RAM. There is just no excuse for not running dual channel, especially when using the IGP. Get 2x2GB kits instead, or even better 2x4GB. 4GB is going to feel very small in a few years, if not already. If that's not an option, pick a mainboard with 4 DIMM slots, so its easy to upgrade the memory later. You might have to move to the mATX form-factor for that, but in return it will give you a bit more flexibility all-round.

I've read a lot of mixed reports about the usefulness of dual channel, especially with the applications that it looks like we would be running. On the other hand, people seem to show consistent improvements with integrated graphics and dual channel.

I initially was only considering mini-ITX motherboards and they have 2 slots, so I felt that future expansion was more important, and we have put more RAM into school machines to get a couple more years of use out of them. If we go with mATX, then, as you said, I don't see any reason not to get two sticks instead of one.

Thanks for the information.

 

[mvbighead]

(can I mix ECC and non-ECC memory?)

If you this route, simply take sticks out of some systems, and place them into the other half. Then use purchased sticks in the other half. No mixing and matching of RAM.

 

[Insert_Nickname]

I don't think I can. Even moving away from the the mini-ITX cases and motherboards and getting rid of wi-fi, I'm still pushing the upper end of my budget with the i3-4150/4160.

4150/60 will be fine. The 43xx's are nice to have, not need to have.

My superintendent made some noise about it being nice to have wi-fi on these new machines, but I haven't had a chance to ask him what use case he was thinking of. It could mean that the computer lab might switch classrooms (I can't really think of any other use case). Our wi-fi infrastructure is good enough to support a lab of wi-fi machines (not that I think that's a great idea).

You are 100% correct on that. With such a number of clients (30), WIFI is going to have both terrible latency and throughput.

Wireless networking is completely different to cabled. But that is another discussion.

I've read a lot of mixed reports about the usefulness of dual channel, especially with the applications that it looks like we would be running. On the other hand, people seem to show consistent improvements with integrated graphics and dual channel.

If you use the IGP, dual channel is important. If you have a discrete GPU, it's less important. But why cripple something intentionally...

I initially was only considering mini-ITX motherboards and they have 2 slots, so I felt that future expansion was more important, and we have put more RAM into school machines to get a couple more years of use out of them. If we go with mATX, then, as you said, I don't see any reason not to get two sticks instead of one.

mATX cases are a dime a dozen, so you should be able to save a bit there. ITX cases tend to be more expensive and require special PSUs, which again tend to be more expensive.

I have recently grown very fond of the Cooler Master Elite 361. Its a great compromise between size, functionality and price. Can even fit a full-size ATX board, if you're so inclined.

 

[heymrdj]

I would be cautious of onboard wifi, it's another failure point. I'd go with little desk mount wifi antenna stations that go to a usb port on the computer. They've been more reliable in the schools I work with.

 

[mvbighead]

I have recently grown very fond of the Cooler Master Elite 361. Its a great compromise between size, functionality and price. Can even fit a full-size ATX board, if you're so inclined.

The power supply is mounted in the front? Seems a bit odd to me. Nice that it protects the switch and all, but removing the front panel when the need arises for a hard power down would be a nuisance, and I would think would eventually cause enough wear on the case that it isn't quite as secure. Could be wrong, but that design is very different.

 

[lsommerer]

If you this route, simply take sticks out of some systems, and place them into the other half. Then use purchased sticks in the other half. No mixing and matching of RAM.

That makes a lot more sense than what I was thinking. I guess a better question is if you can use non-ECC memory. The users guide seemed to indicate that it was required, but I could be reading it wrong.

 

[mvbighead]

That makes a lot more sense than what I was thinking. I guess a better question is if you can use non-ECC memory. The users guide seemed to indicate that it was required, but I could be reading it wrong.

https://forums.lenovo.com/t5/ThinkServer-Towers/What-memory-modules-work-in-a-TS-140/td-p/1359677

One of the user comments seems to suggest that non-ECC works, which is what I would expect:

To clarify the statements above based on my experiences with these TS140 servers,

1. ECC Unbuffered works. Buffered memory definitely does NOT work. Bios will not post with Buffered memory.
2. Non-ECC, Non-Buffered memory Does Work.
3. Module voltage should be 1.5 volts. Modules rated at 1.35 volts are not stable.
4. Use modules with CAS Latency (CL) of 11 for pc3-12800 ddr3-1600MHz modules. if you use modules with higher performance (such as modules with CL of 9) the Bios will adjust the clock speed to the default parameter for that CL (in this case 1333MHz). The Bios has no ability to adjust the RAM clock frequency or CL.

 

[piasabird]

At my Son's High School they had a 2 year program for Cisco Academy for Juniors and Seniors interested in Networking and repairing PC's. Yes they could probably have built some computers. In fact I built some computers at home with my son at that time.

However, I would look for some kind of deal with volume discounts on computers before I made a decision. Get some quotes from the Business division for say 30 computers and then see what Kind of deals you can find on parts and run the numbers both ways and see what you come up with. Don't make some kind of decision based on the price of a single computer from New Egg.

I mentioned splitting up the computer orders. Say build 15 computers using cheap motherboards and low end CPU's, and then building the other 15 using newer i-5's. How we do things at community college is we order newer computers for the labs then cascade the old lab computers to the lower end uses like for instructors, etc. Then we sell old old computers or give them away after say 5 years to churches or auction the rest off or just sell them for little or nothing for salvage.

If you purchase today's technology buy extra RAM. I have made the mistake of not getting extra RAM, and if you wait too long, the DDR3 RAM will drop in supply and the prices will actually go up, or the RAM will become unavailable for upgrade.

 

[Insert_Nickname]

The power supply is mounted in the front? Seems a bit odd to me.

But actually works quite well. It is very easy to do the internal cabling in fact, because of the internal volume and location of the PSU. Especially with a modular PSU.

Nice that it protects the switch and all, but removing the front panel when the need arises for a hard power down would be a nuisance, and I would think would eventually cause enough wear on the case that it isn't quite as secure. Could be wrong, but that design is very different.

You're over-thinking this. Firstly, there is a real reset button on the front panel. Something I haven't seen on OEM machines in a very long time. Secondly if you really need to do a hard power down, just yank the power cord instead of flipping the switch.

 

[vailr]

New Lenovo sale, quad-core Xeon E3-1225 v3, 7200rpm 500Gb hdd w/optical drive $329.. Most bang for $$. Grab some
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=9SIA24G15M2105&ignorebbr=1

That machine uses the Intel C226 chipset, which is the older series 8 chipset. Plus: it's probably more CPU horsepower than needed.

If it were my decision, I'd probably pick the H97 mATX motherboard, i3-4160, 2x 4 Gb DDR3, Corsair 430 W PSU, $27 Fractal Design mATX case, no optical drive, SanDisk 120 Gb SSD and Windows 10 operating system, whenever that gets released.
See if Dell/Lenovo/HP etc. can match those components (using an Intel series 9 chipset) & price.
My guess is: they can't.

http://forums.anandtech.com//www.pinterest.com/pin/create/extension/

 

[Burpo]

Too much CPU power? lol.. For the money it does everything he needs and then some. I'd take it over an i3 anyday.

 

[RaistlinZ]

No way, don't build 30 machines. Kids are going to be using these, which means they'll likely need service and repair quite often. You want to be able to go to ONE vendor for support/repair/replacement, instead of hunting down which part failed and have to RMA stuff to different manufacturers.

 

[vailr]

For the money it does everything he needs and then some. I'd take it over an i3 anyday.

Except: there's no DVI port. Newegg's product photo appears to show 1x VGA & 2x Display Ports.
Also: the motherboard's initial bios is dated August 2013. So it's already nearly 2 years since that model's first release.
http://support.lenovo.com/us/en/pro...-servers/thinkserver-ts140/downloads/ds040148
If these machines won't be used until the beginning of the next school year (Fall of 2015), then waiting for Intel Skylake machines to appear might be another option.

 

[vailr]

No way, don't build 30 machines. Kids are going to be using these, which means they'll likely need service and repair quite often. You want to be able to go to ONE vendor for support/repair/replacement, instead of hunting down which part failed and have to RMA stuff to different manufacturers.

I really don't think part breakage by students would either:
1. be all that likely to occur
2. or even be covered by manufacturer warranty, if that did happen.
It's not like it's going to be an everyday occurrence, where a student sticks a ball point pen or chewing gum into a back port, or something like that. The OP already has ~5 years of experience using PC's in that scenario, and doesn't appear to be overly concerned about students breaking the computer lab's PC's. Whether bought as parts bundles and assembled on site, or purchased fully assembled, actual machine malfunctions would be a pretty rare occurrence, in my estimation.

Side note: there's currently a "4% cash back" available for Tiger Direct Business, via the web link at topcashback.com.

 

[Red Squirrel]

lol $350 to build a machine? That will buy you the CPU and motherboard, maybe. Though prices in the states are quite cheap, so maybe it could be done... don't forget to account for shipping and taxes though.

If you are going for a high performance machine like say, i7 with 16GB of ram and a SSD, it will be cheaper to build than to buy because OEMs will price higher end stuff at a premium, but if you're going for like core i3 with 4GB of ram and slow HDD type machine then it will be cheaper to buy. Personally given your requirements of future proofing I'd go the higher end route, but you're looking at close to a grand per PC.

The challenge is trying to find 30 of the same parts though. I think it would be cool to see more organizations custom build but sadly it seems the industry just makes it hard to build systems in bulk mostly because of part availability. Most sites even have a limit per person when buying certain parts, or have low stock and next stock will be another revision of the part. This makes OS deployment harder as you need to make multiple images instead of just 1 install then clone to all the PCs.

I really like the custom build approach though, but you definitely need to up your budget, and part sourcing WILL be a challenge.

 

[Insert_Nickname]

If you are going for a high performance machine like say, i7 with 16GB of ram and a SSD, it will be cheaper to build than to buy because OEMs will price higher end stuff at a premium, but if you're going for like core i3 with 4GB of ram and slow HDD type machine then it will be cheaper to buy. Personally given your requirements of future proofing I'd go the higher end route, but you're looking at close to a grand per PC.

Please don't make the mistake of using HDDs for the system drive. You'll regret doing that already, not to mention a few years from now, and think of the poor ah heck who has to service those machines. A 128GB SSD is both cheap, and has plenty of capacity for the system image and any programs needed. For bulk storage, consider a NAS, external drive or something.

Stick a cheap SSD in an OEM PC if you must, just don't use HDDs.

 

[Red Squirrel]

Please don't make the mistake of using HDDs for the system drive. You'll regret doing that already, not to mention a few years from now, and think of the poor ah heck who has to service those machines. A 128GB SSD is both cheap, and has plenty of capacity for the system image and any programs needed. For bulk storage, consider a NAS, external drive or something.

Stick a cheap SSD in an OEM PC if you must, just don't use HDDs.

Oh I know, but just saying that's the cheaper option. OEMs charge a ridiculous premium for SSD, so if you're trying to keep it cheap you go with the crappy HDD they they'll stick in it, probably a 320GB 5400rpm drive that will sound like a 1940's telephony switch on midnight at new year's eve.

Personally I'd definitely go SSD and a beefier machine but it will cost more than $350.

 

[Ketchup]

I am a bit surprised by this thread. Many of you are posting as if the OP has never done this before (he has) and doesn't know how kids will handle it (he does).

I only wish I could be part of it TBH. My computer class had 286's that were extremely boring compared to modern technology. I think the kids who are interested will have a lot of fun here.

 

[mvbighead]

No way, don't build 30 machines. Kids are going to be using these, which means they'll likely need service and repair quite often. You want to be able to go to ONE vendor for support/repair/replacement, instead of hunting down which part failed and have to RMA stuff to different manufacturers.

Generally speaking, 99% of a what a kid is going to screw up is going to be software related. The only way for them to really damage the hardware is to pick it up and throw it on the ground, which I would guess is highly unlikely.

And just in case you're not aware, the system provider generally is going to give you bottom level support because app XYZ doesn't work. I love people who tout warranty as though it saves you from something. It doesn't. It really is there to cover hardware problems, and most systems can make it out of the 1 year warranty with ease.

 

[VirtualLarry]

That i3-2100 is socket 1155 and only includes HD 2000 graphics.
http://ark.intel.com/products/53422/Intel-Core-i3-2100-Processor-3M-Cache-3_10-GHz
The i3-4150 (with HD 4400 graphics) is the correct Haswell socket 1150 CPU form factor for the refurbished H81 Lenovo system that you linked to at Newegg.
http://ark.intel.com/products/77486/Intel-Core-i3-4150-Processor-3M-Cache-3_50-GHz

Uhm, normally you're usually spot-on, but I think you goofed this time. Those $95 refurb Lenovo units are "M81" - model number, not "H81" - chipset. The CPU in them is a Sandy Bridge Pentium with HD2000, so obviously, not compatible with 1150 CPUs.