Broadband internet is the new electricity

[nickqt]

More redundant? Do you know how redundant the electrical grid already is? How much more redundant do you think it should be? And how much are you (and other customers) willing to pay for that additional redundancy?

FWIW, it is the electronics (i.e. control and relay equipment) that are most susceptible to EMPs, not the transformers or transmission lines. The cost of burying electrical lines increases dramatically with their voltage level, and is usually judged to be cost prohibitive for anything above 13 kV. But if cost is no object...



Electric utilities are monopolies that are heavily regulated by state or local governments with rates set based on their cost of providing electric service rather than the market value of that service to their customers. There aren't many other industries that are required to sell their product for less than the market would bear.

Enron tried to sell the idea that the "power of the market" would lower customer rates, and we all (should) know how well that worked out. Of course, Texas (in its cantankerous nature) stayed the Enron course, and we all know how well that worked out this winter (including the sky high bills that some customers received because they picked the wrong provider).

But, yeah, let's go through that again.



Yes, you are being redundant, and simplistic.

Almost all of the electric grid should be buried, because it being susceptible to lightning, wind, ice, and other natural weather effects, along with people, is hilariously inept for a "first world" country.

And while doing that, transformers and everything else that can be shielded from EMPs AND CMEs should be. CMEs would do a lot of damage to other components that EMPs might not destroy

And while doing that, we can be lying down high speed internet since we're already digging all those ditches.

And I don't want there to be MORE private providers. I want there to be a Federal provider that isn't private, the exact opposite of Texas and the current system.

 

[woolfe9998]

Rural white people spending more time on the internet? Isn't that what got us into this mess to begin with? Where would qanon be if rural white people had no internet access?

 

[kage69]

Rural white people spending more time on the internet? Isn't that what got us into this mess to begin with? Where would qanon be if rural white people had no internet access?

Yeah. Those that live in the sticks made that choice to never engage in the same level of opportunity as the rest of us. Not like they have kids either, so no remote schooling needs there thank goodness.

Wait, that's stupid. Keeping people marginally employed while the kids are stuck home, sounds like a great way to alleviate stress and disgruntlement in rural households. Not everyone in the sticks is conservative. City folks stormed the capitol too. People tend to settle the hell down when they aren't desperate in supporting their families. Access to more opportunity for the rural lower class needs to happen. If there's a better option for this access it needs to be shared with the Biden admin.

I think we should put the blame where it belongs, with people like Gingrich, Mercer, Trump, those unstable and/or racist enough to lose their damn minds when a half black guy wins the White House. Playing the what if game can go around and around via points of order. Where would Qanon be if Reagan never killed the Fairness Doctrine? Where would Qanon be if there wasn't Fox as we know it? How about we just address the right wing nutjobs, use behavior and voting to establish "right wing risk," rather than basing that on where people live?

 

[kage69]

Almost all of the electric grid should be buried, because it being susceptible to lightning, wind, ice, and other natural weather effects, along with people, is hilariously inept for a "first world" country.

And while doing that, transformers and everything else that can be shielded from EMPs AND CMEs should be. CMEs would do a lot of damage to other components that EMPs might not destroy

And while doing that, we can be lying down high speed internet since we're already digging all those ditches.

And I don't want there to be MORE private providers. I want there to be a Federal provider that isn't private, the exact opposite of Texas and the current system.

This.

The last 4ish years have really highlighted many ways in which repugs and their ideas have failed the 21st century test for America. We need solutions, not the dogma of private interests. People who give the donor class trillions while stiffing the needy then trying to kill democracy don't get to act patriotic in lecturing others on which Americans deserve safe water, electricity, or internet access. Fuck them and the corporate horse that rode in on'em.

 

[PowerEngineer]

Reading through how our Texas grid problems during the winter storm, I was shocked to find out we were within about 4 minutes of losing the entire grid. I was even more shocked to find out if that had happened it could have been months to recover it.

Apparently as power generating facilities went off-line due to the cold the electrical frequency began deviating from 60HZ down to 59.4HZ at which point circuit breakers give about 10 minutes to load shed and recover the frequency. I think this is to protect the generators from permanent damage. This would have cascaded to all generators on the Texas grid at which point they would have had to try recovery from an entirely dead system.

I’ve had to take a day to recover about half of our DC system via remote control after a distribution box spontaneously reset itself so I understand it can take awhile but I wasn’t expecting this type of cascade to take weeks to months.

I’d like to see more redundancy or controls to prevent this type of black swan event.

Well, the basic challenge for any electric interconnection is to maintain the minute-by-minute balance between the power being put into the grid by the generating resources and the power being pulled out by the customer loads. System frequency is the real-time measure of how well this resource-load balance is being maintained. When resources exceed loads there is excess power that goes into accelerating the rotation of all the spinning generators and motors. Conversely, when loads exceed resources then the spinning generators and motors all slow down. These speed changes are what changes the system frequency.

Most all generators are driven by turbines of some sort, and these turbines are designed to only operate within a narrow range of speeds that translate to a narrow range around the nominal 60 Hz electrical frequency. If the frequency drops to the point that the turbines go outside their operating range then the generator will the tripped offline to protect equipment. Of course, tripping the generator removes more input into the grid and pulls the system frequency even lower. This can lead to a cascading series of generator trips that ends with a total black-out of the entire grid. To avoid this, the grid usually has a "safety net" of relays set to shed some loads (to send the frequency higher) if frequency is dropping toward levels that would see generators trip. The exact setting depend on the nature of the interconnection, but starting somewhere between 59.0 and 59.5 Hz seems about right.

This "safety net" is supposed to sacrifice some customer loads to keep the grid from collapsing and maintaining service to most customers. I do not understand why Texas didn't think their "safety net" would do its job. And I would have expected that the majority of restoration could have be completed in a couple of days, unless their estimate was also anticipating serious weather related damage. The reports on this should be interesting.

 

[PowerEngineer]

Almost all of the electric grid should be buried, because it being susceptible to lightning, wind, ice, and other natural weather effects, along with people, is hilariously inept for a "first world" country.

What might seem more "hilariously inept" is your implicit assumption that there is anywhere in this world - "first" or otherwise - where "almost all" of the electric grid has been buried. Believe it or not, there are sound apolitical cost/benefit reasons for this

 

[kage69]

Get these guys some towels to wipe up with

"NCTA–The Internet & Television Association, which represents Comcast, Charter, Cox, and other cable companies, argued that Biden's plan is "a serious wrong turn." NCTA is particularly mad that Biden wants to expand municipal broadband networks that could fill gaps where there's no high-speed broadband from private ISPs and lower prices by providing competition to cable companies that usually dominate their regional territories. "

USTelecom, which represents AT&T, Verizon, and other DSL and fiber providers, also claimed that things are going well and that Biden should stick with a strategy centered on private ISPs.

"Today's broadband marketplace is also ultra-competitive, defined by increasing speeds, declining prices, new entrants and next generation technologies," USTelecom CEO Jonathan Spalter said. "Congress now should prioritize affordability and accessibility solutions that are fast and smart and incentivize continued private investment to get the job done."




Fully disclosing prices charged, uploads over 10Mb? The horror. Biden you fuckin commie. "Ultra competitive" ahaha

 

[kage69]

What might seem more "hilariously inept" is your implicit assumption that there is anywhere in this world - "first" or otherwise - where "almost all" of the electric grid has been buried. Believe it or not, there are sound apolitical cost/benefit reasons for this

Not the wording I would have used, there, but I still agree with his overall sentiment.

The use of poles is mostly about cost and ease of access to repair/upgrade, far as I know, but often the reason can be geological or topographical in nature. Florida and The Keys strike me as good examples. With a high water table or coral rock instead of soil, the costs involved going underground would be just too high. Just sucks that place gets so many hurricanes. Monroe County got serious awhile back, the major line poles everything branches off of are huge, steel, built to survive really bad hurricanes.

 

[nickqt]

What might seem more "hilariously inept" is your implicit assumption that there is anywhere in this world - "first" or otherwise - where "almost all" of the electric grid has been buried. Believe it or not, there are sound apolitical cost/benefit reasons for this

I want to live in a first world country that invests in its own future. That includes shielding its electrical infrastructure from most external things that it can be protected from. The "costs" are purely political, as there are enough workers and materials to do so.

I understand that the infrastructure I'm talking about is going to cost more than almost anyone wants to spend, but that's not because it wouldn't be worth it short and long term. It costs more than most people want to spend, because most people aren't concerned with building and maintaining infrastructure, and instead only want to perform bare maintenance because money. The "but it costs more money than people want to spend" argument doesn't persuade me.

Why you're getting so angry about an infrastructure argument I don't know. Maybe because of your identification as an engineer? Don't worry Mr. Engineer, no politicians care what I think.

 

[IronWing]

Yeah. Those that live in the sticks made that choice to never engage in the same level of opportunity as the rest of us. Not like they have kids either, so no remote schooling needs there thank goodness.

People are portable. They can move to where supplying infrastructure makes economic sense, you know, in the cities.

 

[kage69]

People are portable. They can move to where supplying infrastructure makes economic sense, you know, in the cities.

So is network equipment and lines, and without involving the housing crisis. Giving people real internet makes economic sense.

Go boil some meat will ya.

 

[1prophet]

Rural white people spending more time on the internet? Isn't that what got us into this mess to begin with? Where would qanon be if rural white people had no internet access?

No, what got you in this mess is trickle down by the republicans, abandoning the working class for celebrities and every woke social justice movement by the democrats, brainwashing the general populace that cheaper is better and price only matters while providing little to no financial education on the ramifications of impulse buying consumerism, demanding living wages and benefits while being told that Americans who work with their hands are overpaid unless it is you of course, relative morality, immediate profit only matters/greed is good mentality, a perpetual drug war that has eroded constitutional rights, etc., etc.

those white people believing in qanon are no different than black people burning down their own neighborhood it is a symptom of a much bigger problem, useful idiots providing a distraction so the Wall Street goons can continually rape the country while the little people fight among themselves for an ever decreasing share of the American pie.

The Untouchables: How the Obama administration protected Wall Street from prosecutions | Glenn Greenwald

Glenn Greenwald: A new PBS Frontline report examines a profound failure of justice that should be causing serious social unrest

www.theguardian.com

The Untouchables | FRONTLINE

FRONTLINE examines why no Wall St. execs have faced fraud charges for the financial crisis

www.pbs.org

 

[kage69]

those white people believing in qanon are no different than black people burning down their own neighborhood it is a symptom of a much bigger problem, useful idiots providing a distraction so the Wall Street goons can continually rape the country while the little people fight among themselves for an ever decreasing share of the American pie.

Yeah no. The chaos of an enraged mob getting out of hand is in no way comparable to the organized batshit nutjobbery that produced a deadly insurrection at the capitol seeking to undermine a national election. One of those groups is open to sedition and treason, the other one isn't far as I can tell. When BLM storms the capitol waving an African flag and wants to execute people, then you'll have something to stand on.

Kinda sinks your whole post, you even going there.

 

[Ichinisan]

My electricity was out for almost a week after the tornado on Thursday night / Friday morning (around midnight). As of 15 minutes ago, Internet service has been out for a full week.

It has been rough. At least I have mobile data connection now that I can actually keep a phone charged.

 

[PowerEngineer]

Why you're getting so angry about an infrastructure argument I don't know. Maybe because of your identification as an engineer? Don't worry Mr. Engineer, no politicians care what I think.

Angry? No, mostly amused. I am still interested in finding out which countries in this world meet your standards for being "first world", and if there are none then perhaps there is a message in that for you.

When allocating investments in infrastructure you want the decision makers to put the money into areas that return the highest benefits. There are certainly going to be (and certainly should be) some infrastructure spending proposals that do not receive funding because the money is better spent elsewhere (or not spent at all).

As an example, copper conductors can be considered better for transmission lines than commonly used aluminum because of lower resistivity, but aluminum is a better choice given the difference in material cost. But if you really insist that costs are "purely political" then perhaps we should insist on silver or even gold conductors as both have even lower resistivities than copper.

If you are really arguing that any benefit - no matter how small - is always worth the cost - no matter how large, then I guess we are at an impasse and I will just continue to be amused.

 

[Fenixgoon]

Angry? No, mostly amused. I am still interested in finding out which countries in this world meet your standards for being "first world", and if there are none then perhaps there is a message in that for you.

When allocating investments in infrastructure you want the decision makers to put the money into areas that return the highest benefits. There are certainly going to be (and certainly should be) some infrastructure spending proposals that do not receive funding because the money is better spent elsewhere (or not spent at all).

As an example, copper conductors can be considered better for transmission lines than commonly used aluminum because of lower resistivity, but aluminum is a better choice given the difference in material cost. But if you really insist that costs are "purely political" then perhaps we should insist on silver or even gold conductors as both have even lower resistivities than copper.

If you are really arguing that any benefit - no matter how small - is always worth the cost - no matter how large, then I guess we are at an impasse and I will just continue to be amused.

I remember reading a case study that for overhead transmission lines, aluminum actually makes more sense despite the higher resistance. I'll have to see if I can't find it in one of my books

 

[Lost_in_the_HTTP]

People are portable. They can move to where supplying infrastructure makes economic sense, you know, in the cities.

Anybody that has ever lived in a city and moved to the country will never go back to a city. We learn to adapt.

Cities are terrible places.

 

[Fanatical Meat]

Anybody that has ever lived in a city and moved to the country will never go back to a city. We learn to adapt.

Cities are terrible places.

wrong

 

[ch33zw1z]

Anybody that has ever lived in a city and moved to the country will never go back to a city. We learn to adapt.

Cities are terrible places.

Thanks for you opinion. I venture into cities from my rural existence and remember how different it is. People, culture, activities, etc... I miss the convenience most of all.

I dont think cities are terrible places by default, but you definitely need to change your operating mode.

 

[IronWing]

Anybody that has ever lived in a city and moved to the country will never go back to a city. We learn to adapt.

Cities are terrible places.

That’s fine, just don’t expect the city folk to subsidize your country internet.

 

[zinfamous]

Anybody that has ever lived in a city and moved to the country will never go back to a city. We learn to adapt.

Cities are terrible places.

all of the conveniences that you enjoy in modern life, even in your rural, low-impact world, exist only because the cities make it possible.

 

[nickqt]

Angry? No, mostly amused. I am still interested in finding out which countries in this world meet your standards for being "first world", and if there are none then perhaps there is a message in that for you.

When allocating investments in infrastructure you want the decision makers to put the money into areas that return the highest benefits. There are certainly going to be (and certainly should be) some infrastructure spending proposals that do not receive funding because the money is better spent elsewhere (or not spent at all).

As an example, copper conductors can be considered better for transmission lines than commonly used aluminum because of lower resistivity, but aluminum is a better choice given the difference in material cost. But if you really insist that costs are "purely political" then perhaps we should insist on silver or even gold conductors as both have even lower resistivities than copper.

If you are really arguing that any benefit - no matter how small - is always worth the cost - no matter how large, then I guess we are at an impasse and I will just continue to be amused.

Yes Sir Mr. Engineer Sir, I'm totally arguing we should use platinum and diamonds for electric lines!

You getting stuck on whether or not other First World countries bury their electrical grid is absolutely irrelevant to my argument that I want to live in a First World country that buries its electrical lines. Again, the costs are purely political, and yes, I know I'm not a Mr. Engineer like you.

 

[Lost_in_the_HTTP]

Not sure which thread to put this on .....

FCC Earmarks $163M for Expanding Broadband Internet Access in 21 States

"More help is on the way to households without broadband," said FCC Acting Chairwoman Jessica Rosenworcel.

www.newsweek.com

I just hope it doesn't get wasted like some of the other programs have been.

 

[MrSquished]

Why give these fascist regressive fucks that worship a guy who tried to fuck over blue cities any goddamn money for broadband? All the majority of them are gonna do is watch election conspiracy theory videos, Q-Anon videos and Covid hoax videos in higher def anyway. Time to play in a way they understand.

Fuck those people.

Before Trump truly exposed these people for who they are, I would not have said something like this. But now, fuck 'em all.

 

[hal2kilo]

Rural white people spending more time on the internet? Isn't that what got us into this mess to begin with? Where would qanon be if rural white people had no internet access?

That's something I've wondered about. Seems a lot of them have no problem going to the deep nether regions of the internet.