British Soldiers 'Kicked Iraqi Prisoner to Death'

[Czar]

shocking story

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/0104-05.htm

Eight young Iraqis arrested in Basra were kicked and assaulted by British soldiers, one of them so badly that he died in British custody, according to military and medical records seen by The Independent on Sunday.

Amnesty International has urged its members to protest directly to Tony Blair about the death of Baha Mousa, the son of an Iraqi police colonel, and to demand an impartial and independent investigation into the apparent torture of the Basra prisoners. A major at 33 Field Hospital outside the southern Iraqi city said that one of the survivors suffered "acute renal failure" after "he was assaulted ... and sustained severe bruising to his upper abdomen, right side of chest, left forearms and left upper inner thigh".

British military authorities have offered Mr Mousa's relatives $8,000 (£4,500) in compensation, providing they are not held responsible for his death, but the young hotel receptionist's family plans to take the Ministry of Defense to court. His body was returned to them, covered in bruises and with his nose broken, after he and seven colleagues were arrested by British forces in Basra last September and held in military custody for three days.

One of the other workers has given a frightening account of their ordeal. Baha Mousa, he says, was tied and hooded and then repeatedly kicked and assaulted by British troops, begging all the while to have the hood removed because he could no longer breathe.

A death certificate provided by the British Army states that Baha Mousa had died of "asphyxia". A restricted medical document from a British hospital says a surviving prisoner, Kifah Taha, suffered his injuries "due to a severe beating". The IoS has copies of both documents.

After Mr Mousa's death, the Army's Special Investigation Branch opened an investigation. The Ministry of Defense told the IoS yesterday that there was "nothing in the records to suggest an inquiry was not still ongoing". But two soldiers who were arrested have since been released, and no charges have been made.

Mr Mousa's violent death left two children orphaned: his 22-year-old wife died of cancer shortly before his detention by British troops.

'The British said my son would be free soon. Three days later I had his body'

.......................

its alot longer and I recomend people reading it all

 

[tnitsuj]

Originally posted by: Czar
shocking story

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/0104-05.htm

Eight young Iraqis arrested in Basra were kicked and assaulted by British soldiers, one of them so badly that he died in British custody, according to military and medical records seen by The Independent on Sunday.

Amnesty International has urged its members to protest directly to Tony Blair about the death of Baha Mousa, the son of an Iraqi police colonel, and to demand an impartial and independent investigation into the apparent torture of the Basra prisoners. A major at 33 Field Hospital outside the southern Iraqi city said that one of the survivors suffered "acute renal failure" after "he was assaulted ... and sustained severe bruising to his upper abdomen, right side of chest, left forearms and left upper inner thigh".

British military authorities have offered Mr Mousa's relatives $8,000 (£4,500) in compensation, providing they are not held responsible for his death, but the young hotel receptionist's family plans to take the Ministry of Defense to court. His body was returned to them, covered in bruises and with his nose broken, after he and seven colleagues were arrested by British forces in Basra last September and held in military custody for three days.

One of the other workers has given a frightening account of their ordeal. Baha Mousa, he says, was tied and hooded and then repeatedly kicked and assaulted by British troops, begging all the while to have the hood removed because he could no longer breathe.

A death certificate provided by the British Army states that Baha Mousa had died of "asphyxia". A restricted medical document from a British hospital says a surviving prisoner, Kifah Taha, suffered his injuries "due to a severe beating". The IoS has copies of both documents.

After Mr Mousa's death, the Army's Special Investigation Branch opened an investigation. The Ministry of Defense told the IoS yesterday that there was "nothing in the records to suggest an inquiry was not still ongoing". But two soldiers who were arrested have since been released, and no charges have been made.

Mr Mousa's violent death left two children orphaned: his 22-year-old wife died of cancer shortly before his detention by British troops.

'The British said my son would be free soon. Three days later I had his body'

.......................

its alot longer and I recomend people reading it all

Yeah that happens sometimes, and some bleeding heart liberals always manage to harp on it. Saddam Husseins forces would have done a lot worse though.

 

[Czar]

two wrongs dont make a right tnitsuj

 

[tnitsuj]

Originally posted by: Czar
two wrongs dont make a right tnitsuj

Doesn't matter. As long as you can't prove a pattern and practice of this sort of behavior it isn't going to make a difference, and even then no one will probably care.

3 US Soldiers Disciplined for Abusing Iraqi POW's

(the above story will get 0 prime time news attention, I can pretty much guarantee that.)

No one cares. The above soldiers acted in an completely dishonorable way IMHO, and still recieved discharge under honorable conditions (I may not be fully up on US military discharge terms), but that doesn't seem like much of a punishment to me.

 

[xxxxxJohnGaltxxxxx]

It is always easy to criticize from the confines of our homes, which are made safe by those we criticize.

 

[Czar]

thats the worst part I agree, no one cares, like in that other story the family was offered $5000 in the end as a final settlement. This is something the military itself should take on very strong and they should be the ones fighting for an investigation.

 

[tnitsuj]

Originally posted by: xxxxxJohnGaltxxxxx
It is always easy to criticize from the confines of our homes, which are made safe by those we criticize.

We are made safer by soldiers acting like thugs? disobeying regulations and abusing prisoners in thier custody?

 

[tnitsuj]

Originally posted by: Czar
thats the worst part I agree, no one cares, like in that other story the family was offered $5000 in the end as a final settlement. This is something the military itself should take on very strong and they should be the ones fighting for an investigation.

They are investigating.

 

[HeroOfPellinor]

Originally posted by: Czar
thats the worst part I agree, no one cares, like in that other story the family was offered $5000 in the end as a final settlement. This is something the military itself should take on very strong and they should be the ones fighting for an investigation.

You realize, of course, that offering money to the family of the victim even if you aren't guilty of anything is a social moray in the Middle East, right?

There may be more to the story if I read the whole thing which I'm not going to, but, in any case, it was very nice of the original poster to add the other side of the story...I'm sure they didn't just pick some guy at random and start kicking his ass. If this is what your one sided presentations presents it to be, then, obviously is despicable, but, likely, there's an explanation which will make this seem like a less heinous act.

 

[alchemize]

Originally posted by: tnitsuj

Originally posted by: Czar
two wrongs dont make a right tnitsuj

Doesn't matter. As long as you can't prove a pattern and practice of this sort of behavior it isn't going to make a difference, and even then no one will probably care.

3 US Soldiers Disciplined for Abusing Iraqi POW's

(the above story will get 0 prime time news attention, I can pretty much guarantee that.)

No one cares. The above soldiers acted in an completely dishonorable way IMHO, and still recieved discharge under honorable conditions (I may not be fully up on US military discharge terms), but that doesn't seem like much of a punishment to me.

Whoa...caught this in the msnbc link:

The general found that Master Sgt. Lisa Marie Girman, 35, of Hazelton, Pa. knocked a prisoner to the ground, ?repeatedly kicking him in the groin, abdomen, and head, and encouraging her subordinate soldiers to do the same,? Harris said.

You don't often see a woman, much less a 35 year old one, kicking the sh*t out of a prisoner. I wonder what the prisoner did to get her so steamed

Edit: here's the only snippets I've found:

The soldiers have said they acted in self-defense, that conditions were chaotic at Camp Bucca, and that guards had been harassed and assaulted daily by unruly prisoners.

and this:

Spc. Diane Rider testified that Edmondson, a close friend of hers, told her the soldiers physically harmed a prisoner who was allegedly a rapist.

"She said they did it to teach the prisoner a lesson on how to treat women because he was charged with rape," she said.

Perhaps this is why the honourable discharge...everyone kicking him in the groin is the least they could do to a rapist.

 

[Dari]

Originally posted by: Czar
thats the worst part I agree, no one cares, like in that other story the family was offered $5000 in the end as a final settlement. This is something the military itself should take on very strong and they should be the ones fighting for an investigation.

Czar, how come we don't see you reporting the atrocities of Kim Jung Il, the ayatollahs, Hugo Chavez, Castro, or those of other outlaw regimes? You only seem to be picking up anomalies of respected governments, whether they be British or American.

EDIT: By the way, you forgot this little tidbit as well. You, in your mission, may not find it as important as the beatings of a few iraqis, but considering that these people lives on pennies a day, the robbery of a bank is paramount to mass murder.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
French soldiers face robbery claim

Four French soldiers are accused of robbing a bank in Ivory Coast they were supposed to be guarding, sources say.
The men have been placed under judicial investigation, one step short of formal charges, say judicial and military officials in Paris.

They are accused of taking 58,000 euros from the bank in the northern rebel-held town of Bouake.

The officials in Paris said the men were detained after allegedly trying to buy diamonds and gold.

The soldiers are accused of "aggravated theft" in November and December, sources say.

The soldiers are all said to come from the 126th Infantry Regiment, which was guarding the branch of the Central Bank of West African States. They are not being held in custody.

The branch had already been the scene of an attempted robbery and violent clashes between pro-government and rebel forces.

At least 23 people had died before the French moved in last September.

Four-thousand French troops are in Ivory Coast trying to ensure a fragile ceasefire holds.

 

[chess9]

They probably thought they were Dutch soccer fans.

-Robert

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: Dari

Originally posted by: Czar
thats the worst part I agree, no one cares, like in that other story the family was offered $5000 in the end as a final settlement. This is something the military itself should take on very strong and they should be the ones fighting for an investigation.

Czar, how come we don't see you reporting the atrocities of Kim Jung Il, the ayatollahs, Hugo Chavez, Castro, or those of other outlaw regimes?

So you are comparing the Brits to those Despots now?

 

[Dari]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: Dari

Originally posted by: Czar
thats the worst part I agree, no one cares, like in that other story the family was offered $5000 in the end as a final settlement. This is something the military itself should take on very strong and they should be the ones fighting for an investigation.

Czar, how come we don't see you reporting the atrocities of Kim Jung Il, the ayatollahs, Hugo Chavez, Castro, or those of other outlaw regimes?

So you are comparing the Brits to those Despots now?

No, I'm saying that he's selective in his criticism. Furthermore, while the despots torture with impunity, British/American "torture" accusations are very rare.

 

[SViscusi]

Originally posted by: Dari

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: Dari

Originally posted by: Czar
thats the worst part I agree, no one cares, like in that other story the family was offered $5000 in the end as a final settlement. This is something the military itself should take on very strong and they should be the ones fighting for an investigation.

Czar, how come we don't see you reporting the atrocities of Kim Jung Il, the ayatollahs, Hugo Chavez, Castro, or those of other outlaw regimes?

So you are comparing the Brits to those Despots now?

No, I'm saying that he's selective in his criticism. Furthermore, while the despots torture with impunity, British/American "torture" accusations are very rare.

We should be held to a higher standard than them. I expect nothing less from scum like those people, that's what makes them 'evil'. We're better than that and them in part because we don't act like them.

 

[Dari]

Originally posted by: SViscusi

Originally posted by: Dari

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: Dari

Originally posted by: Czar
thats the worst part I agree, no one cares, like in that other story the family was offered $5000 in the end as a final settlement. This is something the military itself should take on very strong and they should be the ones fighting for an investigation.

Czar, how come we don't see you reporting the atrocities of Kim Jung Il, the ayatollahs, Hugo Chavez, Castro, or those of other outlaw regimes?

So you are comparing the Brits to those Despots now?

No, I'm saying that he's selective in his criticism. Furthermore, while the despots torture with impunity, British/American "torture" accusations are very rare.

We should be held to a higher standard than them. I expect nothing less from scum like those people, that's what makes them 'evil'. We're better than that and them in part because we don't act like them.

So every accusation of "torture" should be broadcast globally as if it occured on a daily basis? What it does is exaggerate the norm, which is a rarity in itself, an anomaly.

 

[DealMonkey]

Originally posted by: xxxxxJohnGaltxxxxx
It is always easy to criticize from the confines of our homes, which are made safe by those we criticize.

It's so easy to sit in your comfy office and shrug your shoulders like nothing happened.

 

[DealMonkey]

Originally posted by: Dari
So every accusation of "torture" should be broadcast globally as if it occured on a daily basis? What it does is exaggerate the norm, which is a rarity in itself, an anomaly.

If it's truly so rare, you should be even more shocked and appalled, rather than just smoothing it over and acting like it's no big deal.

 

[rahvin]

Originally posted by: chess9
They probably thought they were Dutch soccer fans.

-Robert

Best post in this thread, although they would have been English soccer fans in my version.

 

[burnedout]

Originally posted by: tnitsuj

Originally posted by: xxxxxJohnGaltxxxxx
It is always easy to criticize from the confines of our homes, which are made safe by those we criticize.

We are made safer by soldiers acting like thugs? disobeying regulations and abusing prisoners in thier custody?

Soldiers don't normally act like "thugs" unless there is good reason. Soldiers, like the police, are people too. Emotions tend to override discipline under certain circumstances. When the balloon goes up, those nearby can easily lose their grasp on reason.

Incidents comparable to that mentioned in this thread unfortunately occur. But like the numerous other instances of police brutality here in the U.S. over the past 40 years, such incidents are the exception, not the rule.

What happened with the prisoners is certainly inexcusable. However, as Galt alludes, unless we have been in the same situation, under similar circumstances, we shouldn't so quickly condemn those who have. In other words, there are normally reasons why soldiers resort to such measures.

Originally posted by: Dari

Czar, how come we don't see you reporting the atrocities of Kim Jung Il, the ayatollahs, Hugo Chavez, Castro, or those of other outlaw regimes? You only seem to be picking up anomalies of respected governments, whether they be British or American.

Don't you know? Reporting the various screwups of developed countries, the U.S. and U.K. in particular, is considered much more "hip" nowadays.

Nevermind that good old Kim or Fidel or <insert name of favorite despot here> commits similar acts on a daily basis. In the eyes of the liberal sophists, those bastards are automatically forgiven! Therefore, WE are the damned.

 

[Czar]

dari,
how should I have posted this tidbit so it would make you happy?
should maybe the title have been "British Soldiers 'Kicked Iraqi Prisoner to Death' but North Korea is still much worse"?

 

[Witling]

This article is an illustration of one of the reasons why I'm quite anti-war (but I'm not a pacifist). In wars individuals do criminal acts, innocent people are always shot and killed or maimed, wrong targets are chosen, and friendly fire always kills some of the troops. And in saying this, I don't consider things like Grenada a war. All these shortcomings may be tolerable if the cause is great, but, in my book, the invasion of Iraq doesn't arise to those standards.

How is that search for WMD going?

 

[Dari]

Originally posted by: Czar
dari,
how should I have posted this tidbit so it would make you happy?
should maybe the title have been "British Soldiers 'Kicked Iraqi Prisoner to Death' but North Korea is still much worse"?

You could start by reporting all "atrocities", not just those accusation against American/British. Next, report grom reputable sources, not anti-american sites like commondreams.org.


That would be a start. Then, and only then, would I have any respect for your opinions.

EDIT: After taking a deeper look at that site, I'm starting to question your reputation, let alone your desperation in finding bad news about the United States and coalition forces.

 

[Czar]

dari,
this report is written by Robert Fisk for the independant, commondreams which I openly admit is very liberal but that does not invalidate Robert Fisk's reporting

then please if you are so concerned about not everything being reported here, please report yourself those articles you come across which makes other countries look bad and be openly ciritical of all sides like you want me to do

 

[xxxxxJohnGaltxxxxx]

Originally posted by: Czar


please report yourself those articles you come across which makes other countries look bad and be openly ciritical of all sides like you want me to do

..and run the risk of being a "basher." If it's not anti-U.S./Bush/Ashcroft, it's bashing in your make-believe world.