Britain and the US did everything to avoid a peaceful solution in Iraq and Afghanistan

GrGr

Diamond Member
Sep 25, 2003
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Dreamers and idiots

Britain and the US did everything to avoid a peaceful solution in Iraq and Afghanistan

George Monbiot
Tuesday November 11, 2003
The Guardian

Those who would take us to war must first shut down the public imagination. They must convince us that there is no other means of preventing invasion, or conquering terrorism, or even defending human rights. When information is scarce, imagination is easy to control. As intelligence gathering and diplomacy are conducted in secret, we seldom discover - until it is too late - how plausible the alternatives may be.
So those of us who called for peace before the wars with Iraq and Afghanistan were mocked as effeminate dreamers. The intelligence our governments released suggested that Saddam Hussein and the Taliban were immune to diplomacy or negotiation. Faced with such enemies, what would we do, the hawks asked? And our responses felt timid beside the clanking rigours of war. To the columnist David Aaronovitch, we were "indulging... in a cosmic whinge". To the Daily Telegraph, we had become "Osama bin Laden's useful idiots".

Had the options been as limited as the western warlords and their bards suggested, this might have been true. But, as many of us suspected at the time, we were lied to. Most of the lies are now familiar: there appear to have been no weapons of mass destruction and no evidence to suggest that, as President Bush claimed in March, Saddam had "trained and financed... al-Qaida". Bush and Blair, as their courtship of the president of Uzbekistan reveals, appear to possess no genuine concern for the human rights of foreigners.

But a further, and even graver, set of lies is only now beginning to come to light. Even if all the claims Bush and Blair made about their enemies and their motives had been true, and all their objectives had been legal and just, there may still have been no need to go to war. For, as we discovered last week, Saddam proposed to give Bush and Blair almost everything they wanted before a shot had been fired. Our governments appear both to have withheld this information from the public and to have lied to us about the possibilities for diplomacy.

Over the four months before the coalition forces invaded Iraq, Saddam's government made a series of increasingly desperate offers to the United States. In December, the Iraqi intelligence services approached Vincent Cannistraro, the CIA's former head of counter-terrorism, with an offer to prove that Iraq was not linked to the September 11 attacks, and to permit several thousand US troops to enter the country to look for weapons of mass destruction. If the object was regime change, then Saddam, the agents claimed, was prepared to submit himself to internationally monitored elections within two years. According to Mr Cannistraro, these proposals reached the White House, but were "turned down by the president and vice-president".

By February, Saddam's negotiators were offering almost everything the US government could wish for: free access to the FBI to look for weapons of mass destruction wherever it wanted, support for the US position on Israel and Palestine, even rights over Iraq's oil. Among the people they contacted was Richard Perle, the security adviser who for years had been urging a war with Iraq. He passed their offers to the CIA. Last week he told the New York Times that the CIA had replied: "Tell them that we will see them in Baghdad".

Saddam Hussein, in other words, appears to have done everything possible to find a diplomatic alternative to the impending war, and the US government appears to have done everything necessary to prevent one. This is the opposite to what we were told by George Bush and Tony Blair. On March 6, 13 days before the war began, Bush said to journalists: "I want to remind you that it's his choice to make as to whether or not we go to war. It's Saddam's choice. He's the person that can make the choice of war and peace. Thus far, he's made the wrong choice."

Ten days later, Blair told a press conference: "We have provided the right diplomatic way through this, which is to lay down a clear ultimatum to Saddam: cooperate or face disarmament by force... all the way through we have tried to provide a diplomatic solution." On March 17, Bush claimed that "should Saddam Hussein choose confrontation, the American people can know that every measure has been taken to avoid war". All these statements are false.

The same thing happened before the war with Afghanistan. On September 20 2001, the Taliban offered to hand Osama bin Laden to a neutral Islamic country for trial if the US presented them with evidence that he was responsible for the attacks on New York and Washington. The US rejected the offer. On October 1, six days before the bombing began, they repeated it, and their representative in Pakistan told reporters: "We are ready for negotiations. It is up to the other side to agree or not. Only negotiation will solve our problems." Bush was asked about this offer at a press conference the following day. He replied: "There's no negotiations. There's no calendar. We'll act on [sic] our time."

On the same day, Tony Blair, in his speech to the Labour party conference, ridiculed the idea that we could "look for a diplomatic solution". "There is no diplomacy with Bin Laden or the Taliban regime... I say to the Taliban: surrender the terrorists; or surrender power. It's your choice." Well, they had just tried to exercise that choice, but George Bush had rejected it.

Of course, neither Bush nor Blair had any reason to trust the Taliban or Saddam - these people were, after all, negotiating under duress. But neither did they have any need to trust them. In both cases they could have presented their opponents with a deadline for meeting the concessions they had offered. Nor could the allies argue that the offers were not worth considering because they were inadequate: both the Taliban and Saddam were attempting to open negotiations, not to close them - there appeared to be plenty of scope for bargaining. In other words, peaceful resolutions were rejected before they were attempted. What this means is that even if all the other legal tests for these wars had been met (they had not), both would still have been waged in defiance of international law. The charter of the United Nations specifies that "the parties to any dispute...shall, first of all, seek a solution by negotiation".

None of this matters to the enthusiasts for war. That these conflicts were unjust and illegal, that they killed or maimed tens of thousands of civilians, is irrelevant, as long as their aims were met. So the hawks should ponder this. Had a peaceful resolution of these disputes been attempted, Bin Laden might now be in custody, Iraq might be a pliant and largely peaceful nation finding its own way to democracy, and the prevailing sentiment within the Muslim world might be sympathy for the United States, rather than anger and resentment.

Now who are the dreamers and the useful idiots, and who the pragmatists?
 

Sultan

Banned
Feb 21, 2002
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No WMD found, no links to Al-Qaeda.

Everyone who thinks this war was about oil, say Aye

Everyone who thinks this war was about anything understandable, I'd really like to hear your opinion.

"Liberation" minded people, please dont bother. I can clearly see what kind of "liberation" the US Armed Forces has provided for the Iraqi people. Dropping 500lb bombs in Tikrit! Sheesh!
 

B00ne

Platinum Member
May 21, 2001
2,168
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How dare you say they are not liberated...
Some are liberated off life. The economy is in the gutter so ppl are liberated of the boring everyday tasks instead the got the exciting new task of fighting for suvival on a daily basis. The cities are in ruins - so they were liberated off their depressing confining low ceiling stone enclosures and can finally experience the freedom of the skies. Kids can finally be happy they were liberated from the hardships of having to go to school - no they are free to roam around instead of sitting in some authoritarian school like they had to before - life is great...
;)
 

Skyclad1uhm1

Lifer
Aug 10, 2001
11,383
87
91
Just read in the newspaper this morning that 4 regions of one of Afghanistans provinces are back in the hands of the Taliban. Guess the US soldiers in Afghanistan are too busy combing the mountains for Al Qaida members to actually do something useful like getting the country back on its feet.

If we let the people have far more chaos after kicking out the Taliban, and do nothing to solve their problems, they will welcome the Taliban back in a few months time. Life sucked for them then, but at least there was some sort of order.
 

smashp

Platinum Member
Aug 30, 2003
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The Iraq and Afghan Campaigns were nothing more than a ruse to gain access and control to Natural resources in these countries.

Control of the Transportaion and Drilling of these resources by the US was the Ultimate Goal.

As long As The United states controls Iraq, the Threat of exclusive Oil contracts being made with the Eu or Trade being done in the Euro, is minimal.

 
Oct 3, 2003
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I don't like the SUV's, either, they tailgate and speed! And pollute!
I'm from Texas - I know! :)
Invading Afghan was a good move, invading Iraq not so smart.
Afgan is where Osama is actually hiding out, and he is the one we
want to kill.
G.W. Bushy should have given those Iraq invading troops horses,
turbans, Ak's, and turned 250.000 of them loose in the mountanis of Afgan -
Then, we put Osama' s head on a stake, in front of the white house!
 

TheCorm

Diamond Member
Nov 5, 2000
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I was in support of the conflict in Iraq....now I just shrug on the whole matter
 

privatebreyer

Member
Nov 28, 2002
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The UN said there were buckets of unaccounted for WMD. We assumed they were weaponized and ready for use. We haven't found them.

That still makes them unaccounted for.
 

Tripleshot

Elite Member
Jan 29, 2000
7,218
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Originally posted by: privatebreyer
The UN said there were buckets of unaccounted for WMD. We assumed they were weaponized and ready for use. We haven't found them.

That still makes them unaccounted for.

Where is my "unaccounted for" million bucks? It's unnaccounted for, so I must still be a millionaire.

We all know what "assume" means, don't we?
rolleye.gif


 

rjain

Golden Member
May 1, 2003
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Originally posted by: B00ne
The economy is in the gutter so ppl are liberated of the boring everyday tasks instead the got the exciting new task of fighting for suvival on a daily basis.
Hey, they got there before us. Some on these forums despise the fact that we're losing manufacturing jobs and moving to information jobs. We've just promoted the Iraqis to the pinnacle of economic development!
 

firewall

Platinum Member
Oct 11, 2001
2,099
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Oil politics........
Gah.....
Go exploit alternative means. The money spent on the war could had been better used on finding alternative energy means. Perhaps Bush and Blair consider war as a method of reducing world population?
This whole world needs a French Revolution and ridding of the current leadership of all arrogant superpowers.
 

privatebreyer

Member
Nov 28, 2002
195
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Originally posted by: asadasif
Oil politics........
Gah.....
Go exploit alternative means. The money spent on the war could had been better used on finding alternative energy means. Perhaps Bush and Blair consider war as a method of reducing world population?
This whole world needs a French Revolution and ridding of the current leadership of all arrogant superpowers.

Yes, it will no doubt have the same result.
 

Lonyo

Lifer
Aug 10, 2002
21,938
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Originally posted by: Tripleshot
Originally posted by: privatebreyer
The UN said there were buckets of unaccounted for WMD. We assumed they were weaponized and ready for use. We haven't found them.

That still makes them unaccounted for.

Where is my "unaccounted for" million bucks? It's unnaccounted for, so I must still be a millionaire.

We all know what "assume" means, don't we?
rolleye.gif

assume makes an ass out of Bush.
 

privatebreyer

Member
Nov 28, 2002
195
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Originally posted by: Tripleshot
Originally posted by: privatebreyer
The UN said there were buckets of unaccounted for WMD. We assumed they were weaponized and ready for use. We haven't found them.

That still makes them unaccounted for.

Where is my "unaccounted for" million bucks? It's unnaccounted for, so I must still be a millionaire.

Did your million bucks ever exist in the first place?
 

rjain

Golden Member
May 1, 2003
1,475
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0
Originally posted by: privatebreyer

Did your million bucks ever exist in the first place?
Did Iraq's WMD ever exist in the first place or were the numbers made up by workers to impress superiors?
 

Sultan

Banned
Feb 21, 2002
2,297
1
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The UN said there were buckets of unaccounted for WMD. We assumed they were weaponized and ready for use. We haven't found them.

That still makes them unaccounted for.

privatebreyer, a war supporter gone nuts. I slept with your mom and you was born. You're alive and accounted for.

Get some rationality son.

The war was not about assumptions. Give me one quote from a UN official which stated there were buckets of unaccounted for WMD
 

rjain

Golden Member
May 1, 2003
1,475
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I guess we have free license to occupy Iraq indefinitely, "searching" for WMDs, by privatebreyer's philosophy, then. :)

We should apply the same philosophy to Enron's "unaccounted" for dollars. ;)
 

AEB

Senior member
Jun 12, 2003
681
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Ok look i dont know haw many times i have to say this but please read it carefully.

Resolution UN resolution 1441(or whatever) said that if any banned or illegal weapons were found in iraq there would be immediate action.
read
This
Look at all the resolutions the UN passed and did not act on. THe united states was preventing the UN from becoming worthless (all talk no action) Keep in mind we HAVE found missles that go over the legal range. No matter how big you think this is it clearly violates 1441 and a dozen other resolutions. The US was tired of being jerked around if anything.

OK thank you for reading and now you know this was was justified by the UN resolutions at least. So quit your whinning
 

firewall

Platinum Member
Oct 11, 2001
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Fine, AEB, then the action to be taken should had been decided by the approval of the whole UN security council body. If i remember correctly, only US and Britain (with a very forced and pressured coalition) took an action which was oppossed all over the world and by other members of the security council. Why aren't other members of the UN willing to send their troops to Iraq if it was a joint strike by the coalition?

Have you looked at all the resolutions on Israel, Palestine, Kashmir and other countries and territories? Should force and arms be used to make the concerned countries comply with the resolutions? Why doesn't the US uses arms against these countries and territories to make them comply with the resolutions?

Also, why isn't the US then tired of being jerked around by N.Korea and declares an all out strike on it? This is only because they have the power to retaliate? If so, then US is not worthy of the title of superpower if it starts skipping with pride and joy on winning an extremely one sided war. Anyone can take a candy out of an year old child! Its no big deal.

So why don't you now quit your whinning????
 

DT4K

Diamond Member
Jan 21, 2002
6,944
3
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Wow, what a liberal jerk-fest.
Hope you guys are getting off at least.

Some of you should really do a little reading before making $hit up.

Myth: Iraq was complying with the U.N. resolutions.
Fact: 1441 clearly stated that Iraq had been repeatedly and continuously violating previous resolutions. It stated that any act of deception of failure to turn over complete records was considered a violation and would be handled with serious consequences. What those consequences should be was open to interpretation.

Myth: The US said they had proof that Iraq had WMD.
Fact: The US said they had evidence indicating the storage and production of WMD. A little different.

Myth: Nobody knows if Iraq ever had WMD.
Fact: Iraqi stockpiles of chemical and biological weapons, along with nuclear weapons research and development programs was clearly documented by the UN.

Myth: We went to war because we claimed Iraq had WMD.
Fact: We went to war because everyone knew Iraq had WMD in the past and they refused to provide evidence of it's destruction as they were required to do so by 12 years worth of UN resolutions.

Myth: The US went to war unilaterally.
Fact: There were over 40 countries publicly supporting this decision including UK, Italy, Spain, Japan, Australia, and most of the Eastern European governments.

Myth: Russia, France, and Germany opposed the war because they wanted peace.
Fact: They opposed the war because they stood to lose a ton of money in their economic dealings with Saddam.
 

chess9

Elite member
Apr 15, 2000
7,748
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Shanti:

One thing isn't a myth: The United Nations did not authorize our incursion into Iraq. Why would you continually refer to U.N. resolutions when the mere existence of U.N. authority is the strongest argument against the U.S. and its "40 allies" (there's another laugher)?

I don't have a clue why you would support this war, but you might try coming up with something more pursuasive than U.N. Resolution 1441.

For what it's worth, I'm not much of a liberal. At 60, no one lets you be a liberal. :) Anyway, I'm too gruff and crusty to be a liberal....

-Robert

 

CADsortaGUY

Lifer
Oct 19, 2001
25,162
1
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www.ShawCAD.com
Originally posted by: chess9
Shanti:

One thing isn't a myth: The United Nations did not authorize our incursion into Iraq. Why would you continually refer to U.N. resolutions when the mere existence of U.N. authority is the strongest argument against the U.S. and its "40 allies" (there's another laugher)?

I don't have a clue why you would support this war, but you might try coming up with something more pursuasive than U.N. Resolution 1441.

For what it's worth, I'm not much of a liberal. At 60, no one lets you be a liberal. :) Anyway, I'm too gruff and crusty to be a liberal....

-Robert

While there is no doubt the UN didn't/wouldn't have explicit authorized the invasion - it doesn't mean that basing our reasoning for the war in it's resolutions isn't viable. So inaction by a supposed "world governance" means that our hands are tied?

Oh, and FWIW -I know quite a few "crusty old Liberals";) but then again I know a bunch of baby fresh idealistic ones too.:) There is nothing wrong with being a Liberal(if you are a Liberal) but it is increasingly obvious that people don't wish to associate and call themselves "Liberal" although their positions are the same old ones that Liberals have trumpeted for years.

CkG