Bridge over Mississippi river collapses in MN

[ProfJohn]

Like many on P&N I am a news junky and the first hand accounts coming are pretty amazing.

Cars flying through the air, a pick up landing upside down on another car and both people seemed to have survived etc.

What is very interesting is the way that everyone described how quiet it was for the first 30 seconds or so after the bridge fell. Being there had to be surreal.

 

[theeedude]

Can they take that bridge to nowhere those Alaska republicans wanted to build and instead build it in MN to replace that collapsed bridge?

 

[imported_Shivetya]

Originally posted by: senseamp
Can they take that bridge to nowhere those Alaska republicans wanted to build and instead build it in MN to replace that collapsed bridge?

or the 2.4 BILLION dollars of pork stuffed into this latest healthcare bill?



I figure Minnesota needed more stadiums than bridges.

 

[GoPackGo]

I was listening to the Radio yesterday and "they" said this could be the beginning. Much of our infrastructure is aging.

Roads and Bridges are usually updated / repaired with some regularity.

But what about the aging water pipes and sewers, and the gas lines and such...???

 

[GoPackGo]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Yep, keep sending billions and billions overseas for false wars:

8-2-2007 Bridge collapse a wake-up call for politicians

U.S. politicians on Thursday treated the collapse of a highway bridge that killed or injured dozens of people as a jarring wake-up call to fix the nation's aging roads and bridges

"A bridge in America just shouldn't fall down," said Sen. Amy Klobuchar, a Minnesota Democrat at a news conference in Minneapolis. "We have to get to the bottom of this."

Rep. James Oberstar, the Minnesota Democrat who chairs the House Transportation and Infrastructure Committee, blamed President George W. Bush's administration for shortchanging road and bridge repair in a highway funding bill two years ago.

Bush, he said, "failed to support a robust investment in surface transportation," adding the president insisted on only $2 billion a year for bridge reconstruction when lawmakers were pushing for $3 billion a year.

Funding it all would require trillions of dollars. The only way to address the issue is to prioritize, he said, but then politics comes into play.

"The fact of the matter is nobody gets their name on a bridge repair," Harries said. "You build a bridge, you get your name on it."
=========================================

Oh look, a politician saying it's all George Bush's fault.

That seems to be the default answer....

Well MNDoT new about the problems and decided to not fix it.

Now someone there will pay the price.

Would an extra billion have kept this bridge up? I doubt it.

 

[imported_Shivetya]

Originally posted by: JulesMaximus
Yeah, our infrastructure is falling apart here yet we're off spending billions fighting unwinnable wars in the middle east...good job guys. You're really doing a bang up job. :thumbsup:

Are you so naive to think those billions going to Iraq would have really gone to fixing bridges?


Sorry, but Minnesota was wasting money instead of fixing bridges. No amount of Federal Money is going to make a state do what it is SUPPOSED to do.

Any reply decrying Iraq or Bush for this problem is just an example of people who can think no other way. Simply put, they are losers. They are so wrapped up in ignorance and hate they cannot think of anyone else to blame but Bush. Its the damn mindset, no one or no group is responsible for their action or inaction, its always someone else. Yet these same twits wonder why we are saddled with the politicians we have? Sheesh.



As for MN and their money

• The state bailout of the Minneapolis Teacher's Retirement Fund, which puts state taxpayers on the hook for $972 million in unfunded liabilities
  A new $776 million Twins Stadium to be paid for with a Hennepin County sales tax increase -- (approved by state legislators with no voter referendum)
  $97.5 million for the Northstar Commuter Rail line
  $34 million in subsidies to ethanol producers that have seen a 300 percent increase in profits in the last year
  $30 million for bear exhibits at the Minnesota and Como Zoos
  $12 million to renovate the Shubert Theater in downtown Minneapolis
  $1 million for a replica Vikings ship in Moorhead
  $500,000 for a skating rink in Roseville
  $310,000 for a Shakespeare festival in Winona
  $129,000 for state art grants for North Dakota museums and theaters

 

[Genx87]

Oberstar is a douchebag plain and simple. This bridge has had issues since Bush senior. If Oberstar was so worried about it, why hasnt he as being on the Infrastructure committee addressed it? The answer, he is a typical opportunist exploiting a tragedy to try and score some political points.

 

[Genx87]

Originally posted by: GoPackGo

Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Yep, keep sending billions and billions overseas for false wars:

8-2-2007 Bridge collapse a wake-up call for politicians

U.S. politicians on Thursday treated the collapse of a highway bridge that killed or injured dozens of people as a jarring wake-up call to fix the nation's aging roads and bridges

"A bridge in America just shouldn't fall down," said Sen. Amy Klobuchar, a Minnesota Democrat at a news conference in Minneapolis. "We have to get to the bottom of this."

Rep. James Oberstar, the Minnesota Democrat who chairs the House Transportation and Infrastructure Committee, blamed President George W. Bush's administration for shortchanging road and bridge repair in a highway funding bill two years ago.

Bush, he said, "failed to support a robust investment in surface transportation," adding the president insisted on only $2 billion a year for bridge reconstruction when lawmakers were pushing for $3 billion a year.

Funding it all would require trillions of dollars. The only way to address the issue is to prioritize, he said, but then politics comes into play.

"The fact of the matter is nobody gets their name on a bridge repair," Harries said. "You build a bridge, you get your name on it."
=========================================

Oh look, a politician saying it's all George Bush's fault.

That seems to be the default answer....

Well MNDoT new about the problems and decided to not fix it.

Now someone there will pay the price.

Would an extra billion have kept this bridge up? I doubt it.

It wouldnt have because that 1 billion would have been spent on their new wet dream called Light Rail, which services about .00002% of the population.
I see the politicians and media are already clamoring for a revisit to a gas tax hike in MN. I am sure 100% of the money generated from that hike will go into road and bridge repair\construction and not mass transit.

/puke

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: Lemon law
Lets put this all in perspective. Anytime that we build things out of hard and brittle materials, be those materials hardened steel, cement, or glass, these materials cannot deform to adjust for strain, and there is always a finite chance they will fail without any warning. I think the news cited a stat of something like 38,000 bridges in this country with an equal or worse inspection grade. Yet every year only a very tiny fraction of them will fail. And something on the order of less than a 100 killed will end of being the butcher bill here. And that hardly equals a few days of those killed in auto accidents. Its just the gory and unexpected aspects that grabs us. In a few days this will be off the national news. And it will be business as usual for our nations crumbling infrastructure as we learn nothing from the obvious lessons.

Build em cheap and bury the dead bodies deep is always standard operating principle. And no matter how many times we learn our lesson, build it cheap is cheaper.

Posts like this upset me in the way that they leverage tragedy for the sake of agenda and play off public ignorance at the same time.
It is impossible to engineer any project without factoring in costs. Cost will always be a factor in long-term reliability. Consider this a law of nature.
Rolls-Royce proved way back in fscking 1907 that an automobile could be built to last forever. However, scarcely anyone could afford such a vehicle, then or now. The same logic applies to our infrastructure.

 

[CycloWizard]

Originally posted by: GoPackGo
I was listening to the Radio yesterday and "they" said this could be the beginning. Much of our infrastructure is aging.

Roads and Bridges are usually updated / repaired with some regularity.

But what about the aging water pipes and sewers, and the gas lines and such...???

Sewage lines are maintained regularly. Large cities generally have an entire division dedicated to this work, as a decent-sized city has thousands of miles of sewer lines. If they collapsed and backed up, then you would have sewage in the groundwater/in neighbordhoods. If the sewer lines didn't leak at least a little, the wastewater plants wouldn't work anymore since wastewater treatment processes actually use the bacteria from soil that infiltrates into the sewer lines. I worked at the wastewater plant in Dayton, OH and the wastewater treatment plant was one division with about 100 employees, while the sewer maintenance group was an entirely different division with around 300 employees IIRC.

Gas lines are private, so it's hard to say what the state of the infrastructure is. However, if the lines were corroded or broken to the point of leaking, you would know. Natural gas is mixed with mercaptains (very smelly stuff - skunk odor is one species of mercaptain) such that you will smell it if it leaks, even if the leak is very small.

I'm more concerned with the electrical infrastructure, which is also privately owned. At least here in St. Louis, it fails somewhat regularly. All of the lines are above-ground and conveniently located under large trees on pretty much every street. Power goes out in the winter when it snows, but everyone here has gas heat so it's not such a big deal. Power goes out in the summer whenever there's a thunderstorm, which is fairly often. It's really hot here in the summer, so people die. Then Ameren takes 2 weeks to fix it, then jacks up the price of electricity due to their lost revenues from the downtime when no one had power. That's one monopoly that should be broken, at least here.

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: CycloWizard

I'm more concerned with the electrical infrastructure, which is also privately owned.

At least here in St. Louis, it fails somewhat regularly.

Power goes out in the summer whenever there's a thunderstorm, which is fairly often.

It's really hot here in the summer, so people die.

Then Ameren takes 2 weeks to fix it, then jacks up the price of electricity due to their lost revenues from the downtime when no one had power.

That's one monopoly that should be broken, at least here.

I thought you were one of those that lives in Utopia with absolutely nothing wrong or broken???

 

[dmcowen674]

8-3-2007Finger pointing begins in Minneapolis bridge collapse

Politicians trying to account for one of the worst bridge collapses in U.S. history cast blame ranging from engineering faults to the Iraq war on Friday

Engineers had decided to periodically inspect the steel superstructure beneath the Interstate 35W bridge and bolt on reinforcing plates where any flaws were found. But that work, which Pawlenty said fit in the state's budget, was postponed by resurfacing and repair work that was going on when the bridge buckled and fell.

It is striking the bridge was carrying a load of traffic it was not designed for," said the Democratic Speaker of Minnesota's House, State Rep. Margaret Anderson Kelliher.

Estimates ranged as high as $500 million to rebuild it.

Pawlenty's critics blamed him for vetoing a state gas-tax increase that would have boosted funding for construction projects.===============================================

Would that be Republicans that critiziced a tax veto???

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674
8-3-2007Finger pointing begins in Minneapolis bridge collapse

Politicians trying to account for one of the worst bridge collapses in U.S. history cast blame ranging from engineering faults to the Iraq war on Friday

Engineers had decided to periodically inspect the steel superstructure beneath the Interstate 35W bridge and bolt on reinforcing plates where any flaws were found. But that work, which Pawlenty said fit in the state's budget, was postponed by resurfacing and repair work that was going on when the bridge buckled and fell.

It is striking the bridge was carrying a load of traffic it was not designed for," said the Democratic Speaker of Minnesota's House, State Rep. Margaret Anderson Kelliher.

Estimates ranged as high as $500 million to rebuild it.

Pawlenty's critics blamed him for vetoing a state gas-tax increase that would have boosted funding for construction projects.===============================================

Would that be Republicans that critiziced a tax veto???

No, that would be the "haven't met a tax increase they didn't like"-Democrats that are trying to criticize a Republican Governor who vetoed a tax-hike.
http://minnesota.publicradio.o...web/2007/05/15/gastax/

Also you seemed to miss this in YOUR link:

Department of Transportation Secretary Mary Peters said billions of dollars were available for road and bridge repairs.

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

No, that would be the "haven't met a tax increase they didn't like"-Democrats that are trying to criticize a Republican Governor who vetoed a tax-hike.
http://minnesota.publicradio.o...web/2007/05/15/gastax/

Also you seemed to miss this in YOUR link:

Department of Transportation Secretary Mary Peters said billions of dollars were available for road and bridge repairs.

Ah gotcha thanks, Republican Governor fault.

I'm sure he sent a ton of state money to Iraq for his buddy Bush.

I'm sure Mary forgot to mention that money was earmarked for Iraq bridge repair after they were blown up.

 

[Don Vito Corleone]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

No, that would be the "haven't met a tax increase they didn't like"-Democrats that are trying to criticize a Republican Governor who vetoed a tax-hike.
http://minnesota.publicradio.o...web/2007/05/15/gastax/

Also you seemed to miss this in YOUR link:

Department of Transportation Secretary Mary Peters said billions of dollars were available for road and bridge repairs.

Ah gotcha thanks, Republican Governor fault.

I'm sure he sent a ton of state money to Iraq for his buddy Bush.

I'm sure Mary forgot to mention that money was earmarked for Iraq bridge repair after they were blown up.

On behalf of my fellow Minnesotans, just STOP this idiocy and shut the hell up for once. I have heard roughly 1,000 times more of your paranoiac bullshit than I ever needed or wanted to. Please just shut your whining, Chicken Little trap for once.

 

[nick1985]

Has this thread really devolved into a republican/bush bashing thread?

lol???

 

[Genx87]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674
8-3-2007Finger pointing begins in Minneapolis bridge collapse

Politicians trying to account for one of the worst bridge collapses in U.S. history cast blame ranging from engineering faults to the Iraq war on Friday

Engineers had decided to periodically inspect the steel superstructure beneath the Interstate 35W bridge and bolt on reinforcing plates where any flaws were found. But that work, which Pawlenty said fit in the state's budget, was postponed by resurfacing and repair work that was going on when the bridge buckled and fell.

It is striking the bridge was carrying a load of traffic it was not designed for," said the Democratic Speaker of Minnesota's House, State Rep. Margaret Anderson Kelliher.

Estimates ranged as high as $500 million to rebuild it.

Pawlenty's critics blamed him for vetoing a state gas-tax increase that would have boosted funding for construction projects.===============================================

Would that be Republicans that critiziced a tax veto???

Bunch of crap but not surpriseing you would buy into it. That gas tax hike would have funded mass transit, not construction or repair jobs. They passed an amendment last Fall to take all of the vehicle licensing fee's. They sold people on the plan by claiming it would be for road construction expansion. Failed to show the true colors of the law which was to fund mass transit, which it is going to do.

Our transporation budget in MN is about 2.3 billion I believe. 1-1.2 of that goes into public mass transit. There is a funding issue, but it isnt because we arent spending enough. It is becuase we arent spending it in the right places.

 

[ericlp]

Yes it has... I think we should have given more $$$ to highways roads and bridges. It was bound to happen. We have been neglecting this issue for way too long. I've said it before and I'll say it again. Bring the troops home and lets spend some money on OUR OWN PROBLEMS right here in this country. We worry WAY to MUCH about the out side when we should be caring for our selves... Education, Roads, Alternative Energy, Science, Math, Engineering.... Shouldn't the problems in the USA come FIRST???????

I'm surprised this has not happened sooner... I was watching the news and they showed a lot of problem bridges elsewhere, some with 2 by fours for support! Sheesh, have we really let it go that bad back to a third world nation? I do blame the president tho, since he is spending our money like no tomorrow and it would be nice to spend some money on us here back at home... Terrorist this terror that... Yeah...yeah...yeah... Enough already it's getting way too old...

 

[BarneyFife]

I work for the DOT and there is a huge funding issue. We have 2 bridge inspectors in charge of 1500 bridges because we don't have the money to hire anyone else. Also, we are pushing back projects because of the lack of funding. I know people will start blaming the engineers but there is only so much we can do when we don't have the manpower and the $$$. Too bad all of our money is in Iraq.

 

[Zedtom]

I had a conversation with a friend in St. Paul who said that highway construction projects in the state of Minnesota are all under the purview of the state itself. Due to the harsh winters and short construction schedule during warm weather, the state basically runs all the projects. In almost every other state a contract is bid upon, and the winner of the contract runs their own show. In Minnesota, the state fast tracks all construction to utilize materials and labor where they are needed most.

If anyone works for MinnDOT or in highway construction in Minnesota, perhaps they can clarify this.

My point is that when it comes down to focusing blame, (as we are seeing as I write this), the state is going to have to look at their own system of management to see where the supervision of bridge construction, maintenance and inspections is accountable for mistakes.

 

[IGBT]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Yep, keep sending billions and billions overseas for false wars:

8-2-2007 Bridge collapse a wake-up call for politicians

U.S. politicians on Thursday treated the collapse of a highway bridge that killed or injured dozens of people as a jarring wake-up call to fix the nation's aging roads and bridges

"A bridge in America just shouldn't fall down," said Sen. Amy Klobuchar, a Minnesota Democrat at a news conference in Minneapolis. "We have to get to the bottom of this."

Rep. James Oberstar, the Minnesota Democrat who chairs the House Transportation and Infrastructure Committee, blamed President George W. Bush's administration for shortchanging road and bridge repair in a highway funding bill two years ago.

Bush, he said, "failed to support a robust investment in surface transportation," adding the president insisted on only $2 billion a year for bridge reconstruction when lawmakers were pushing for $3 billion a year.

Funding it all would require trillions of dollars. The only way to address the issue is to prioritize, he said, but then politics comes into play.

"The fact of the matter is nobody gets their name on a bridge repair," Harries said. "You build a bridge, you get your name on it."
=========================================

Oh look, a politician saying it's all George Bush's fault.

..so predictable. It wasn't four minutes after the Minneapolis bridge collapse that the kook left-wing blogs started pointing fingers at President Bush. The Democrats and misery milkers in the Media quickly followed, blaming the war in Iraq and tax cuts for the disaster. Everything is a zero sum game to them, but the truth is that most of the states are awash in money. The state of Minnesota is building new stadiums and funding zoo exhibits rather than fix bridges. How is that the fault of our being in Iraq? Barney Frank says the bridge collapse teaches us that we have to "pool our resources." That's code lingo for "raise taxes." Many bridges are "Districts" and charge tolls above and beyond what it takes to maintain the bridge. They also have "bridge directors" who collect huge salarys and benefits. They also collect state funding for maintenance..so where's all the money going?? Not the bridges.

 

[ProfJohn]

Originally posted by: BarneyFife
I work for the DOT and there is a huge funding issue. We have 2 bridge inspectors in charge of 1500 bridges because we don't have the money to hire anyone else. Also, we are pushing back projects because of the lack of funding. I know people will start blaming the engineers but there is only so much we can do when we don't have the manpower and the $$$. Too bad all of our money is in Iraq.

You guys need to stop repeating that BS line.

As a country we spend over $300 billion a year on Medicaid.
In Fiscal Year 2008 we will spend $454 billion on Medicare, an increase of $28 billion over the previous year. (That increase would build 10 new bridges.)
We will also spend $36.7 billion on the food stamp program and $5.5 billion for the WIC program.

That adds up to nearly $800 billion in spending, and that is on just four programs. That is also eight times what we are spending in Iraq and about double the non-Iraq defense budget.

If we wanted to we could also look at the $522 million being spent for a new stadium for the Twins. That is double the replacement cost of the down bridge. Imagine how much cheaper it would have been to just fix the bridge as well.

The problem in this country is not the lack of money when Federal, state and local governments are spending $5-6 trillion a year. The problem is where we spend the money and how we decide priorities.

 

[IGBT]

Originally posted by: ProfJohn

Originally posted by: BarneyFife
I work for the DOT and there is a huge funding issue. We have 2 bridge inspectors in charge of 1500 bridges because we don't have the money to hire anyone else. Also, we are pushing back projects because of the lack of funding. I know people will start blaming the engineers but there is only so much we can do when we don't have the manpower and the $$$. Too bad all of our money is in Iraq.

You guys need to stop repeating that BS line.

As a country we spend over $300 billion a year on Medicaid.
In Fiscal Year 2008 we will spend $454 billion on Medicare, an increase of $28 billion over the previous year. (That increase would build 10 new bridges.)
We will also spend $36.7 billion on the food stamp program and $5.5 billion for the WIC program.

That adds up to nearly $800 billion in spending, and that is on just four programs. That is also eight times what we are spending in Iraq and about double the non-Iraq defense budget.

If we wanted to we could also look at the $522 million being spent for a new stadium for the Twins. That is double the replacement cost of the down bridge. Imagine how much cheaper it would have been to just fix the bridge as well.

The problem in this country is not the lack of money when Federal, state and local governments are spending $5-6 trillion a year. The problem is where we spend the money and how we decide priorities.

..and now we're getting brainwashed into believing we need to spend billions on the global warming GRIFT instead of infrastructure.

 

[BarneyFife]

Originally posted by: ProfJohn

Originally posted by: BarneyFife
I work for the DOT and there is a huge funding issue. We have 2 bridge inspectors in charge of 1500 bridges because we don't have the money to hire anyone else. Also, we are pushing back projects because of the lack of funding. I know people will start blaming the engineers but there is only so much we can do when we don't have the manpower and the $$$. Too bad all of our money is in Iraq.

You guys need to stop repeating that BS line.

As a country we spend over $300 billion a year on Medicaid.
In Fiscal Year 2008 we will spend $454 billion on Medicare, an increase of $28 billion over the previous year. (That increase would build 10 new bridges.)
We will also spend $36.7 billion on the food stamp program and $5.5 billion for the WIC program.

That adds up to nearly $800 billion in spending, and that is on just four programs. That is also eight times what we are spending in Iraq and about double the non-Iraq defense budget.

If we wanted to we could also look at the $522 million being spent for a new stadium for the Twins. That is double the replacement cost of the down bridge. Imagine how much cheaper it would have been to just fix the bridge as well.

The problem in this country is not the lack of money when Federal, state and local governments are spending $5-6 trillion a year. The problem is where we spend the money and how we decide priorities.

Your opinion is worthless. I work for the DOT. I know what the problem is. You're just full of hot air.

 

[ProfJohn]

Originally posted by: BarneyFife
Your opinion is worthless. I work for the DOT. I know what the problem is. You're just full of hot air.

So you work for the state DOT? Or the Federal DOT?
Based on your earlier post you are claiming that the problem is money right?

Tell me? if they took the $500 million they are spending on the new stadium and spent it on roads would it help?

For the fiscal year 2005 DOT had a $58 billion budget, of which $3.2 billion came in the form of earmarks. How many new bridges can we build or old ones can we fix for $3.2 billion?
Link

If this is such a crisis why are we spending billions of dollars on pet projects for individual members of congress instead of looking at the whole system and working on fixing our biggest needs?

Finally? saying that all the money is being spent in Iraq is bullshit.
You could make that argument if we had a constitutional mandated balanced budget and the government was forced to limit its spending. But we don?t have in place and our government can and does spend money at will on whatever it feels like.

$500 million a year for agriculture earmarks.
$9.5 billion a year for Commerce, Justice, State and Judiciary earmarks.
$9 billion a year for defense earmarks.
$4.9 billion a year for Energy and Water development earmarks.
$1 billion a year for labor, health, human services and education earmarks.
These figures come right from the congressional research service, not some partisan group either.
I count $28 billion in earmarks from just the list above. Don?t try telling me the money isn?t there to be spent.