Bribing Troops to Quit. Is Blackwater really "patriotic"?

techs

Lifer
Sep 26, 2000
28,559
4
0
http://www.nypost.com/seven/10...ing_troops_to_quit.htm

BRIBING TROOPS TO QUIT
By RALPH PETERS

October 6, 2007 -- THE problems with military outsourcing go far beyond last month's massacre of civilians by Blackwater USA's hired guns: Wartime profiteers are bleeding our military.
Astonishingly, contractors are free to approach those in uniform, offer them generous salaries to leave their service in wartime, then profit from the skills your tax dollars taught them.

This isn't just about Navy SEALS or other special operators. In intelligence, for example, we train young soldiers for complex missions and expensively process their security clearances - then contractors bribe them to leave the military, raking in big bucks from your investment in their new employee.

Maybe we could look the other way in peacetime. But we're fighting multiple wars. Would we have allowed contractors to hire away some of the most highly skilled men and women in uniform during World War II? (Of course, most lawmakers really were patriots then . . .)

It's fundamentally wrong to let contractors go head-hunting among our troops in wartime. Those in government who've elevated outsourcing to a state religion pretend it helps our war effort - with the whopper that outsourcing military functions saves taxpayer dollars.

Exactly how does that one work? You get stuck with the training and security-clearance costs; the soldier lured to the private sector gets his salary doubled or tripled - then the contractor adds in a markup for his multiple layers of overhead costs and a generous profit margin, and bills the taxpayers. How is that cheaper than having soldiers do the job?

The scam-artists tell us that using contractors saves money in the long run, since their employees don't get military health care and retirement benefits. But the numbers just don't add up.

Contractors are looting our military - while wrapping themselves in the flag.


Thankfully, the finest soldiers and Marines aren't in it for the money. But we're still losing personnel with vital in-demand skills.

Here's how one disgusted special-ops veteran puts it:

"I got tired of old SF buddies handing me their business cards as I exited the dining facility in Iraq [and] asking me to come over and work for them. I'll go teach high school English in the inner city first."

In a follow-up message, this veteran - who's sticking by the colors - wrote:

"The saddest thing I see in those 'flesh peddlers' is the part of the conversation when they admit that they really miss the unit and the people in it. A true warrior isn't in it for the money, but, rather, for those things that money can never buy: mutual respect, camaraderie and the self-worth that comes with it.

"Every one of my contractor 'buddies' eventually breaks down and admits these things to me. Unfortunately, they can also pick up on a malcontent quickly, therefore acquiring the 'easy sale.' "

The disgraceful cycle works like this: Contractors hire away military talent. The military finds itself short of skilled workers, so contractors get more contracts. With more money, they hire away more uniformed talent.

Here's what we need to do to right a wrong that borders on treason:

* Congress must defy its campaign contributors and criminalize attempts to hire those in uniform away from their service during periods of war and conflict.

* If a service member put in a full 20 years or more and retired, he or she should be free to take a job with any law-abiding firm. But any soldier short of 20 who accepts specialized training and a security clearance at government expense should have to wait two years after his or her discharge before moving to a related private-sector position.

* Defense contractors who hire young veterans with advanced skills or security clearances should have to reimburse the government 50 percent of their training and background investigation costs.

The current system is intolerable. The problem, of course, is Congress. Although the Hill is half-way to approving stateside prosecutions for criminal conduct by government contractors abroad, your representatives only did so because they were caught out by the Blackwater scandal.

The truth is that most members of Congress, Republican or Democrat, will favor a contractor who pays in campaign contributions over soldiers who pay with their lives.

We saw classic congressional behavior last week, when Blackwater founder Erik Prince testified on the Hill and set a new standard for smugness. A solid Republican phalanx defended a major contributor. The Dems, who failed to do their homework on the issues, looked stupidly partisan themselves - just harassing a GOP donor.

And Prince got away with his shameless claims that he and his trigger-happy thugs are true-blue patriots. If so, why hire talent away from our military in wartime? Why give heavy weapons to under-supervised "malcontents," endangering our battlefield progress?

And if the independently wealthy Prince is so patriotic, why not provide Blackwater's services to the government on a no-profit basis?

Well, Blackwater ain't no red-white-and-blue charity, and Prince isn't one of FDR'S dollar-a-year men. The company lacked serious credentials when it landed its first security contract - and one suspects it would never have been hired if not for Prince's campaign contributions and political connections.

People like Erik Prince aren't patriots. They're vampires sucking the blood of our troops - war profiteers growing rich while soldiers die.

As I warned in these pages several years ago, we didn't just outsource services in Iraq. We outsourced our nation's honor.

Ralph Peters is a retired military officer and the author of "Wars Of Blood and Faith."





First I must point out that this is from the OPINION page of a RUPERT MURDOCH newspaper.
And I may not agree with the title of the piece, nor the blatantly anti-Blackwater opinions of the author.
But, I agree with the general points made in it. Blackwater IS NOT the patritotic outfit they claim to be. Blackwater is engaging in damaging actions against the US military in Iraq. Blackwater is getting the benefit of a huge US subsidy in the form of the training of its employees.
To me, it is OUTRAGEOUS that a US soldier should be accosted coming out of a mess facility in IRAQ and being enticed to leave the US military in a time of war, IN THE COUNTRY THE WAR IS BEING FOUGHT IN.
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
4,268
126
I don't care for Blackwater, but making a job offer is not a "bribe". Someone gets trained as a communications specialist and someone offers them a "bribe" to get out AKA job offer. Electronics ditto. Virtually everything that is done that requires specialized training has a higher paying equivalent on the civilian side.

People are risking their lives to be there. I don't have a problem with them getting paid for it, as long as they conduct themselves properly.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
126
I'm not sure what you disagree with in the piece. You say it has a 'blatantly anti-Blackwater' tone, yet you agree with its reasonable opinions. Remember, an opinion does not mean 'bias'.

The piece captures pretty well a lot of the problem with privatization, when the 'efficiency' of the government representing the public interest is undermined by interests who stand to make money donating to the politicians, who then give taxpayer money to the interest, and are not punished by the public because the politicians use the funds to advertise to the public to keep voters voting for them.

The real question is why the government should waste so much on these 'privatized' forces, and the answer lies in simply two things it seems, the ideology of the right about privatization and the corrupt circle of right-wing political forces steering taxpayer money there, just as Bush used the public's desire for social spending to get 'faith-based' spending skyrocketing, really tax money for his political supporters.
 

ProfJohn

Lifer
Jul 28, 2006
18,161
7
0
Techs and Craig does this mean that you two support a drastic increase in defense spending so we can keep these types of soldiers from leaving the military for more lucrative private industry jobs?

BTW a lot of the jobs done by Blackwater and other private groups would be done by the military if it was large enough.
 

heyheybooboo

Diamond Member
Jun 29, 2007
6,278
0
0
Pay the soldiers fairly to do their jobs - thereby eliminating the private merc contractors.

The military, and indeed all levels of gov't need skilled technicians and bureaucrats. Pay the *public* employees on a scale comparable to that in the private sector.

Except for the CEOs, of course :)
 

heyheybooboo

Diamond Member
Jun 29, 2007
6,278
0
0
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Techs and Craig does this mean that you two support a drastic increase in defense spending so we can keep these types of soldiers from leaving the military for more lucrative private industry jobs?

BTW a lot of the jobs done by Blackwater and other private groups would be done by the military if it was large enough.

Personel costs as an overall percentage of the defense budget is a joke. Pay the men and women.
 

Balt

Lifer
Mar 12, 2000
12,673
482
126
If a service member put in a full 20 years or more and retired, he or she should be free to take a job with any law-abiding firm. But any soldier short of 20 who accepts specialized training and a security clearance at government expense should have to wait two years after his or her discharge before moving to a related private-sector position.

Completely unreasonable. Once a member of the armed forces has fulfilled their service agreement, they should be free to get any job they want (short of working for a foreign government). If the government truly has a problem with training these people and then having them move to private contractors after their service time is up, they should just extend the amount of time that the service agreement requires. Some positions already require a longer commitment because of the cost of specialized training.
 

Pabster

Lifer
Apr 15, 2001
16,986
1
0
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Techs and Craig does this mean that you two support a drastic increase in defense spending so we can keep these types of soldiers from leaving the military for more lucrative private industry jobs?

Took the words right out of my mouth :D

And, of course, the answer is no. OP is looking to demonize Blackwater per usual.
 

hellod9

Senior member
Sep 16, 2007
249
0
0
The bottom line is our wars should not be fought by mercenaries. Mercenaries are in it for the money and not for our country.

Of course Blackwater is not patriotic. They are a business. A very successful one.
 

hellod9

Senior member
Sep 16, 2007
249
0
0
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Techs and Craig does this mean that you two support a drastic increase in defense spending so we can keep these types of soldiers from leaving the military for more lucrative private industry jobs?

BTW a lot of the jobs done by Blackwater and other private groups would be done by the military if it was large enough.

Where the hell do you think blackwater is getting it's money from? Certainly not out of thin air. It's getting it from the US GOVERNMENT.

Basically, paying the soldiers MORE instead of paying blackwater would end up being CHEAPER because we'd be taking out a middleman.

Private armies should not be fighting public wars.



 

dahunan

Lifer
Jan 10, 2002
18,191
3
0
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Techs and Craig does this mean that you two support a drastic increase in defense spending so we can keep these types of soldiers from leaving the military for more lucrative private industry jobs?

BTW a lot of the jobs done by Blackwater and other private groups would be done by the military if it was large enough.

Why isn't it large enough to fit the PNAC dream?
 
Jun 26, 2007
11,925
2
0
Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider
I don't care for Blackwater, but making a job offer is not a "bribe". Someone gets trained as a communications specialist and someone offers them a "bribe" to get out AKA job offer. Electronics ditto. Virtually everything that is done that requires specialized training has a higher paying equivalent on the civilian side.

People are risking their lives to be there. I don't have a problem with them getting paid for it, as long as they conduct themselves properly.

I agree that making someone a job offer isn't a bribe but i do not agree that they should be allowed to handle secured transports or security without being subjected to local law, they are not military and i don't think they should be allowed to operate where they are not welcomed.

I have some experience with them and i've seen people who would i would refuse to ride with get behind the wheel and others manning the back of the vehicle so drunk that they had their boots on the wrong foot, i know, it sounds like a bad comedy but i've seen that.

Who do i report them to? Who do they answer too, who is their Lieutenant and where is he?

See, there's the REAL problem.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,570
6,712
126
Originally posted by: JohnOfSheffield
Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider
I don't care for Blackwater, but making a job offer is not a "bribe". Someone gets trained as a communications specialist and someone offers them a "bribe" to get out AKA job offer. Electronics ditto. Virtually everything that is done that requires specialized training has a higher paying equivalent on the civilian side.

People are risking their lives to be there. I don't have a problem with them getting paid for it, as long as they conduct themselves properly.

I agree that making someone a job offer isn't a bribe but i do not agree that they should be allowed to handle secured transports or security without being subjected to local law, they are not military and i don't think they should be allowed to operate where they are not welcomed.

I have some experience with them and i've seen people who would i would refuse to ride with get behind the wheel and others manning the back of the vehicle so drunk that they had their boots on the wrong foot, i know, it sounds like a bad comedy but i've seen that.

Who do i report them to? Who do they answer too, who is their Lieutenant and where is he?

See, there's the REAL problem.

Please say it isn't so.

 

Rainsford

Lifer
Apr 25, 2001
17,515
0
0
Originally posted by: Pabster
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Techs and Craig does this mean that you two support a drastic increase in defense spending so we can keep these types of soldiers from leaving the military for more lucrative private industry jobs?

Took the words right out of my mouth :D

And, of course, the answer is no. OP is looking to demonize Blackwater per usual.

I can't speak for those two, but I'd say the answer is, of course, YES. Contractors are an end-run around the government salary system...you lose a lot using them instead of federal employees like soldiers and government intelligence folks, but you also gain people you wouldn't otherwise have because the pay is so much higher. I think the government should pay soldiers and other defense professionals a fair wage, and contractors should get off the front lines.
 

miketheidiot

Lifer
Sep 3, 2004
11,060
1
0
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Techs and Craig does this mean that you two support a drastic increase in defense spending so we can keep these types of soldiers from leaving the military for more lucrative private industry jobs?

BTW a lot of the jobs done by Blackwater and other private groups would be done by the military if it was large enough.

i would perfer to just not use mercs.
 

heyheybooboo

Diamond Member
Jun 29, 2007
6,278
0
0
Originally posted by: hellod9
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Techs and Craig does this mean that you two support a drastic increase in defense spending so we can keep these types of soldiers from leaving the military for more lucrative private industry jobs?

BTW a lot of the jobs done by Blackwater and other private groups would be done by the military if it was large enough.

Where the hell do you think blackwater is getting it's money from? Certainly not out of thin air. It's getting it from the US GOVERNMENT.

Basically, paying the soldiers MORE instead of paying blackwater would end up being CHEAPER because we'd be taking out a middleman.

Private armies should not be fighting public wars.

In 1980 the cost of military personel was 30.52% of the total defense budget.

In 2007 the cost of military personel in the defense budget is estimated to be 22.52% of total.

Even after the Bush RIF at the end of Clinton's term the cost of military personel was nearly 26% of the total defense budget.

 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
126
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Techs and Craig does this mean that you two support a drastic increase in defense spending so we can keep these types of soldiers from leaving the military for more lucrative private industry jobs?

BTW a lot of the jobs done by Blackwater and other private groups would be done by the military if it was large enough.

Think about your question, John. What government workers wouldn't largely change to a privatized company, if offered 6 to 9 times the salary?

The question is the government's willingness to pay for the exhorbitant costs. Since pretty much every government worker would seitch for 6 to 9 times the money, are you willing to say that it's ok to increase all government workers' salaries to that level? Of course not. And it's democrats who more often are trying to improve things for the troops, IMO.
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
20,984
3
0
From the standpoint of blackwater its an unmitigated blessing because the taxpayer pays for the training and then they harvest the benefits on a cost plus basis.

For the US military, its a double disaster.

Simple answer, don't hire mercenaries or outsource to private security firms and the problem goes away.

Convince congress that private security firms are penny wise and dollar foolish and the problem is permanently solved with laws prohibiting their use.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
126
Lemon, they're penny foolish and dollar foolish. I agree, Congress should act to stop the corruption.
 

The Yeti

Member
Jan 26, 2007
39
0
0
LOL. Thanks for the entertaining read. I have an idea, how about paying this Country?s Warriors more than the garbage man. Maybe then you may get a little employee retention within the ranks. By the way, when do troops have the ability to quit in order gain employment with the competition? Sounds like time in the brig to me. Last time I checked a man could do whatever he wanted after putting in his time. The author sounds like the typical yapping bird that knows nothing of a subject, yet feels compelled to educate the masses on it.
 

techs

Lifer
Sep 26, 2000
28,559
4
0
Originally posted by: The Yeti
LOL. Thanks for the entertaining read. I have an idea, how about paying this Country?s Warriors more than the garbage man. Maybe then you may get a little employee retention within the ranks. By the way, when do troops have the ability to quit in order gain employment with the competition? Sounds like time in the brig to me. Last time I checked a man could do whatever he wanted after putting in his time. The author sounds like the typical yapping bird that knows nothing of a subject, yet feels compelled to educate the masses on it.


Some "yapping bird"

WARREN P. STROBEL

Warren P. Strobel is a senior editor at U.S. News & World Report, responsible for covering national security and intelligence. He joined the magazine in October 1998.

For three years before that, Mr. Strobel was White House correspondent for The Washington Times, covering the Clinton White House and traveling extensively with the president domestically and abroad. From September 1994 through September 1995, Mr. Strobel was a Jennings Randolph Peace Fellow at the Washington, D.C.-based United States Institute of Peace. At the Institute, he conducted research for a book on how the U.S. news media report on modern peace operations and the media's effect on American foreign policy and public opinion. The book, Late-Breaking Foreign Policy, was published in June 1997. An article based on his research appears in the May 1996 issue of the American Journalism Review. Mr. Strobel also has been a co-investigator on an Institute grant to study how the Internet has been used as a new tool by those seeking nonviolent change in Burma. The resulting paper, "Networking Dissent," has been highly acclaimed.

Prior to being selected as a fellow, Mr. Strobel spent nine years with The Washington Times. From June 1989 until August 1994, he was the Times' chief State Department correspondent, covering the department and American foreign policy under Secretaries of State James Baker, Lawrence Eagleburger and Warren Christopher. In this post and his others, he has reported from more than 70 countries and been on assignment to Iraq, Germany, the former Soviet Union, Israel and the West Bank, Vietnam and at the United Nations.

From 1986 until 1989, Mr. Strobel was national security correspondent, reporting in depth on the U.S.-Soviet arms control negotiations, the Reagan administration's Strategic Defense Initiative, and both military and civilian space programs in the United States, Russia and Europe. In 1989, he wrote an award-winning story on how incorrect launch codes had been inserted into nuclear-tipped Minuteman III ICBMs, meaning that, unbeknownst to anyone, they could not have been launched, if needed, for an entire year.

He was a general assignment reporter on the Metro and National desks in 1985 and 1986, where he wrote extensively on the beginnings of the AIDS crisis.

Mr. Strobel has lectured at the National Defense University, U.S. Army War College, Quantico Marine Base, Fort Bragg, the U.S. Naval Academy, Harvard University, George Washington University, American University and elsewhere. He is frequently a guest on C-SPAN, and has appeared on CNN-FN and NET.

In July 1998, he served as a member of a joint International Republican Institute-National Democratic Institute team observing the elections in Cambodia.

Mr. Strobel received a Bachelor of Journalism degree from the University of Missouri-Columbia in December 1984. He was editor-in-chief of the student newspapers both at Missouri and at St. Mary's College of Maryland, which he attended from 1980-82.

The son of a U.S. naval officer, Mr. Strobel was born in Japan and lived in Okinawa, the Philippines and England. He and his wife, Theresa Gravatt Strobel, live in Annapolis, Maryland, with their two sons, Mitchell, 12, and Adam, 8.

 

The Yeti

Member
Jan 26, 2007
39
0
0
Originally posted by: techs
Originally posted by: The Yeti
LOL. Thanks for the entertaining read. I have an idea, how about paying this Country?s Warriors more than the garbage man. Maybe then you may get a little employee retention within the ranks. By the way, when do troops have the ability to quit in order gain employment with the competition? Sounds like time in the brig to me. Last time I checked a man could do whatever he wanted after putting in his time. The author sounds like the typical yapping bird that knows nothing of a subject, yet feels compelled to educate the masses on it.


Some "yapping bird"

WARREN P. STROBEL

Warren P. Strobel is a senior editor at U.S. News & World Report, responsible for covering national security and intelligence. He joined the magazine in October 1998.

For three years before that, Mr. Strobel was White House correspondent for The Washington Times, covering the Clinton White House and traveling extensively with the president domestically and abroad. From September 1994 through September 1995, Mr. Strobel was a Jennings Randolph Peace Fellow at the Washington, D.C.-based United States Institute of Peace. At the Institute, he conducted research for a book on how the U.S. news media report on modern peace operations and the media's effect on American foreign policy and public opinion. The book, Late-Breaking Foreign Policy, was published in June 1997. An article based on his research appears in the May 1996 issue of the American Journalism Review. Mr. Strobel also has been a co-investigator on an Institute grant to study how the Internet has been used as a new tool by those seeking nonviolent change in Burma. The resulting paper, "Networking Dissent," has been highly acclaimed.

Prior to being selected as a fellow, Mr. Strobel spent nine years with The Washington Times. From June 1989 until August 1994, he was the Times' chief State Department correspondent, covering the department and American foreign policy under Secretaries of State James Baker, Lawrence Eagleburger and Warren Christopher. In this post and his others, he has reported from more than 70 countries and been on assignment to Iraq, Germany, the former Soviet Union, Israel and the West Bank, Vietnam and at the United Nations.

From 1986 until 1989, Mr. Strobel was national security correspondent, reporting in depth on the U.S.-Soviet arms control negotiations, the Reagan administration's Strategic Defense Initiative, and both military and civilian space programs in the United States, Russia and Europe. In 1989, he wrote an award-winning story on how incorrect launch codes had been inserted into nuclear-tipped Minuteman III ICBMs, meaning that, unbeknownst to anyone, they could not have been launched, if needed, for an entire year.

He was a general assignment reporter on the Metro and National desks in 1985 and 1986, where he wrote extensively on the beginnings of the AIDS crisis.

Mr. Strobel has lectured at the National Defense University, U.S. Army War College, Quantico Marine Base, Fort Bragg, the U.S. Naval Academy, Harvard University, George Washington University, American University and elsewhere. He is frequently a guest on C-SPAN, and has appeared on CNN-FN and NET.

In July 1998, he served as a member of a joint International Republican Institute-National Democratic Institute team observing the elections in Cambodia.

Mr. Strobel received a Bachelor of Journalism degree from the University of Missouri-Columbia in December 1984. He was editor-in-chief of the student newspapers both at Missouri and at St. Mary's College of Maryland, which he attended from 1980-82.

The son of a U.S. naval officer, Mr. Strobel was born in Japan and lived in Okinawa, the Philippines and England. He and his wife, Theresa Gravatt Strobel, live in Annapolis, Maryland, with their two sons, Mitchell, 12, and Adam, 8.

:confused: RALPH PETERS = WARREN P. STROBEL ?
 

cwjerome

Diamond Member
Sep 30, 2004
4,346
26
81
I had the chance to hear Ralph Peters speak down at Fort Huachuca once... very engaging thoughts on history and the military, particularly military intelligence. Since then I read a book of his and I find the guy interesting, and more often than not, agreeing with him.
 

OokiiNeko

Senior member
Jun 14, 2003
508
0
0
Basically, paying the soldiers MORE instead of paying blackwater would end up being CHEAPER because we'd be taking out a middleman.

You win the thread.

IMHO, outsourcing is nothing more than organized graft.

Someone else said it correctly. These guys agree to do x amount of time for x amount of training. There`s even a table somewhere that tells you if school is x weeks long, soldier must agree to serve x months more time if not already obligated.

They are NOT jumping ship, they are deciding not to reenlist when their current enlistment is over.

Of course, this does not make you look at the fact that the US officer corps has been going to work for defense contractors or starting their own companies to bid on "outsourcing" projects for years.
And there were definitely rumors of conflict of interest.
 

palehorse

Lifer
Dec 21, 2005
11,521
0
76
I'm all for paying our enlisted and commissioned soldiers MUCH more! I'd rather go over on government orders than on contractor papers every time! It's a shame that the money is so damn low in the military compared to the contractors who rake in astronomical figures for the same work...

If raising military pay is the solution, then BRING IT ON! ;)