Brian & Anand Hate SD Card's in Phones

[openwheel]

Space has nothing to do with implementing mSD slot???

In a smartphone World where every mm counts, of course it does. Anyone here actually design smart phones?

 

[CZroe]

Might be your OS install. Transferred 20gb into my Nexus 5 on Windows 8.1 without so much as a hiccup.

More MTP issues in the last day:
File copy dialog that never goes anywhere and doesn't cancel.
Searching for an album out of hundreds takes a hundred times longer than on an indexed drive. Once found, I couldn't select the parent folder without getting dumped right back to the root where I had trouble locating it in the first place (at least I now knew the directory name). Thanks to MTP I couldn't right-click an empty area in the window for that option but it's also partially Windows 8's fault: Ever since Windows Vista you haven't been able to right-click the control box area to have the same options you would have if you moved up a level and right-clicked the directory object itself. Idiot software engineers think "it's still there; it's just invisible!" as if they didn't break it (only gives window controls like ALT+SPACE would do).

Oh, and I don't have the option to automatically convert ALAC into something compatible with my MTP device after all. Useless.

Now, this may sound like I'm exaggerating, but today I stopped by work to help the new guy with something and ended up having to drive home and back thanks to MTP. Thanks to Google's influence, newer phones including my Galaxy Note 3 do not support connecting to a PC as USB Mass Storage. We needed to burn multiple copies of security footage from an incident that had videos stored on two different offline DVR systems. There actually isn't any burning software on the systems except the security DVR software, which doesn't support adding files to a disc that's already burned. We didn't have enough discs to waste one just to get the files all together on one system, so the only way to do this was to transfer the files from one to the other using a USB drive of some kind. That's something my phone should be able to do easily, but guess what: There is no MTP support on these systems and I ended up having to drive home for my thumb drive.

Seriously, if you've never had a problem with MTP then you simply aren't doing much.

 

[kevinsbane]

So your argument against uSD is that it's a feature with niche appeal, and then you suggest replacing it with a dual SIM slot???

I'm not suggesting it. I'm saying that if I were given a choice, I'd go with μSIM/nSIM rather than μSD. Not that manufacturers ought to do it. That is to say, I value a second SIM slot more than μSD.

We've had this argument before so here's the deal...

I uSD card occupies less than 0.5% of the volume of a typical smartphone and even when you add the connector, slot housing and interface electronics the total volume burden for a uSD card is less than 1% of the typical smartphone.

I'll say it again ... space has zero to do with the decision to include or exclude a uSD slot and the cost, when were talking volume production in the millions, is negligible.


Brian

And I would still prefer that to be spent on something other than a μSD slot. Small or not, cost is a factor, space is a factor. You may disagree, but hey, you cannot say cost and space doesn't matter at all. μSD presents an opportunity cost (the thing which I would lament) regardless of how little it costs to implement.

 

[TerryMathews]

Space has nothing to do with implementing mSD slot???

In a smartphone World where every mm counts, of course it does.

We've been through this. Apple created enough internal volume to accommodate uSD when they switched from 30 pin to Lightning. Clearly there was a higher priority than accommodating industry standards.

I still maintain, profit by means of cloud storage purchases and higher tier devices is the driving factor, not the size of the connector or its component cost.

How many iCloud subscriptions do you think Apple would really sell if iPhones and iPads had uSD slots?

 

[dawheat]

Because for those for whom μSD is without use, the fact that μSD exists either increases cost or reduces functionality. When we're talking about a smartphone, space is at a premium, and using the space for something that isn't used usually means something else had to be taken out.

Not that it's a big deal mind you. But it's not illogical.

My preference? Replace a μSD card with a μSIM or nSIM card slot for dual SIM action. That's if I were given a choice

So your argument is basically for those that don't use a feature, that feature is useless and should be removed for everyone? Genius.

Personally I think the aggregate utility of microSD across the entire consumer base is > than the cost/size additions, especially as the technology is ultra-mature and I think the cost was once measured in cents, not dollars.

Especially for the value segment who can only afford the 16GB (or even 8GB) version of phones, they can double the storage for their media and photos for $8-9. It's a fantastic value.

Even for my 32GB Note 3, I'm waiting to upgrade my 64GB microsd to the new Sandisk 128GB card once they come back in stock so I can change the media on my phone less frequently (mostly rotating through new movies, etc).

 

[Zaap]

I'm sorry, but in this day and age arguing for lesser technology (lack of a slot for easily obtained and affordable onboard storage expansion) in mobile devices that are getting more and more powerful just makes no sense to me.

And the reverse argument of saying those using expanded storage are keeping internal storage small is just 100% backward.

If people only used internal graphics with desktop computers, signalling makers that this was all most people need, rather than a market for more powerful video cards, then the pace of internal video would move even more glacially than it does. Its trying to compete with video card makers that forces internal chips to get faster to keep up.

Likewise, if everyone signals their storage needs are fully met with 8, 16, 32GB... then makers see little need to offer much more than that. The more people that push the upper limits of storage on mobile (96, 128, 160GB etc.) the more it signals an expectation in the market toward larger capacities being the norm.

 

[pw257008]

So your argument is basically for those that don't use a feature, that feature is useless and should be removed for everyone? Genius.

Personally I think the aggregate utility of microSD across the entire consumer base is > than the cost/size additions, especially as the technology is ultra-mature and I think the cost was once measured in cents, not dollars.

Especially for the value segment who can only afford the 16GB (or even 8GB) version of phones, they can double the storage for their media and photos for $8-9. It's a fantastic value.

Even for my 32GB Note 3, I'm waiting to upgrade my 64GB microsd to the new Sandisk 128GB card once they come back in stock so I can change the media on my phone less frequently (mostly rotating through new movies, etc).

yeah. MicroSD cards have utility all through the value chain, for techies, heavy media consumers, and budget oriented phone buyers.

 

[kevinsbane]

So your argument is basically for those that don't use a feature, that feature is useless and should be removed for everyone? Genius.

No, that's not my argument.

Considering the following analogy.

An Intel i7 4770k comes with integrated graphics. The vast majority of those who buy i7-4770k's will end up using discrete graphics cards, and the integrated graphics hardware will sit idle for the vast majority of i7-4770k users.

1. Some of those users wish that the "wasted" integrated graphics die space be used for more CPU power.
2. Some of those users wish that the "wasted" integrated graphics not be a part of the CPU at all.

Position 1 is logical, if not necessarily what's best for the users of i7-4770k's. Is it not true that if Intel dedicated the GPU die space to the CPU power a user values, we would have a more attractive CPU (for those who have no use for integrated graphics)? Likewise, this is my position on microSD (but not on i7-4770k incidentally). If the cost and phone space were dedicated to some other function in the phone that a user values, would that not be a more attractive phone (for those who have no use for microSD cards)?

Fundamentally, the role of removable storage functions (for most people) as simply an extension of what your phone can already do - store stuff. Granted, it's cheaper, and can be swapped out easily. I just don't value that. The reason why I value a second SIM slot is that it enables me to have something that I use more - cheap mobile data. Tablet data plans are much cheaper than smartphone data plans - get a cheap voice plan + tablet data = win. Of course, if wireless carriers would just offer reasonable data plans, then we wouldn't need to consider dual SIM phones at all.

If we could get both a microSD slot and a second SIM - I'd choose that option instead, even if it cost more. I'm not arguing that microSD is useless and therefore ought to be removed; that's a senseless position to hold.

Personally I think the aggregate utility of microSD across the entire consumer base is > than the cost/size additions,

Fair enough, as long as it doesn't mean I lose something somewhere else.

 

[CZroe]

Even for my 32GB Note 3, I'm waiting to upgrade my 64GB microsd to the new Sandisk 128GB card once they come back in stock so I can change the media on my phone less frequently (mostly rotating through new movies, etc).

Already did exactly that. Now I don't know if it's better to torrent directly to the SD card or the internal memory because I don't know which is more tolerant or random reads/writes (SD card is replaceable at least).

 

[Zaap]

An Intel i7 4770k comes with integrated graphics. The vast majority of those who buy i7-4770k's will end up using discrete graphics cards, and the integrated graphics hardware will sit idle for the vast majority of i7-4770k users.

1. Some of those users wish that the "wasted" integrated graphics die space be used for more CPU power.
2. Some of those users wish that the "wasted" integrated graphics not be a part of the CPU at all.

Bad analogy. CPU intergrated graphics are a replacement for motherboard chipset graphics. They've gotten faster and better directly as a result of Intel's need not to cede desktop and laptop graphics completely to nVidia and AMD. Anyone's wishing for Intel to just drop out of the game over some (probably not even realistic)desire for die space usuage has little to do with it.

Its the users of discreet graphics that have pushed integrated graphics to keep up.

Just that it will be people making large amounts of storage on phones more the norm that will push internal memory to keep up. Eventually, any company is going to look ridiculous releasing a piddly 16GBs when their rivals allow one to have 160GB and more. (I mean personally it already looks ridiculous to me, but I'm talking how it looks to the market in general.)

 

[Oyeve]

It's looked ridiculous for 2 years at least.

 

[kevinsbane]

Bad analogy. CPU intergrated graphics are a replacement for motherboard chipset graphics. They've gotten faster and better directly as a result of Intel's need not to cede desktop and laptop graphics completely to nVidia and AMD. Anyone's wishing for Intel to just drop out of the game over some (probably not even realistic)desire for die space usuage has little to do with it.

Its the users of discreet graphics that have pushed integrated graphics to keep up.

Just that it will be people making large amounts of storage on phones more the norm that will push internal memory to keep up. Eventually, any company is going to look ridiculous releasing a piddly 16GBs when their rivals allow one to have 160GB and more. (I mean personally it already looks ridiculous to me, but I'm talking how it looks to the market in general.)

My analogy's not supposed explain the actual phone situation. I know it's incorrect in the details. It's purpose is to help show the logic behind my position, and the difference between me saying that I prefer a 2nd SIM over a microSD slot, versus me wanting there to be no microSD at all. dawheat characterized my position as the latter, when this was not the case.

 

[accguy9009]

Space has nothing to do with implementing mSD slot???

In a smartphone World where every mm counts, of course it does. Anyone here actually design smart phones?

In the smartphone World they could be putting a lot more internal storage in devices with out gouging consumers with super high cost add-ons but they don't because of greed. Don't think for a minute fees generated from cloud storage aren't a cash cow. If they wanted to include allowing the end user the ability to add high-capacity microSD storage they would find a way. Some just don't want to and they don't. End of story

 

[accguy9009]

hmmm... I would think a simpler solution would be for them to just hook up their camera to their tablet with a USB cable. Or can you not do that on a Android tab like you can an iPad?

Your solution doesn't seem any simpler. Whats so hard about ejecting card and inserting it in computer? C'mon Bro, lol

 

[accguy9009]

This^^

I did buy the first nexus 7 16GB, then sold it when they released the 32GB version.. WTF are they thinking by not including a mSD slot... I live outside the US, so can't really benefit from the cloud BS, even if I did, I can get unlimited data for like $30, BUT 4G is not everywhere, Stitcher can't stream normal audio stuff sometimes, let alone other video players play HD videos.

What I hate about this BS is, you give us a top of the line mobile device, with 2-3GB memory and stuff,, then a 16GB internal memory!! WTF.. I get it, you want us to use the cloud BS, GTFO!!!

I wouldn't buy a laptop with no expansion ports, why would I buy a top of the line bleeding edge smart phone aka a mobile PC with how fast these things are, then not include an expansion slot.. If you don't use the mSD slot, why do you give a damn if it's included or not!!

They don't want you importing your own movies and music, they want you getting the content from them, for a fee. If they allowed you to buy a device with more internal storage on board you wouldn't have to buy additional cloud storage from them would you? At least Google gives you 15 GB gratis unlike MS and Apple who only give you 5 GB free cause they know its not enuf for many consumers. They know what they are doing. Its like a drug dealer giving free samples, they know you be back for more,lol.

 

[accguy9009]

We've been through this. Apple created enough internal volume to accommodate uSD when they switched from 30 pin to Lightning. Clearly there was a higher priority than accommodating industry standards.

I still maintain, profit by means of cloud storage purchases and higher tier devices is the driving factor, not the size of the connector or its component cost.

How many iCloud subscriptions do you think Apple would really sell if iPhones and iPads had uSD slots?

Your thought process is on point.

 

[shabby]

How many iCloud subscriptions do you think Apple would really sell if iPhones and iPads had uSD slots?

I think that's the main issue here, a conflict of interest if you may, both apple and google sell cloud services and their interest isn't to provide you with a 128gb phone with a uSD slot. Its to sell you the bare minimum of storage in a phone and a choice for cloud storage, there really is no other reason why they include the same amount of storage that phones from 4 years ago had. Cpu's get faster, camera's get better, displays get bigger and increase in resolution, yet storage space is at a standstill.

Someone want to run up on stage at google i/o and protest about the lack of storage? Give us more geebee's you'd chant.

 

[bearxor]

Your solution doesn't seem any simpler. Whats so hard about ejecting card and inserting it in computer? C'mon Bro, lol

Well, to begin with, you're now talking about a different scenario than what Zaap was talking about. His process was: Replace SD card in camera with a uSD card in a full size adapter, shoot pictures, remove SD card adapter, remove uSD card, place uSD card in tablet, copy pictures off, remove uSD card from tablet, place it back into SD card adapter, insert it back in to camera.

Whereas if the tablet in question had been an iPad, it would have been: buy USB adapter, shoot pictures with camera, connect USB cable, import pictures.

Are you really going to say that the manual process of removing/inserting cards is easier than connecting a cable? The only real argument you have on that stance would be that it might be easier to not carry the cable around. But these were people shooting with a P&S. They're already carrying extra stuff around to begin with.

I find this thread highly entertaining, though I've basically stayed out of it. I couldn't care less if my phones and tablets came with a uSD slot. In the four years that my usage has essentially shifted from laptops to tablets I can't recall one time when I've wished I really had a uSD slot. When I got a Surface Pro, I went out and bought a 64GB uSD card because everyone said you "had to have one!" I've not used it once.

I can recognize that for some people, especially technically-inclined, it might be a make or break feature for a device, and that's fine. But I also don't think the lack of uSD card is to sell iCloud subscriptions. Especially since iCloud storage really has nothing to do with what you'd use a uSD card for.

 

[accguy9009]

Well, to begin with, you're now talking about a different scenario than what Zaap was talking about. His process was: Replace SD card in camera with a uSD card in a full size adapter, shoot pictures, remove SD card adapter, remove uSD card, place uSD card in tablet, copy pictures off, remove uSD card from tablet, place it back into SD card adapter, insert it back in to camera.

Whereas if the tablet in question had been an iPad, it would have been: buy USB adapter, shoot pictures with camera, connect USB cable, import pictures.

Are you really going to say that the manual process of removing/inserting cards is easier than connecting a cable? The only real argument you have on that stance would be that it might be easier to not carry the cable around. But these were people shooting with a P&S. They're already carrying extra stuff around to begin with.

I find this thread highly entertaining, though I've basically stayed out of it. I couldn't care less if my phones and tablets came with a uSD slot. In the four years that my usage has essentially shifted from laptops to tablets I can't recall one time when I've wished I really had a uSD slot. When I got a Surface Pro, I went out and bought a 64GB uSD card because everyone said you "had to have one!" I've not used it once.

I can recognize that for some people, especially technically-inclined, it might be a make or break feature for a device, and that's fine. But I also don't think the lack of uSD card is to sell iCloud subscriptions. Especially since iCloud storage really has nothing to do with what you'd use a uSD card for.

They don't need to buy an iPad to do this in most cases. Many Android devices support a mini USB to USB to a computer to drag and drop. If they want an iPad they certainly can go this route. If they find it simpler or its what they find comfortable they should just use a device that has has card storage ability. We hopefully can agree to disagree on this observation of yours "since iCloud storage really has nothing to do with what you'd use a uSD card for".

 

[bearxor]

They don't need to buy an iPad to do this in most cases. Many Android devices support a mini USB to USB to a computer to drag and drop. If they want an iPad they certainly can go this route. If they find it simpler or its what they find comfortable they should just use a device that has has card storage ability.

No one said they did. But you're taking one observation and trying to apply your bias to it in ways that weren't even implied in the original post.

We hopefully can agree to disagree on this observation of yours "since iCloud storage really has nothing to do with what you'd use a uSD card for".

And probably not, because iCloud storage is not intended to replace functions that you would use a uSD card for. Bringing up iCloud and iCloud subscriptions in a discussion to compare it to having a uSD card shows a complete ignorance in the entire point of iCloud storage. Not that you brought it up, that was TerryMatthews.

Edit: And I'm done, too. As I noted, I really, really couldn't care less about this topic. I just noticed one thing and thought it was weird and commented on it.

 

[DeathReborn]

Your solution doesn't seem any simpler. Whats so hard about ejecting card and inserting it in computer? C'mon Bro, lol

Why not just stick it into a printer directly? My grandparents who I taught to use the PC print loads of pictures just by using a printer, it's quicker & easier to use which helps.

 

[TerryMathews]

And probably not, because iCloud storage is not intended to replace functions that you would use a uSD card for. Bringing up iCloud and iCloud subscriptions in a discussion to compare it to having a uSD card shows a complete ignorance in the entire point of iCloud storage. Not that you brought it up, that was TerryMatthews.

So when Apple sells a 50GB iCloud subscription to someone with a 16GB iPhone, that's not intended to be supplemental storage? :whistle:

ETA: I am aware iCloud offers other features; that does not change the fact that it is the only realistic option to extend storage on an iPad or iPhone.

 

[Zaap]

Why not just stick it into a printer directly? My grandparents who I taught to use the PC print loads of pictures just by using a printer, it's quicker & easier to use which helps.

You do realize the example was viewing photos taken with a P&S while on vacation using the fewest extra gizmos? A printer in your luggage? Um, no.

 

[AkumaX]

128GB MicroSDXC for $120.

iPad Air 16GB = $500
iPad Air 32GB = $600
iPad Air 64GB = $700
iPad Air 128GB = $800

$300 to jump from 16GB to 128GB.

Thanks Apple!

 

[Oyeve]

128GB MicroSDXC for $120.

iPad Air 16GB = $500
iPad Air 32GB = $600
iPad Air 64GB = $700
iPad Air 128GB = $800

$300 to jump from 16GB to 128GB.

Thanks Apple!

And the SD card prices will definitely drop.