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Brewing civil war in Iraq?

Not our problem, not our fault. Shia and Sunni were killing each other long before we got involved, they will be killing each other long after.

We need to leave well enough alone for once. They need to decide what's best for themselves.
 
xBiffx said:
Not our problem, not our fault. Shia and Sunni were killing each other long before we got involved, they will be killing each other long after.

We need to leave well enough alone for once. They need to decide what's best for themselves.
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Absolutely, on all counts. This sectarian violence has been going on for a millennium or more. If they ever civilize, they'll have to do it on the their own timeline. Foreign intervention isn't going to solve the problem.

If Iraq becomes another big conflagration like Syria, I hope we will have learned our lesson about years long occupations and attempts to build western leaning democracies. These projects are doomed to fail before they even begin.
 
xBiffx said:
Not our problem, not our fault. Shia and Sunni were killing each other long before we got involved, they will be killing each other long after.

We need to leave well enough alone for once. They need to decide what's best for themselves.
Click to expand...

It is our fault, but it's not our problem. Whether it was good or bad, they had it under control until we came in and wrecked them. We created the power vacuum that allowed for this.
 
AyashiKaibutsu said:
It is our fault, but it's not our problem. Whether it was good or bad, they had it under control until we came in and wrecked them.
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None of this is our fault. We didn't cause this violence. It was there long before we even showed up. They had no more control before either. Its been this way for a long, long time. We did nothing but scratch at an already festering wound.
 
I can see us having deposed Saddam Hussein as a causal pre-cursor to this, but I also agree with xbiff. This sectarian violence is a long standing problem. Hussein merely kept a lid on it for awhile. He was going to die eventually on his own. At most we might have influenced the timing of it. The confounding thing is that we thought we could civilize them, that we could leave and this wouldn't happen. Or some of us apparently did.
 
xBiffx said:
None of this is our fault. We didn't cause this violence. It was there long before we even showed up. They had no more control before either. Its been this way for a long, long time. We did nothing but scratch at an already festering wound.
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I believe what he is trying to say is that while it was still there Saddam kept them in check.
 
I think had Saddam still been there, there would have been a civil war emerging from "Arab Spring" right about the same time as it happened in neighboring Syria. Except the Shia would have been the rebels, killing the Sunni. I see no reason Iraq would have been immune to it. It clearly isn't immune.
 
AyashiKaibutsu said:
It is our fault, but it's not our problem. Whether it was good or bad, they had it under control until we came in and wrecked them. We created the power vacuum that allowed for this.
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No, it's not our fault. Sunni, and Shia have been hatin' on each other and killing each other LOOOOOONG before we went there, or even started meddling in their business.
 
xj0hnx said:
No, it's not our fault. Sunni, and Shia have been hatin' on each other and killing each other LOOOOOONG before we went there, or even started meddling in their business.
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But Saddam stopped most of it in Iraq.

If you break all the criminals out of jail, you can't claim that it's not your fault there's a murder rampage. "But they would have done it anyways!"

If you remove the controlling force that prevents the violence, you can't absolve yourself of fault.
 
silverpig said:
But Saddam stopped most of it in Iraq.

If you break all the criminals out of jail, you can't claim that it's not your fault there's a murder rampage. "But they would have done it anyways!"

If you remove the controlling force that prevents the violence, you can't absolve yourself of fault.
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Yet look at what's happening in Syria. They have a strong totalitarian regime there which contained sectarian violence for many years. Then Arab Spring happened, a popular front emerged to oppose the regime, resulting in a civil war, which has brought with it sectarian violence. Is there any reason to believe this would not also have happened in Iraq? The only difference between that scenario and this one is had Saddam been in power, it could have been the regime doing half the killing. Under the situation we created, they have a relatively ineffectual government, and the two factions are just killing each other. Not a very important difference. Killing is killing.
 
nextJin said:
I believe what he is trying to say is that while it was still there Saddam kept them in check.
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Gotcha. That may be true but as wolfe said, it was bound to happen naturally at some point in time. All we did was change the timing.

I think Sadam was far more harm than good or at least the potential was there in this case however.
 
Long term view, maybe this will be a good thing. Clearly these ME people have been in the stone age mentality so long as to not have evolved. Either they will choose to revert/remain in their thinking, or, perhaps, get it out of their system and then realize that Hey, maybe we should change things about our culture so we're not mandated to be barbaric.

If they choose to butcher themselves while learning these lessons and making these decisions, then really it's their call. One things for certain, them being this way isn't our doing. Best that can be said is we've given them opportunity, they are simply choosing what to do with that opportunity. Apperently they want to maim and kill. As long as it's them, so be it.

Chuck
 
xBiffx said:
Gotcha. That may be true but as wolfe said, it was bound to happen naturally at some point in time. All we did was change the timing.

I think Sadam was far more harm than good or at least the potential was there in this case however.
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Well a case could be made that if it was going to happen anyway we shouldnt have ever went.
 
xBiffx said:
None of this is our fault. We didn't cause this violence. It was there long before we even showed up. They had no more control before either. Its been this way for a long, long time. We did nothing but scratch at an already festering wound.
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They had control in the form of Saddam Hussien.

Inevitably, Iraq will fall into civil war since the parts of the nation have no reason to be together.
 
nehalem256 said:
Of course he "kept them in check" by killing anyone who opposed his rule.

So nothing really has changed except who is doing the killing.
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This. While Saddam was "keeping them in check", it wasn't back and forth killing, it was just Saddam doing the killing.
 
woolfe9998 said:
Yet look at what's happening in Syria. They have a strong totalitarian regime there which contained sectarian violence for many years. Then Arab Spring happened, a popular front emerged to oppose the regime, resulting in a civil war, which has brought with it sectarian violence. Is there any reason to believe this would not also have happened in Iraq? The only difference between that scenario and this one is had Saddam been in power, it could have been the regime doing half the killing. Under the situation we created, they have a relatively ineffectual government, and the two factions are just killing each other. Not a very important difference. Killing is killing.
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But what allowed that sectarian violence to start? Are the Syrian rebels not getting help from free areas in Iraq? Would that happen if Saddam was in power still?
 
silverpig said:
But what allowed that sectarian violence to start? Are the Syrian rebels not getting help from free areas in Iraq? Would that happen if Saddam was in power still?
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You have evidence that the sectarian violence in Syria is largely fueled from Iraq? The articles I'm reading today suggest that it's the other way around.
 
woolfe9998 said:
Some articles today about growing sectarian violence in Iraq, 2000 people dead since April. Shia v. Sunni, of course.

http://www.npr.org/2013/06/20/19391...iolence-the-threat-of-a-new-civil-war-in-iraq

Apparently the sectarian violence in Syria is spilling over to Iraq.

So much for nation building.
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If the teacher would leave the room and put the nerds in a position of power, how long would it take before they get their arse beaten? Now let's say that the teacher also brings in bully support from far away, makes the territory great for these bullies to thrive in.


In Iraq we fucked up the entire ME, we showed every nation that if we don't have a reason for war we will make up one, we pulled every active soldier out of Afghanistan and pulled all air support at a time when we COULD HAVE WON.

It will never be fixed, there wasn't ONE terrorist except in the US controlled areas of Iraq before the invasion and now there are tens of thousands.

Our strategy now should be to just fuck off. Leave these fuckers in their misery that they created for themselves with our help.
 
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