Breaking Story

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Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
19
81
I'm very familiar with the UCMJ, I served within it's boundaries for 12 years.

You need to re-read it. He is being held under conditions that constitute cruel and inhumane treatment and maybe even torture if Greenwalds accounts are to believed by UCMJs standards,

Not withstanding Mr. Manning maybe a traitorous little bastard even I suspect him to be, he is still entitled to defend himself in court in a timely fashion and afforded council. Also being denied.

We deserve better that this as a nation of free men, for the sake of our own souls, fidelity to the Constitution, and one day it maybe your ox that gets gored by our ever expanding police state.
 

EagleKeeper

Discussion Club Moderator<br>Elite Member
Staff member
Oct 30, 2000
42,589
5
0
Hearsay and bullshit. Soldiers have rights too under UCMJ which are not being shown ATM.
They have rights under the UCMJ. They also have responsibilites and the consequences of breaking such.
 

Londo_Jowo

Lifer
Jan 31, 2010
17,303
158
106
londojowo.hypermart.net
You need to re-read it. He is being held under conditions that constitute cruel and inhumane treatment and maybe even torture if Greenwalds accounts are to believed by UCMJs standards,

Not withstanding Mr. Manning maybe a traitorous little bastard even I suspect him to be, he is still entitled to defend himself in court in a timely fashion and afforded council. Also being denied.

We deserve better that this as a nation of free men, for the sake of our own souls, fidelity to the Constitution, and one day it maybe your ox that gets gored by our ever expanding police state.

According to you, until I see proof of torture I don't see where he's being treated any differently than any other military personnel that has been accused of treason or espionage.
 

JSt0rm

Lifer
Sep 5, 2000
27,399
3,948
126
The most informative thread title ever. In fact we can put all news from now on in this one thread.
 
Jun 26, 2007
11,925
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If the story as outlined below proves to be the whole truth and nothing but the truth, then it would appear that the powers-that-be are going to arguably unethical lengths to fuck with Bradley Manning and his lawyers, using flimsy and suspect pretenses.

There is no doubt he committed treason by handing out documents carrying the MI Classification stamp.

No jury and no trial is needed for scum like these, bring him out back and shoot him.

I am not joking or being sarcastic, i don't have any tolerance for this sort of sheit.
 
Jun 26, 2007
11,925
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What I see is that they are now enforcing what is typically required to enter and vist a prisoner. In this case it's proof of insurance (on hand, in writing) to enter a military base. Remember, a military base is NOT under the same laws as the United States. If they wish to search the car, detain the car, seize the car, they can....ESPECIALLY if it's not following the laws of the base and/or state in which the base is located, then they can do so. MPs do normally suffer fools gladly.

They are also likely irritated that the smug prick (the suspect) is being allowed visitors at all.

He's most certainly going to be charged with voluntary disclosure of classified material, which could end up with decades behind bars if all counts are added up. He could be charged with treason. The maximum penalty for treason can be death under aggravated circumstances.

The MPs are certainly no friends of that prick, and will likely follow to the letter, all requirements spelled out, if given the chance.

I would...and then some

Aye, but i still think death or using him as an infitration officer after a five year training (yes, that kind of training) would suffice, a last chance to do something good before you die.

If it was me, i'd take that offer, but then again, the crime is treason, one which i would die before committing.

Or he could be shipped out and sent out to negotiate with terrorists, you know, to draw them out and who really cares if he dies, no sane man does.
 
Jun 26, 2007
11,925
2
0
You need to re-read it. He is being held under conditions that constitute cruel and inhumane treatment and maybe even torture if Greenwalds accounts are to believed by UCMJs standards,

Not withstanding Mr. Manning maybe a traitorous little bastard even I suspect him to be, he is still entitled to defend himself in court in a timely fashion and afforded council. Also being denied.

We deserve better that this as a nation of free men, for the sake of our own souls, fidelity to the Constitution, and one day it maybe your ox that gets gored by our ever expanding police state.

Oh my, alert the Liverpool establishment, a man who is a traitor is being abused!

I have more sympathy with those who were innocent and even those that were guilty who were tortured and some of them killed in Abu Ghraib and Gitmo than i will ever have with this piece of shit.

He's military, he's a traitor, there is no excuse for that and whatever anyone does to him he should just be thankful for being alive.

If he'd been in my team, he wouldn't be facing charges.
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
19
81
Why is this man still alive?

Due process. You guys are fucked up thinking we should just kill our own without it. I suggest moving to some South American junta where death squads reign or maybe Taliban were they kill suspected traitors on a whim.
 
Jun 26, 2007
11,925
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Due process. You guys are fucked up thinking we should just kill our own without it. I suggest moving to some South American junta where death squads reign or maybe Taliban were they kill suspected traitors on a whim.

Due process doesn't exist in military courts, the trial is not by jury and only guilt has to be proven, if it is the punishment is set by the direct code of the military law.
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
126
You need to re-read it. He is being held under conditions that constitute cruel and inhumane treatment and maybe even torture if Greenwalds accounts are to believed by UCMJs standards,

Not withstanding Mr. Manning maybe a traitorous little bastard even I suspect him to be, he is still entitled to defend himself in court in a timely fashion and afforded council. Also being denied.

We deserve better that this as a nation of free men, for the sake of our own souls, fidelity to the Constitution, and one day it maybe your ox that gets gored by our ever expanding police state.
I think Manning constitutes a severe security risk by virtue of his security rating and his demonstrated willingness to disseminate classified information to satisfy his own desire for revenge against a system he freely entered and then disliked. While objectively I agree that he should have access to such things as sheets and a pillow, I can't muster any sympathy for him. My sympathy is reserved for others - the Afghan who simply wants a better future for his daughter but instead gets kidnapped and tortured to death for secret collaboration, the soldiers who will be facing increased risk of death or injury due to charges they too haven't been able to face before dissemination, the diplomat whose service to his country may be at an end because some two-bit self-absorbed twit decided he should have the power to life or death disclosure decisions for his country. Considering that Manning's innocence would require a conspiracy between left (making him a hero, as Daniel Ellsburg proclaims) and the right (making him the new Benedict Arnold, except without the exceptional previous service to his country), I can't feel too sorry for his being locked in solitary whilst soldiers travel Iraq and Afghanistan in increased risk with the blame squarely on his narrow shoulders.
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
19
81
Who said anything about sympathy? I'm talking rule of law & presumption of innocence. I'd say shoot him between the eyes AFTER CONVICTION. That's a very important distinction.
 
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Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
19
81
Due process doesn't exist in military courts, the trial is not by jury and only guilt has to be proven, if it is the punishment is set by the direct code of the military law.

Yes it does read the UCMJ linked, it's damn near a carbon copy of Constitution 5th-8th, and jury is officers & warrant officers.
 
Jun 26, 2007
11,925
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Yes it does read the UCMJ linked, it's damn near a carbon copy of Constitution 5th-8th, and jury is officers & warrant officers.

It does depend on the circumstances, these are reports on foreign nation affairs in which the US has deployed troops at this time.

So you are wrong, they could shoot him in the head and it would be legal.
 
Jun 26, 2007
11,925
2
0
I think Manning constitutes a severe security risk by virtue of his security rating and his demonstrated willingness to disseminate classified information to satisfy his own desire for revenge against a system he freely entered and then disliked. While objectively I agree that he should have access to such things as sheets and a pillow, I can't muster any sympathy for him. My sympathy is reserved for others - the Afghan who simply wants a better future for his daughter but instead gets kidnapped and tortured to death for secret collaboration, the soldiers who will be facing increased risk of death or injury due to charges they too haven't been able to face before dissemination, the diplomat whose service to his country may be at an end because some two-bit self-absorbed twit decided he should have the power to life or death disclosure decisions for his country. Considering that Manning's innocence would require a conspiracy between left (making him a hero, as Daniel Ellsburg proclaims) and the right (making him the new Benedict Arnold, except without the exceptional previous service to his country), I can't feel too sorry for his being locked in solitary whilst soldiers travel Iraq and Afghanistan in increased risk with the blame squarely on his narrow shoulders.

I salute you for your outright knowledge and understanding.
 
Oct 30, 2004
11,442
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Manning should spend a long long time in jail for his actions that directly threatened the lives of multiple Americans and those who are risking their lives to work with us.

In a lot of other countries he would be executed for his actions.

I agree. If he actually committed the act then he should be executed for treason.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
126
Whatever crime this was, it wasn't treason. He didn't send these documents to enemies for use to harm the US.

He sent them instead to an organization that had a process for reviewing them to ensure things like names of confidential informants that get them killed are not released. He couldn't review hundreds of thousands of documents, and neither could WikiLeaks, who has enlisted the help of teams at newspapers, and released only a fraction of the documents.

In contrast to certain people who make false claims in this thread about informants getting killed from the leaks, there's no evidence of that.

Treason is telling the Germans the D-Day plan, not leaking documents to an organization who screens them for release (including offering to the US government to offer guidance on any documents that pose a risk to getting informants killed, even it it can't accept the offer.)

I see no evidence Manning's intent was to serve enemies to harm the US. What he did is a crime, but it's not treason.

We have very immoral people calling for killing him.
 

pcgeek11

Lifer
Jun 12, 2005
22,380
4,999
136
Whatever crime this was, it wasn't treason. He didn't send these documents to enemies for use to harm the US.

He sent them instead to an organization that had a process for reviewing them to ensure things like names of confidential informants that get them killed are not released. He couldn't review hundreds of thousands of documents, and neither could WikiLeaks, who has enlisted the help of teams at newspapers, and released only a fraction of the documents.

In contrast to certain people who make false claims in this thread about informants getting killed from the leaks, there's no evidence of that.

Treason is telling the Germans the D-Day plan, not leaking documents to an organization who screens them for release (including offering to the US government to offer guidance on any documents that pose a risk to getting informants killed, even it it can't accept the offer.)

I see no evidence Manning's intent was to serve enemies to harm the US. What he did is a crime, but it's not treason.

We have very immoral people calling for killing him.

I agree with some of your post as it is not Treason as defined in the Constitution. However the very fact that he was trusted with his clearance and copied classified documents and gave them to Anybody is still Espionage regardless of if the receiver " had a process for reviewing them to ensure things like names of confidential informants that get them killed are not released." in your words.

And yes he can still get executed for espionage under the UCMJ and in my opinion he should get a bullet for what he has done. He meets the guidelines for it. We ( Your nor I ) have any idea what his intentions were except to inflict damage to the USA...

UCMJ Art for Espionage:


&#8220;(1) Any person subject to this chapter who, with intent or reason to believe that it is to be used to the injury of the United States or to the advantage of a foreign nation, communicates, delivers, or transmits, or attempts to communicate, deliver, or transmit, to any entity described in paragraph (2), either directly or indirectly, anything described in paragraph (3) shall be punished as a court-martial may direct, except that if the accused is found guilty of an offense that directly concerns (A) nuclear weaponry, military spacecraft or satellites, early warning systems, or other means of defense or retaliation against large scale attack, (B) war plans, (C) communications intelligence or cryptographic information, or (D) any other major weapons system or major element of defense strategy, the accused shall be punished by death or such other punishment as a court-martial may direct.

(2) An entity referred to in paragraph (1) is&#8212;

(A) a foreign government;

(B) a faction or party or military or naval force within a foreign country, whether recognized or unrecognized by the United States; or

(C) a representative, officer, agent, employee, subject, or citizen of such a government, faction, party, or force.

(3) A thing referred to in paragraph (1) is a document, writing, code book, signal book, sketch, photograph, photographic negative, blueprint, plan, map, model, note, instrument, appliance, or information relating to the national defense.

(b)

(1) No person may be sentenced by court-martial to suffer death for an offense under this section (article) unless&#8212;

(A) the members of the court-martial unanimously find at least one of the aggravating factors set out in subsection (c); and

(B) the members unanimously determine that any extenuating or mitigating circumstances are substantially outweighed by any aggravating circumstances, including the aggravating factors set out under subsection (c).

(2) Findings under this subsection may be based on&#8212; (A) evidence introduced on the issue of guilt or innocence; (B) evidence introduced during the sentencing proceeding; or

(C) all such evidence. (3) The accused shall be given broad latitude to present matters in extenuation and mitigation.

(c) A sentence of death may be adjudged by a court-martial for an offense under this section (article) only if the members unanimously find, beyond a reasonable doubt, one or more of the following aggravating factors:

(1) The accused has been convicted of another offense involving espionage or treason for which either a sentence of death or imprisonment for life was authorized by statute.

(2) In the commission of the offense, the accused knowingly created a grave risk of substantial damage to the national security.

(3) In the commission of the offense, the accused knowingly created a grave risk of death to another person.

(4) Any other factor that may be prescribed by the President by regulations under section 836 of this title (Article 36).&#8221;


Elements.

(1) Espionage.

(a) That the accused communicated, delivered, or transmitted any document, writing, code book, signal book, sketch, photograph, photographic negative, blueprint, plan, map, model, note, instrument, appliance, or information relating to the national defense;

(b) That this matter was communicated, delivered, or transmitted to any foreign government, or to any faction or party or military or naval force within a foreign country, whether recognized or unrecognized by the United States, or to any representative, officer, agent, employee, subject or citizen thereof, either directly or indirectly; and

(c) That the accused did so with intent or reason to believe that such matter would be used to the injury of the United States or to the advantage of a foreign nation.

(2) Attempted espionage.

(a) That the accused did a certain overt act;

(b) That the act was done with the intent to commit the offense of espionage;

(c) That the act amounted to more than mere preparation; and

(d) That the act apparently tended to bring about the offense of espionage.

(3) Espionage as a capital offense.

(a) That the accused committed espionage or attempted espionage; and

(b) That the offense directly concerned (1) nuclear weaponry, military spacecraft or satellites, early warning systems, or other means of defense or retaliation against large scale attack, (2) war plans, (3) communications intelligence or cryptographic information, or (4) any other major weapons system or major element of defense strategy.

Explanation.

(1) Intent. &#8220;Intent or reason to believe&#8221; that the information &#8220;is to be used to the injury of the United States or to the advantage of a foreign nation&#8221; means that the accused acted in bad faith and with-out lawful authority with respect to information that is not lawfully accessible to the public.

(2) National defense information. &#8220;Instrument, appliance, or information relating to the national defense&#8221; includes the full range of modern technology and matter that may be developed in the future, including chemical or biological agents, computer technology, and other matter related to the national defense.

(3) Espionage as a capital offense. Capital punishment is authorized if the government alleges and proves that the offense directly concerned (1) nuclear weaponry, military spacecraft or satellites, early warning systems, or other means of defense or retaliation against large scale attack, (2) war plans, (3) communications intelligence or cryptographic information, or (4) any other major weapons system or major element of defense strategy. See R.C.M. 1004 concerning sentencing proceedings in capital cases.

Lesser included offense. Although no lesser included offenses are set forth in the Code, federal civilian offenses on this matter may be incorporated through the third clause of Article 134.

Maximum punishment.

(1) Espionage as a capital offense. Death or such other punishment as a court-martial may direct. See R.C.M. 1003.

(2) Espionage or attempted espionage. Any punishment, other than death, that a court-martial may direct. See R.C.M. 1003.
 
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yllus

Elite Member & Lifer
Aug 20, 2000
20,577
432
126
This appears to be a rather interesting development:

Bradley Manning-WikiLeaks Connection Not Found: Military Investigators

U.S. military investigators have been unable to find a direct link between jailed Army PFC Bradley Manning and WikiLeaks, reports NBC News.

However, the alleged source of the WikiLeaks diplomatic cables did download files illegally maintain military investigators. Reports NBC:

The officials say that while investigators have determined that Manning had allegedly unlawfully downloaded tens of thousands of documents onto his own computer and passed them to an unauthorized person, there is apparently no evidence he passed the files directly to Assange, or had any direct contact with the controversial WikiLeaks figure.

WikiLeaks founder Assange has repeatedly stated that he had no contact with Manning prior to "reading his name in a magazine." WikiLeaks has, however, provided $15,000 towards Manning's legal fees, and Assange has referred to him as a "political prisoner."

Manning has been in the media spotlight recently as stories of his prison conditions have emerged. He is currently being held at the Marine base in Quantico, Virginia, in solitary confinement. The military has strongly denied that Manning's detention conditions are punitive or "torture," as has been alleged.
 

pcgeek11

Lifer
Jun 12, 2005
22,380
4,999
136

The long and short of it is he committed an act of Espionage as he informed Lamo in the web chat. It doesn't matter which unauthorized person he passed the documents to. The only thing left to determine in this case IMO is if the information he passed warrants massive prison time or death as outlined under the UCMJ. I really don't give a fuck about civilian law in this case as it is not applicable.

A lot of pantywaist on here whinning about solitary confinement in this case. Pfttt. So what he has to be by himself 24 hours a day. Big deal, granted not very good company in this case.

A commanding officer underway can put you on bread and water for up to three days without even a trial.

**********************************
Subject to subsection (a) any commanding officer may, in addition to or in lieu of admonition or reprimand, impose one or more of the following disciplinary punishments for minor offenses without the intervention of a court-martial--

(1) upon officers of his command--

(A) restriction to certain specified limits, with or without suspension from duty, for not more that 30 consecutive days;

(B) if imposed by an officer exercising general court-martial jurisdictions or an officer of general flag rank in command--

(i) arrest in quarters for not more than 30 consecutive days;

(ii) forfeiture of not more than one-half of one month's pay per month for two months;

(iii) restriction to certain specified limits, with or without suspension from duty, for not more than 60 consecutive days;

(iv) detention of not more than one-half of one month's pay per month for three months;

(2) upon other personnel of his command--

(A) if imposed upon a person attached to or embarked in a vessel, confinement on bread and water or diminished rations for not more than three consecutive days;

(B) correctional custody for not more than seven consecutive days;

(C) forfeiture of not more than seven days' pay;

(D) reduction to the next inferior pay grade, if the grade from which demoted is within the promotion authority of the officer imposing the reduction or any officer subordinate to the one who imposes the reduction;

(E) extra duties, including fatigue or other duties, for not more than 14 consecutive days;

(F) restriction to certain specified limits, with or without suspension from duty, for not more than 14 consecutive days;

(G) detention of not more than 14 days' pay;

(H) if imposed by an officer of the grade of major or lieutenant commander, or above--

(i) the punishment authorized under clause (A);

(ii) correctional custody for not more than 30 consecutive days;

(iii) forfeiture of not more than one-half of one month's pay per month for two months;

(iv) reduction to the lowest or any intermediate pay grade, if the grade from which demoted is within the promotion authority of the officer imposing the reduction or any officer subordinate to the one who imposes the reduction, by an enlisted member in a pay grade above E-4 may not be reduced more than two pay grades;

(v) extra duties, including fatigue or other duties, for not more than 45 consecutive days;

(vi) restriction to certain specified limits, with or without suspension from duty, for not more than 60 consecutive days;

(vii) detention of not more than one-half of one month's pay per month for three months.
 
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bignateyk

Lifer
Apr 22, 2002
11,288
7
0
Did this guy really think he was going to get a slap on the wrist for leaking thousands of classified documents and damaging the reputation of the USA? He should have seen it coming being the one who leaked all the documents showing that our government does whatever the hell it wants to do without concern for anyone else.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
126
The rules quoted above show this not to be a capital crime.

It's always the same debate with those who want to deprive people of their rights, if they did something that angers people.

"So he got raped in jail. So what? He did a crime, who cares?" "So the guards assaulted him. He did a crime, who cares?" It's a disgusting position.

It shows we have plenty who would be a mob, not people with any morals.

Try to tell these people to take any responsibility for their own crimes - it shows that 'power corrupts' applies to citizens of powerful countries, also.

They get infuriated if the truth is told.

Having said that, I suspect we should not assume Manning had noble motives for leaking. They may well have been petty and reckless. We don't know the facts yet.

IMO, justice would probably be a pardon after a short jail time - something that other leakers cannot count on (like Ellsberg's having the government misbehave causing charges to be dropped) so there's a deterrent against leaking wrongly for others, but some of these are 'political crimes', like the kid who was sentenced to 20 years for going to Afghanistan and joining them, before 9/11 at the same time the US government was sending the Taliban financial assistance.

Should their be any crime for whoever set the policy for so many documents so widely available to apparently millions of people? A crime for over-classifying?
 

actuarial

Platinum Member
Jan 22, 2009
2,814
0
71
I don't see where his rights under the UCMJ or Constitution has been violated. He will receive his court martial as directed by the UCMJ.

The code states he is not to be punished outside of ensuring he shows up at trial. Do you not consider solitary confinement a punishment?