Breaking NEWS: Reports of 50 Killed in Strike on Baghdad market

[justint]

from Reuters


on CNN now

 

[justint]

Originally posted by: human2k
Go USA!

WHAT????

 

[conjur]

Considering the last market that was hit appears to have been from Iraqi AA fire and not a U.S. bomb/missile...I'd like to see more info on this, which I'm sure will be coming soon.

for the civilians, though.

 

[joohang]

Originally posted by: conjur
Considering the last market that was hit appears to have been from Iraqi AA fire and not a U.S. bomb/missile...I'd like to see more info on this, which I'm sure will be coming soon.

for the civilians, though.

Yeah I agree.

This war is so damn confusing. As soon as I start reading the news in languages other than English, I get even more confused.

 

[shiner]

You know....this is a war and people do get killed. It's sad if 50 civilians were killed but you can't expect a war to be bloodless. This is not a video game and people are going to die. That being said we kill far fewer civilians in modern war than in past wars. Look up some civilian death numbers from WWII.

You might also want to do some research on how many Iraqi civilians have been killed by the Iraqi regime. Heck....look at home many are being killed right now over there by the likes of the Fedayeen......

 

[AAjax]

Thats sad if its true.

I for one would not be hanging around in a city that has been undergoing bombardment for the last 7 days.

 

[rudder]

Any civilians casualties are unacceptable, but one of the bad parts is it doesn't really matter whether it was coalition or Iraqi. The people there in the street will says it was an American bomb.

 

[bigdog1218]

You know....this is a war and people do get killed. It's sad if 50 civilians were killed but you can't expect a war to be bloodless. This is not a video game and people are going to die.

Do you think that line would work if bin laden said it to the families of the 9-11 bombings. Because you know where at war with terrorism, and you're just going to have to accept that innocent Americans are going to die.

 

[shiner]

Originally posted by: bigdog1218

You know....this is a war and people do get killed. It's sad if 50 civilians were killed but you can't expect a war to be bloodless. This is not a video game and people are going to die.

Do you think that line would work if bin laden said it to the families of the 9-11 bombings. Because you know where at war with terrorism, and you're just going to have to accept that innocent Americans are going to die.

Those two issues are not even close to being the same. Nice try though. The war in Iraq is against the regime in power there that has among other things tortured and killed it's own people, invaded a neighboring country, raped pillaged and plundered Kuwait while they occupied it, supported terrorists by supplying them with $ and training camps, used chemical weapons against it's own population, and on and on and on. The U.S. military is not purposely targeting civilians. Iraq on the other hand has targeted civilians in Israel and Kuwait in the past as well as it's own people in the past and in the present. Right now there are death squads firing on their own people to keep them from leaving the cities or surrendering to coalition troops. Why do people continue to ignore all of the above yet pounce every time a few Iraqi civilians are accidentally killed? Hell they may not have even been killed by one of our weapons. The Iraqi military blindly launches surface to air missiles in hopes of hitting a plane, well guess what....if they don't hit a plane those missiles have to come down somewhere.

As for Bin Laden and his thugs?.they are lawless animals who use terror as a weapon against civilians. To try and equate the tactics of terrorist who purposely target civilians to the accidental killings of Iraqi citizens is ridiculous. No, it's asinine and if you believe the two are equal then you need help. A lot of help.

 

[zodder]

You know....this is a war and people do get killed. It's sad if 50 civilians were killed but you can't expect a war to be bloodless. This is not a video game and people are going to die. That being said we kill far fewer civilians in modern war than in past wars. Look up some civilian death numbers from WWII.

Amen. It makes me sick that we have to justify every goddamn incident, too.

 

[conjur]

NPR had a reporter (Anne Garrels) talking about the crater and it was 5 feet in diameter and 4 feet deep. Is that typical of a cruise missile??

 

[Doboji]

oh wait you mean people got killed?... what the heck is going on... I mean you'd think this was a war or something?... My feeling is... when it reaches this point, I wanna hear about political and military objectives reached, not constant reminders of how we wish with all our hearts that this wasnt necessary. Noone actually wants a war, but noone really wants airplanes crashing into buildings either... make a choice? And abstaining is not an option

-Max

 

[bigdog1218]

Originally posted by: shinerburke

Originally posted by: bigdog1218

You know....this is a war and people do get killed. It's sad if 50 civilians were killed but you can't expect a war to be bloodless. This is not a video game and people are going to die.

Do you think that line would work if bin laden said it to the families of the 9-11 bombings. Because you know where at war with terrorism, and you're just going to have to accept that innocent Americans are going to die.

Those two issues are not even close to being the same. Nice try though. The war in Iraq is against the regime in power there that has among other things tortured and killed it's own people, invaded a neighboring country, raped pillaged and plundered Kuwait while they occupied it, supported terrorists by supplying them with $ and training camps, used chemical weapons against it's own population, and on and on and on. The U.S. military is not purposely targeting civilians. Iraq on the other hand has targeted civilians in Israel and Kuwait in the past as well as it's own people in the past and in the present. Right now there are death squads firing on their own people to keep them from leaving the cities or surrendering to coalition troops. Why do people continue to ignore all of the above yet pounce every time a few Iraqi civilians are accidentally killed? Hell they may not have even been killed by one of our weapons. The Iraqi military blindly launches surface to air missiles in hopes of hitting a plane, well guess what....if they don't hit a plane those missiles have to come down somewhere.

As for Bin Laden and his thugs?.they are lawless animals who use terror as a weapon against civilians. To try and equate the tactics of terrorist who purposely target civilians to the accidental killings of Iraqi citizens is ridiculous. No, it's asinine and if you believe the two are equal then you need help. A lot of help.

war is war. Whether you accidently kill the civilians or target them, You are still killing them. There is no difference, no one made the US attack Iraq, no one made them drop that bomb. Its murder, but its not murdering Americans so you could care less.

People have constantly said that we are at war with terrorism, well by your logic, the victims of 9-11 are just casualties of war.

 

[Nyical]

Only 5 feet in diameter and 4 feet deep

Thats not a cruise missle, they have a 1,000lb warhead.

A 500lb bomb leaves roughly a 10 to 15 foot deep and 20 to 25 in diameter.

 

[Doboji]

"war is war. Whether you accidently kill the civilians or target them, You are still killing them. There is no difference, no one made the US attack Iraq, no one made them drop that bomb. Its murder, but its not murdering Americans so you could care less.

People have constantly said that we are at war with terrorism, well by your logic, the victims of 9-11 are just casualties of war. "

I don't see your point?... if 9-11 was a legal way of fighting a war, then still we should try to win right?... because well losing means we die... so yes absolutely I want THEM to die... and it is just out of the goodness of our hearts that we dont resort to the same level of viscousness that our enemies are willing to go to... cuz if we were like them... there would be no Iraq, there'd only be a field of green glass.

Do I care about Iraqi's dying?... yes.... am I willing to kill, rape, maim and murder them to save my family and my loved ones?... you're gawdamned right I am... if thats what it takes.... then thats what it takes.... we can only thank god, that we have the LUXURY of being as nice as we have been

-Max

 

[kleinesarschloch]

many of you would be singing a different story if it was american civilians that were "accidentaly" killed. noone asked to be attacked and noone asked to be killed, accidentaly or otherwise. if i get killed by an airplane that crashed into a building or a cruise missile that missed its target, i am still dead.

 

[Mrburns2007]

Originally posted by: conjur
NPR had a reporter (Anne Garrels) talking about the crater and it was 5 feet in diameter and 4 feet deep. Is that typical of a cruise missile??

Knowing Saddam he is probably using car bombs or shells to anger is own people to get them to fight for him.

 

[Nyical]

If we really wanted too literally wipe Iraq civilians and there armed forces out this conflict could have been over before the first week was out.

Hmmm lets think here, 40 B-52's carpet bombing 4 times a day with just dumb bombs would level Bagdad and the surrounding area, but since this conflic is againts Saddam and his regime who love to put there people in harms way by putting military targets in areas were by rights should never be there yes civillians will get hurt and killed.

Even if it was a cruise missle there was a very good chance that it wasn't aimed at the market but over flying it
and if I remember correctly during the first Gulf conflict the same thing happened then, the Iraq military would shoot at the missile and damage some part of its guidance system that would bring it down in a civilian area and kill
the civilians in the blast radius, and I think our Government even told the Iraq Military not to shoot at the missiles
because this could happen.

I could be wrong, but this is just my opinion.

 

[shiner]

Originally posted by: bigdog1218

Originally posted by: shinerburke

Originally posted by: bigdog1218

You know....this is a war and people do get killed. It's sad if 50 civilians were killed but you can't expect a war to be bloodless. This is not a video game and people are going to die.

Do you think that line would work if bin laden said it to the families of the 9-11 bombings. Because you know where at war with terrorism, and you're just going to have to accept that innocent Americans are going to die.

Those two issues are not even close to being the same. Nice try though. The war in Iraq is against the regime in power there that has among other things tortured and killed it's own people, invaded a neighboring country, raped pillaged and plundered Kuwait while they occupied it, supported terrorists by supplying them with $ and training camps, used chemical weapons against it's own population, and on and on and on. The U.S. military is not purposely targeting civilians. Iraq on the other hand has targeted civilians in Israel and Kuwait in the past as well as it's own people in the past and in the present. Right now there are death squads firing on their own people to keep them from leaving the cities or surrendering to coalition troops. Why do people continue to ignore all of the above yet pounce every time a few Iraqi civilians are accidentally killed? Hell they may not have even been killed by one of our weapons. The Iraqi military blindly launches surface to air missiles in hopes of hitting a plane, well guess what....if they don't hit a plane those missiles have to come down somewhere.

As for Bin Laden and his thugs?.they are lawless animals who use terror as a weapon against civilians. To try and equate the tactics of terrorist who purposely target civilians to the accidental killings of Iraqi citizens is ridiculous. No, it's asinine and if you believe the two are equal then you need help. A lot of help.

war is war. Whether you accidently kill the civilians or target them, You are still killing them. There is no difference, no one made the US attack Iraq, no one made them drop that bomb. Its murder, but its not murdering Americans so you could care less.

People have constantly said that we are at war with terrorism, well by your logic, the victims of 9-11 are just casualties of war.

No, they were casualties of a vicious and cowardly attack by people who's only tie to being human is that they share the same DNA the rest of us do. Purposely targeting innocent civilians is completely different than a bomb or missile accidentally hitting a civilian population area. What would you have us do? I suppose we should just line up and march in with flowers in our hands and hope our overwhelming good intentions would lead to the bad guys seeing the error of their ways.

You cannot equate targeting civilians, in the way terrorists do, to the carrying out of a military operation. We do not target civilians, if we wanted to do so we could and Iraq would be a smoking hole right now and the war could have been over in 72 hours or so. It is unfortunate that some Iraqi civilians may have been accidentally killed by our weapons, but it was not intention. What is intentional is the way in which the Fedayeen Saddam and Republican Guard are currently turning their weapons on the Iraqi people. Where is your outrage about that? Why is it that people only seem to care when the U.S. accidentally kills some civilians? Let Iraq kill as many of it's on people it wants but God forbid an errant missile kill a few civilians.

 

[steell]

Sure would be interesting to know how many Iraqi people have been killed by their own forces since the war began. I would bet that a lot more civilians have been killed by Iraqi's than by Coalition Forces.

And that crater is about the right size to have been formed by an AA round falling from the sky.

 

[conjur]

Originally posted by: Nyical
Only 5 feet in diameter and 4 feet deep

Thats not a cruise missle, they have a 1,000lb warhead.

A 500lb bomb leaves roughly a 10 to 15 foot deep and 20 to 25 in diameter.

Thanks.

And from an article I read earlier today where the surviving members of the family said it was a cruise missile that destroyed their house, I highly doubt it truly was. A cruise missile would have destroyed probably that whole neighborhood and I seriously doubt any family members would have survived a direct hit like that!

 

[Loralon]

And that crater is about the right size to have been formed by an AA round falling from the sky.

After finally getting a chance to see a picture of the crater, I'd have to say that the suggestion that it was the result of a large caliber AA round seems reasonable to me. From the photo I saw I don't believe the crater was much more than two feet deep, if that. As Nyical has already suggested, even a bomb as small 500lb would leave a considerably larger crater when exploding on direct impact with that type of surface. To my knowledge coalition aircraft having been using bombs anywhere near that small, rather: 1,000lb warheads from Tomahawks, 2,000lb JDAMs, and last night I believe some special ~4,700lb bunker busters were deployed.