Breaking- Church shooting in TX

[Doc Savage Fan]

I should clarify: either the media's impression about where the gunshow loophole lies is wrong, or your impression of the media's interpretation is wrong. Either way, you absolutely know that private sales at gunshows are an exception to the law, therefore there is a loophole that you admit.

So it isn't a myth, regardless of who is wrong in your equation, right?

It's my understanding that a private sale between individuals does not require a background check...regardless of whether or not the sale happened to occur at a gun show. The "gun show loophole" is a misnomer at best....there is no gun show loophole (this kind of dishonest rhetoric is all too common among liberals imo). Licensed dealers are required by federal law to run background checks for all gun sales....regardless of whether these sales occur at a gun show or not.

 

[[DHT]Osiris]

Ok, some kind of tests/more training to make sure the buyer is good/competent to use the gun(s) as you would with any buyer for any vehicle. I can live with that.

So how would that or any current measurement/restriction stop guys like LV shooter? (serious question)

Sorry, to clarify, I meant a nation-wide increase in mental health research\awareness, with the specific intent on locating individuals who are in need of mental 'medical' attention, in the same way we do for physical and (arguably) spiritual wellness. In theory, this could have 'teased out' whatever it was that was going on in this person's head which give this particular person a proclivity toward violence, and either treat it or at least prevent them from obtain a weapon, while not limiting the rights of citizens who aren't prone to this kind of behavior.

Mind you, I expect this to be a rather expensive, and long-term endeavor, not something that happens overnight. I also think it's a solid way of approaching this issue without trodding over the rights of citizens, and as a bonus, it could put the US front-and-center on something again, with dramatic advancements in understanding the human mind and furthering our species' knowledge of how our brains work.

 

[Bird222]

I pay the dealer if I buy from them already. No reason a dealer couldn't be used on a private party sale, imo.

So are private party sales common place across most of the country? I have no idea but I could buy 10 today off of craigs list with logistics being the only problem here in S.C.

Make it easier than that. If somebody wants to buy my gun I just open NICS on my phone and run a check, bam done.

 

[Jhhnn]

That's great but how are you going to make sure these criminals only get those kinds of weapons?

We can limit access by barring sales & transfers of such items & their components. What's already out there will be out there indefinitely until wear, tear & misadventure make them unserviceable.

 

[HumblePie]

The private sales also occur at gunshows though, don't they? I've never seen a politician arguing about closing down gunshows--I've only seen arguments about shutting down private sales where no background checks are performed--there or elsewhere. I feel like this is changing the actual policy goal in your mind in order to argue against it. A sort of "the media is saying it this way, therefore they can't comment" ...sorta like "LOL--that guy said clip instead of magazine! He is an idiot and therefore invalid when discussing this issue!"

I've only ever seen this issue as one of private sales which as I understand, occurring frequently at gunshows, to be the issue. That is how I have always interpreted "The Gunshow loophole" --a part of the classic gunshow sales, not the entire culture of gunshows.

I'd be happy if you can point out a politician that simply wants to shut down all gunshows. I haven't seen that. Of course, this depends on how well-regulated the dealer sales are at these things. Do these guys mail you your guns a month or two later after the gunshow has left?

Vast majority of sales at gun shows are through FFL dealers. Everyone that has a booth at any gun show I know of is REQUIRED to have an FFL if they are selling guns. Of course not all booths sell guns there at all.

The thing is, many people like to bring a gun or two with them to the show with the intent to sell it off as a private sale. They sling a nice modded AR15 around their shoulder and walk around enjoying the show. Other people at the show see them and invariably ask if said firearm is for sale. Most gun shows don't let them do private sales inside the area the show is being held. So they get a stamp on their hands, walk to their cars in the parking lot and do a private transaction sale.

Other people prior to a gun show and looking to sell off their privately own guns will list those guns for sale on some site like craigslist with the intention to meet the other person at a gunshow parking lot to complete the deal. For whatever reason, people are more comfortable selling a used privately own firearm that way. Been doing that for a long time, just before the ads were in the newspaper personals section instead of craigslist.

That is why the coined termed "gunshow loophole" is just ridiculously bad. There is no loophole at all. Private sales without background checks do not happen in the gunshow area. Private sales, no matter where they occur, have never been required by the Federal, State, or Local governments to use the NICS background application to complete a private sale where such a sale occurs at. Right now though to use the NICS system, a person is required to own an FFL which is not cheap to get. Hence why people charge for that service. I have no problem opening up the NICS system to allow free background checks for gun sales between private individuals for free at all though.


To also clarify something else. If you are licensed dealer. IE you own an FFL, then you are never allowed by law to do a private sale of a firearm. Every firearm you sell must have a background check applied. Failure to do so is a strict penalty.

 

[highland145]

The private sales also occur at gunshows though, don't they? I've never seen a politician arguing about closing down gunshows--I've only seen arguments about shutting down private sales where no background checks are performed--there or elsewhere. I feel like this is changing the actual policy goal in your mind in order to argue against it. A sort of "the media is saying it this way, therefore they can't comment" ...sorta like "LOL--that guy said clip instead of magazine! He is an idiot and therefore invalid when discussing this issue!" And we disagree

I've only ever seen this issue as one of private sales which as I understand, occurring frequently at gunshows, to be the issue. That is how I have always interpreted "The Gunshow loophole" --a part of the classic gunshow sales, not the entire culture of gunshows.

I'd be happy if you can point out a politician that simply wants to shut down all gunshows. You missed the entire anti gun movement? I haven't seen that. Of course, this depends on how well-regulated the dealer sales are at these things. Do these guys mail you your guns a month or two later after the gunshow has left?

Above.

Ok, all bullshit aside here, would you be ok if there was a national registry implemented to track who owns what weapons across the country? If so, thank you, that's a reasonable step towards making a difference. Close any and all loopholes, private sales need to be tracked on the registry as well, like a vehicle. Again, if you're good with this, thank you, we have actually started a productive conversation about the gun violence epidemic

Registry, not retroactively. Having to get background checks and maintain the records for private party sales? Suite me just fine if I can get the local dealer/sheriff to do it for a similar fee that I already pay him for sales. That will start the registry you want and keeps me from selling to a felon or buying a stolen gun.

Make everybody fill out 4473s and get the NICS check for all firearm sales, private or otherwise. The ATF can require dealers to process 3rd party transfers for set fees that cover their costs.

I've bought many a gun at gun shows over the years and don't consider this onerous at all.

See above. It's not onerous at all. New purchases can be made here in minutes as long as the check system isn't down.

 

[blackangst1]

Perhaps not, but perhaps he would have been caught trying to illegally buy guns and instead of killing a bunch of people would be sitting in a jail awaiting a trial.

To be clear, if the Air Force hadnt fucked by not having his name put on the federal felon database, when he applied for a gun he wouldnt have been arrested. He would simply be denied.

Im a legal gun owner, and believe in putting as many checks in place as needed to keep weapons out of the hands of people who should not have them. With that said, I have yet to see a proposal for any new law that would simply prevent gun deaths. Its a fantasy.

 

[[DHT]Osiris]

The freakin' AF reporting his conviction would have stopped him. Assuming he didn't just go get a weapon illegally.

Having served in the military, I have some very, very strong opinions about how things like this are often handled. I saw many, many instances of people committing felonious behavior eventually getting a pass, and either staying in, or getting a General Discharge because 'we don't want to ruin his career/life'. Lots and lots and lots of softies higher up who refuse to actually mete out punishment to individuals who do wrong, to make them do right. Having said that, there's also an intense cultural pressure on those higher ups to behave this way, because a single smudge on a record can substantially limit your career prospects, with zero recourse and zero forgiveness. So, no idea how to address that really.

I guarantee you this individual is one of thousands, if not tens of thousands of people that have likely done something in the military that should have been reported, should have been punished, and should probably keep them from owning a weapon, unless those issues are addressed through a very advanced and aggressive form of mental therapy/'healing' (whatever that looks like). We hear about the very small percentage of those individuals who actually act on impulses/desires/whatever during a timeframe when they have access to a dangerous weapon and end up on the news. But really, it's more like sizzling bacon, just because you only occasionally get hit by the popping fat, doesn't mean there's not a whole lot more going on in the pan.

 

[Jhhnn]

Why can't the government just make the background check system free (I know it's not really free) to everybody and make it very accessible? That would help some I think.


Make it easier than that. If somebody wants to buy my gun I just open NICS on my phone and run a check, bam done.

Because smaller gubmint Republicans won't pay for it. If eliminating the whole system led to significantly lower taxes for their mega rich donors they'd go for it in a heartbeat.

 

[HumblePie]

Because smaller gubmint Republicans won't pay for it. If eliminating the whole system led to significantly lower taxes for their mega rich donors they'd go for it in a heartbeat.

How about making a law that puts an extra tax on every registered democrat to pay for making the NICS system available to everyone? If democrats are so adamant it is needed, then they would have no problem footing the bill for everyone else right? Money where your mouth is.

 

[GagHalfrunt]

Perhaps not, but perhaps he would have been caught trying to illegally buy guns and instead of killing a bunch of people would be sitting in a jail awaiting a trial.

Wouldn't the same thing be accomplished more effectively by making it impossible to legally buy that kind of gun? Then you weed out both the known sociopaths (few) and the incredible number of nascent sociopaths? There is jack shit that the government can do to weed out the potential mass murderers, what is the fucking problem with limiting the potential damage they can do by restricting military grade weapons? We should be attacking both sides of this issue. Do everything possible to identify the ticking time bombs AND do everything possible to lessen the body count when many of the psychos inevitably slip through the cracks.

 

[zinfamous]

It's my understanding that a private sale between individuals does not require a background check...regardless of whether or not the sale happened to occur at a gun show. The "gun show loophole" is a misnomer at best....there is no gun show loophole (this kind of dishonest rhetoric is all too common among liberals imo). Licensed dealers are required by federal law to run background checks for all gun sales....regardless of whether these sales occur at a gun show or not.

I've seen both Highland and Humble Pie now say that not all sales at gunshows occur from licensed dealers.

so which is it? Are private, unlicensed sales occurring at gunshows, regardless of whether or not there are mostly licensed sales occurring? seems like a really simple yes or no, but all I see are a lot of circuitous verbiage in answering that question.

 

[K1052]

With that said, I have yet to see a proposal for any new law that would simply prevent gun deaths. Its a fantasy.

Total ban on semi-auto weapons except for LEOs.

 

[blackangst1]

Total ban on semi-auto weapons except for LEOs.

Because a ban would eliminate the millions of weapons already out there? LOL Like I said, a fantasy.

 

[zinfamous]

Above.

Registry, not retroactively. Having to get background checks and maintain the records for private party sales? Suite me just fine if I can get the local dealer/sheriff to do it for a similar fee that I already pay him for sales. That will start the registry you want and keeps me from selling to a felon or buying a stolen gun.

See above. It's not onerous at all. New purchases can be made here in minutes as long as the check system isn't down.

heh, obviously we disagree about that point--but it's not whether or not we disagree. One should be able to point to whether or not someone actually wants to do x, or whether they don't. That's really quite important.

We're going to keep disagreeing until I see some dude's platform that says that the whole gunshow concept is the problem, rather than specific unregulated sales that occur at gun shows. I hear that this is "a misnomer," but with a bit of hand-waving that "yeah, unlicensed sales are a problem," ....but "because they use the wrong terms to describe the problem, we really can't do anything about it!"

this...seems terribly infantile to me.

 

[HumblePie]

Wouldn't the same thing be accomplished more effectively by making it impossible to legally buy that kind of gun? Then you weed out both the known sociopaths (few) and the incredible number of nascent sociopaths? There is jack shit that the government can do to weed out the potential mass murderers, what is the fucking problem with limiting the potential damage they can do by restricting military grade weapons? We should be attacking both sides of this issue. Do everything possible to identify the ticking time bombs AND do everything possible to lessen the body count when many of the psychos inevitably slip through the cracks.

Ban all guns!

https://www.washingtonpost.com/worl...01687974517_story.html?utm_term=.2fe39e95bc87

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oklahoma_City_bombing

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halabja_chemical_attack

Because guns are the only way people can commit mass murders.

 

[Doc Savage Fan]

I've seen both Highland and Humble Pie now say that not all sales at gunshows occur from licensed dealers.

so which is it? Are private, unlicensed sales occurring at gunshows, regardless of whether or not there are mostly licensed sales occurring? seems like a really simple yes or no, but all I see are a lot of circuitous verbiage in answering that question.

Highland and Humble Pie are correct...not all sales at gun shows occur from licensed dealers. And yes...private, unlicensed sales do occur at gun shows. Individuals at gun shows are not required to have dealer licenses. I don't understand why your having so much difficulty with this.

 

[fskimospy]

It's my understanding that a private sale between individuals does not require a background check...regardless of whether or not the sale happened to occur at a gun show. The "gun show loophole" is a misnomer at best....there is no gun show loophole (this kind of dishonest rhetoric is all too common among liberals imo). Licensed dealers are required by federal law to run background checks for all gun sales....regardless of whether these sales occur at a gun show or not.

There is most certainly a gun show loophole but it is more accurately described as a 'private sale loophole' and yes, private sales can easily occur at most gun shows. If anything the 'gun show' aspect of it understates just how large the loophole is.

Before calling out other people's 'dishonest rhetoric' you should know literally the first thing about the topic.

 

[K1052]

Because a ban would eliminate the millions of weapons already out there? LOL Like I said, a fantasy.

Stage a one year buyback where everybody gets full MSRP for turned in weapons. After that NFA criminal penalties for use of such weapons, permanent amnesty for turned in guns going forward. Should get most of them.

 

[fskimospy]

Highland and Humble Pie are correct. And yes...private, unlicensed sales do occur at gun shows....as individuals are not required to have licenses. I don't understand why your having so much difficulty with this.

So in other words you think there is no 'gun show loophole' because despite there being a 'loophole' that frequently occurs at 'gun shows' the fact that this loophole is in fact even larger than liberals suggest by using that name, by underselling its true magnitude they are being dishonest.

Jesus christ what is wrong with people.

 

[zinfamous]

Vast majority of sales at gun shows are through FFL dealers. Everyone that has a booth at any gun show I know of is REQUIRED to have an FFL if they are selling guns. Of course not all booths sell guns there at all.

The thing is, many people like to bring a gun or two with them to the show with the intent to sell it off as a private sale. They sling a nice modded AR15 around their shoulder and walk around enjoying the show. Other people at the show see them and invariably ask if said firearm is for sale. Most gun shows don't let them do private sales inside the area the show is being held. So they get a stamp on their hands, walk to their cars in the parking lot and do a private transaction sale.

Other people prior to a gun show and looking to sell off their privately own guns will list those guns for sale on some site like craigslist with the intention to meet the other person at a gunshow parking lot to complete the deal. For whatever reason, people are more comfortable selling a used privately own firearm that way. Been doing that for a long time, just before the ads were in the newspaper personals section instead of craigslist.

That is why the coined termed "gunshow loophole" is just ridiculously bad. There is no loophole at all. Private sales without background checks do not happen in the gunshow area. Private sales, no matter where they occur, have never been required by the Federal, State, or Local governments to use the NICS background application to complete a private sale where such a sale occurs at. Right now though to use the NICS system, a person is required to own an FFL which is not cheap to get. Hence why people charge for that service. I have no problem opening up the NICS system to allow free background checks for gun sales between private individuals for free at all though.


To also clarify something else. If you are licensed dealer. IE you own an FFL, then you are never allowed by law to do a private sale of a firearm. Every firearm you sell must have a background check applied. Failure to do so is a strict penalty.

I had to go back to this specifically....holy shit this is fundamentally retarded. I have no idea how you can be honest with yourself and claim that people show up specifically to make private, no BGC sales at gunshows, and then say they don't occur because they go out to their cars to do it...after getting a stamp on their hands.

You admit that there is a real gunshow loophole, this is exactly what it is and has always been, and then handwave it away because "LoL--you haven't been there so you just don't get it!"

This is why there is no progress, because you refuse to deal in the one fundamental plain of reality where a thing that is a thing...really is a thing. It's like I should be telling you that when I go to Phish show to buy drugs, I'm not doing it at the show because I'm only doing it in the parking lot. (guilty). Would you look at me with a straight face, making such a claim?

 

[bradly1101]

Most gun shows don't let them do private sales inside the area the show is being held. So they get a stamp on their hands, walk to their cars in the parking lot and do a private transaction sale.

Are you sure it's "most?" Why is it not "all?"

"Despite what some may say, there is no such thing as a “gun show loophole.” Sales through FFL dealers and private transactions at a gun show function exactly the same as they would outside of a gun show."

"Gun control advocates who push for “closing the gun show loophole” are actually proposing to ban private sales entirely."

Huh? Shows are maligned for their wide availability including of different models, and the ease of obtaining a gun there by a criminal who can just check a box in many cases (as I know is the case with any private sale).

https://www.nrablog.com/articles/2016/3/buying-and-selling-a-firearm-gun-shows/

"Gun show loophole, gun law loophole, Brady law loophole (or Brady bill loophole), private sale loophole, and private sale exemption are political terms in the United States referring to sales of firearms by private sellers, including those done at gun shows, dubbed the "secondary market".[1] The term refers to the concept that a loophole in federal law exists, under which "[a]ny person may sell a firearm to an unlicensed resident of the state where they reside, as long as they do not know or have reasonable cause to believe the person is prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_show_loophole

 

[HumblePie]

heh, obviously we disagree about that point--but it's not whether or not we disagree. One should be able to point to whether or not someone actually wants to do x, or whether they don't. That's really quite important.

We're going to keep disagreeing until I see some dude's platform that says that the whole gunshow concept is the problem, rather than specific unregulated sales that occur at gun shows. I hear that this is "a misnomer," but with a bit of hand-waving that "yeah, unlicensed sales are a problem," ....but "because they use the wrong terms to describe the problem, we really can't do anything about it!"

this...seems terribly infantile to me.

The problem is that politicians and media call it a "gunshow loophole" and thus directly conflate gunshows, private party sales, and sales without background checks into a big bad "legal loophole" as if it was something that originally intended to not be legally allowed. The term "loophole" makes it seem like the intent of some law had gone awry in the wording or forgot to cover something. There was no law ever forcing background checks on private party sales. By using "gunshow" as a term that are demonizing gunshows and people that go to them making them all seem like people there are all doing something shady and just barely legal using "loopholes" in the law.

The truth is nothing of the sort. The concocted terms are just that. They are meant to give people like you fear and something else to denounce/whine over while being blissfully ignorant.

 

[zinfamous]

Highland and Humble Pie are correct. And yes...private, unlicensed sales do occur at gun shows REGARDLESS of whether or not the sale occurs at a gun show...individuals at gun shows are not required to have dealer licenses. I don't understand why your having so much difficulty with this.

Obviously i'm not the one having difficulty with this. Obviously, you guys are admitting there is the one gunshow loophole that has only ever been talked about, but saying it isn't so because people make their sales in their cars, in the parking lots....at the gunshow or, rather "the special place designated to sale guns outside of this show."

you can't make this shit up. Gaslighting at its finest.

 

[blackangst1]

Stage a one year buyback where everybody gets full MSRP for turned in weapons. After that NFA criminal penalties for use of such weapons, permanent amnesty for turned in guns going forward. Should get most of them.

And what about legal gun owners? Include them too?