Breaking- Church shooting in TX

[Genx87]

That's the thing though. Regularly polled it's at 90+ percent who want background checks on all purchases and yet it's not happening. They won't even talk about it. I mean Jesus over 90% want it and yet they won't do it.

What else in the U.S. can quote support that high?

Outside of a private sale that still ultimately falls under the law of selling to somebody who is a felon. Or it is black market which nobody follows the law anyways. What more background checks do you want? This guy went through a local and federal background check when he bought an AR-15 and passed because the govt failed to update its own records. The law would had barred him from legally owning this weapon if incompetence didnt get in the way.

 

[MomentsofSanity]

Outside of a private sale that still ultimately falls under the law of selling to somebody who is a felon. Or it is black market which nobody follows the law anyways. What more background checks do you want? This guy went through a local and federal background check when he bought an AR-15 and passed because the govt failed to update its own records. The law would had barred him from legally owning this weapon if incompetence didnt get in the way.

You can't see bigger picture can you?

 

[Genx87]

Well that's depressing.

Edit: It just got more depressing when I thought about the type of people we are referring to here that weren't reported. The underlying potential issues they have.

It is shocking to me in 2017 how a failure like this not only happened once. But has had to happen thousands of times before. How many people like this guy were kicked out of the military and their crimes not reported to the FBI?

 

[bradly1101]

welcome to america.

The likelihood seems so remote given our history and democratic institutions/protections. I wonder why the government would take such action unless there was some sort of armed insurgency. Oh I forgot about Waco and Ruby Ridge. Now I get it?

Also I guess I can more understand why "they're coming for our guns" is such a rallying cry.

 

[Genx87]

You can't see bigger picture can you?

I see the bigger picture. Do you? To purchase this gun from any dealer requires upto two background checks. What more do you want? This guy buying this gun didnt happen due to a lack of background checks. It happened because of incompetence within our govt to update records.

 

[MomentsofSanity]

I see the bigger picture. Do you? To purchase this gun from any dealer requires upto two background checks. What more do you want? This guy buying this gun didnt happen due to a lack of background checks. It happened because of incompetence within our govt to update records.

We aren't talking about THIS incident in a vacuum. That's the bigger picture.

 

[zinfamous]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...unmans-methodical-tactics-in-church-massacre/



Quick, just make up shit about how you know for sure he was done killing people because "It's so just because I wish it was and have to defend my agenda at all desperate costs!" is the most surefire debate tactic ever devised.

And yet you know for sure that he wasn't? holy fuck are you having a lifelong BOGO at your tool store or something?

 

[Genx87]

We aren't talking about THIS incident in a vacuum. That's the bigger picture.

Of course which is why I said two background checks to buy this gun from any dealer. What other background checks do you want?

 

[Svnla]

Are there non-FFL licensed gun dealers at your local gun shows?

The sellers with tables/displays were FFL license holders (from my own observation/my asking and I saw several people were filing out the paperwork while I was there). I did not know for sure if ALL of them (every single one of them/no exception) were FFL or not. I did see a few guys walked around as private sellers with guns on them and with signs that those guns were for sale. I would not touch them because a) I would not know if the guns were legal or not and b) The prices were not that great and c) I would not want to buy used guns but it is just me.

 

[Zaap]

And yet you know for sure that he wasn't? holy fuck are you having a lifelong BOGO at your tool store or something?

So in other words, YOU were one just making up shit that you knew he was done killing people- even though you can't possibly know that- just so you can desperately try to discredit that an armed citizen prevented him the possibility. A guy who just shot up a church and had 4 more weapons in his car.

Yeah, how preposterous to assume you STOP this person, rather than let them just go about his merry way still fully armed. That whole err on the side of caution thing? Totally out the window because a loon like you WANTS to believe something...

If that's the desperate 'argument' (ie ass-pulled belief) you MUST cling to in your feeble mind to feel you're right... well... I'm not surprised.

 

[MomentsofSanity]

Of course which is why I said two background checks to buy this gun from any dealer. What other background checks do you want?

No firearm should be able to change hands without a legal requirement for the individual being confirmed as eligible to own firearms. Full stop.

 

[Svnla]

Well that's depressing.

Edit: It just got more depressing when I thought about the type of people we are referring to here that weren't reported. The underlying potential issues they have.

That's why we need to ENFORCE the current laws we have BEFORE we create more laws.

 

[Younigue]

You suggested you were being subtle or nuanced not me. It's pretty clear you can't debate a heated topic without insults again makes you a troll. You tell me 'genius' what in this post of yours answers this question (read it real slowly this time maybe you'll get it) "Why is the government 'mentally equipped' to have guns?"

Your non-answer- "I have more confidence in humankind than pro-gunners, you peculiar ****. I believe Americans can be better than their guns, their current educational system, current healthcare predicament, current economical distribution, current climate, current government.

Believing guns are required in a free and advanced society is the epitome of no faith in humankind. Don't be weird, psycho.

If you fear the government so much, why not argue for better government rather than the finer points of guns and the preference of which ones to own?

When the light is just right, do you blind yourself in the mirror? I use foil to wrap my celery, it lasts a good long while that way. Hashtag: otherusesforaluminumfoil!"

Lol, I suggested you were too simple to comprehend. That would make any answer a mystery to you.

Proving my point Bird.

 

[MomentsofSanity]

That's why we need to ENFORCE the current laws we have BEFORE we create more laws.

OR we could evaluate the entire process and find new protections as well as shore up holes in current law.

 

[Genx87]

No firearm should be able to change hands without a legal requirement for the individual being confirmed as eligible to own firearms. Full stop.

I'm fine with that but how does one regulate that on back alley sales or private sales?

At some point we must realize enacting another background check has a diminishing return. And other people just break the law.

And for the most part private sales are regulated as it is illegal to sell to a felon. Or somebody who is clearly intent on committing a crime with the weapon.

 

[ch33zw1z]

The likelihood seems so remote given our history and democratic institutions/protections. I wonder why the government would take such action unless there was some sort of armed insurgency. Oh I forgot about Waco and Ruby Ridge. Now I get it?

Also I guess I can more understand why "they're coming for our guns" is such a rallying cry.

well, back when we broke free from europe, there was more context to distributed power, but its since been consolidated, so its a tough call.

 

[MomentsofSanity]

I'm fine with that but how does one regulate that on back alley sales or private sales?

At some point you must realize enacting another background check has a diminishing return. And other people just break the law.

And for the most part private sales are regulated as it is illegal to sell to a felon. Or somebody who is clearly intent on committing a crime with the weapon.

It's not hard to figure it out. You seem to be arguing that if you can prevent everything than why do anything.

 

[Svnla]

OR we could evaluate the entire process and find new protections as well as shore up holes in current law.

Ok, I am all ears.

Everyone very much agree that if the background check system works as it should be, then this guy would not able to purchase that gun.

How do we stop guys like the shooter in Las Vegas? That's what I want to know. How to evaluate the current system to stop bastards like him (no criminal/violence record).

 

[Genx87]

It's not hard to figure it out. You seem to be arguing that if you can prevent everything than why do anything.

Not at all as I am fine with creating a law explicitly including private sales. But I am also pointing out we already de-facto cover private sales. Back alley sales will never be covered. And for the most part many people will go through at least two background checks before purchasing an AR-15 under our current system.

 

[Younigue]

You suggested you were being subtle or nuanced not me. It's pretty clear you can't debate a heated topic without insults again makes you a troll. You tell me 'genius' what in this post of yours answers this question (read it real slowly this time maybe you'll get it) "Why is the government 'mentally equipped' to have guns?"

Your non-answer- "I have more confidence in humankind than pro-gunners, you peculiar ****. I believe Americans can be better than their guns, their current educational system, current healthcare predicament, current economical distribution, current climate, current government.

Believing guns are required in a free and advanced society is the epitome of no faith in humankind. Don't be weird, psycho.

If you fear the government so much, why not argue for better government rather than the finer points of guns and the preference of which ones to own?

When the light is just right, do you blind yourself in the mirror? I use foil to wrap my celery, it lasts a good long while that way. Hashtag: otherusesforaluminumfoil!"

The "direct" answer? By having faith in the people... So much so that I believe we can control the government thereby eliminating the concern that the government isn't mentally equipped. My previous answer alluded to that. You missed it, how is that possible? Too (unintentionally) subtle (because I gave you the benefit of the doubt that you could deduce my meaning)?

Oh, and as for insulting you? I enjoy it. It amuses me. Calling me a troll, affects me in no way... In fact, that amuses me as well. * edit... I guess that's an affect.

Thank you for quoting me to make your non-point. Silly non-pointer!

 

[MomentsofSanity]

Not at all as I am fine with creating a law explicitly including private sales. But I am also pointing out we already de-facto cover private sales. Back alley sales will never be covered. And for the most part many people will go through at least two background checks before purchasing an AR-15.

Are you trying to say that in a private sale the eligibility of the buyer is actually verified? Or are you using "well they said they could buy it" as some sort of acceptable confirmation? If the latter you are again missing the entire point.

Maybe it's because I'm Canadian and we have actual steps and procedures required to ensure that any private sale is done to ensure the purchaser is eligible. When I sell unrestricted firearms privately I have to verify that the purchaser is legally eligible to acquire firearms.

 

[[DHT]Osiris]

Ok, I am all ears.

Everyone very much agree that if the background check system works as it should be, then this guy would not able to purchase that gun.

How do we stop guys like the shooter in Las Vegas? That's what I want to know. How to evaluate the current system to stop bastards like him (no criminal/violence record).

A dramatic increase in mental health sciences, and evaluation procedures to determine whether a person is mentally fit enough to legally own weapons. Note: this would probably have stopped this person as well.

 

[woolfe9998]

Not at all as I am fine with creating a law explicitly including private sales. But I am also pointing out we already de-facto cover private sales. Back alley sales will never be covered. And for the most part many people will go through at least two background checks before purchasing an AR-15 under our current system.

We can always pass a law which says that anyone selling a firearm without using the proper procedures to verify eligibility is a responsible for any crimes subsequently committed with said firearm as the equivalent of a co-conspirator. That might provide sufficient incentive to curb even the back alley sales.

 

[MomentsofSanity]

We can always pass a law which says that anyone selling a firearm without using the proper procedures to verify eligibility is a responsible for any crimes subsequently committed with said firearm as the equivalent of a co-conspirator. That might provide sufficient incentive to curb even the back alley sales.

The real problem here is without registration there's no way to show the transfer. And we both know that won't happen which is also part of the problem.

 

[Svnla]

A dramatic increase in mental health sciences, and evaluation procedures to determine whether a person is mentally fit enough to legally own weapons. Note: this would probably have stopped this person as well.

Ok, some kind of tests/more training to make sure the buyer is good/competent to use the gun(s) as you would with any buyer for any vehicle. I can live with that.

So how would that or any current measurement/restriction stop guys like LV shooter? (serious question)