Breaking- Church shooting in TX

[Paratus]

A couple of weeks ago at work during Safety Day, we had a presentation that can illustrate some of the points about how having access to a weapon can increase risk to you and your family.

The speaker we had, former commander of the USS Greeneville Scott Waddle, was not there to talk about gun safety. He was there to give his account of the Ehime Maru and USS Greeneville collision.

It’s a tragic story about the circumstances leading up to the Greeneville emergency surfacing under the Ehime Maru a Japanese Training ship for teen fishermen. The sun tore through the fishing vessel which sank in less than 5 minutes killing several peoples including teens.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ehime_Maru_and_USS_Greeneville_collision

The part I want to refer to was when Waddle relayed the emotional aftermath of being responsible for those deaths.

He said that while waiting for the Naval trial to determine culpability, in his shame and despair, he came very close to retrieving his weapon, shooting his wife and daughter and then committing suicide.

Needless to say I found that part fairly shocking. Suicide I could maybe understand, but taking his wife and daughter with him? That’s some seriously screwed up thinking (and probably says something about him and how he saw his family as an extension of himself instead of individuals).

Now Waddle didn’t act on his impulse, barely, by his own account. I am sure however, that before the incident he never thought he would get to be a hairs breadth away from killing himself and his family.

While most people are not going to be sub commanders who played a role in killing civilians, bad shit can happen to anyone. With 100M people owning weapons there is something screwed up happing multiple times a day to gun owners.

Some of them will not be able to control themselves as Waddle did and then you end up with someone shooting up a church to try and kill their in-laws.

If you think it’s not likely to be you - your probably right

If you think it can’t be you - your dead wrong.

 

[Victorian Gray]

He should start smoking pot

I'll vape to that. 😀

 

[bradly1101]

I keep hearing on the news things like if the Air Force had entered his conviction in the database, the shooter would have been prevented from purchasing or possessing a gun.

Huh? The should have added "legally."

 

[Younigue]

How do you propose taking all guns away from criminals?

Well, as you may have guessed I'm not an expert but other countries have managed. We American's prefer to think we're better than anyone else... Are you saying we're not up to the task because we're inferior? So what's more "American" keeping our guns because we're too dumb to sort it out OR start AND succeed in diminishing the problem to manageable because we're smart and decent enough to?

I don't claim to have all the answers but I swear it on everything holy... excuse me, I mean guns... That because I, Younique do not possess all the answers does NOT mean there aren't any.

But seriously though. I love the confidence you have in me! Made my heart.... Do nothing but if I liked you at all it may have pitter-pattered a bit.

 

[Younigue]

If only the shooter had believed in baby jesus none of this would've happened.

Nah, his [Jesus's] "Dad" woulda been all for it... right?

 

[vi edit]

You've effectively removed yourself from any 'improvement' in the situation. If your position is only "ban all guns" you've also removed yourself from any discussions which have the potential for improving the situation. I don't understand an 'all or nothing' attitude in this issue.

Fern

Simple question - would you support a ban on high capacity magazines, assault style rifles, and modifications that alter fire rates of weapons?

 

[bradly1101]

Well, as you may have guessed I'm not an expert but other countries have managed. We American's prefer to think we're better than anyone else... Are you saying we're not up to the task because we're inferior? So what's more "American" keeping our guns because we're too dumb to sort it out OR start AND succeed in diminishing the problem to manageable because we're smart and decent enough to?

I don't claim to have all the answers but I swear it on everything holy... excuse me, I mean guns... That because I, Younique do not possess all the answers does NOT mean there aren't any.

But seriously though. I love the confidence you have in me! Made my heart.... Do nothing but if I liked you at all it may have pitter-pattered a bit.

Criminals, the violently angry, and the desperately suicidal generate gun sales, so logic and America's ability to find solutions don't apply.

 

[Younigue]

Criminals, the violently angry, and the desperately suicidal generate gun sales, so logic and America's ability to find solutions don't apply.

I disagree.

 

[ch33zw1z]

Nah, his [Jesus's] "Dad" woulda been all for it... right?

OT OG, fire n brimstone, son.

 

[bradly1101]

I disagree.

I'm hopeful, but not optimistic based on the direction things have been going since the sunset of the assault weapons ban. It's so sad that they had to include an expiration date.

 

[ch33zw1z]

He used to be rather better as a troll. I don't think his heart is in it anymore.

i agree. its a defeated attitude. sad.

 

[Fenixgoon]

Simple question - would you support a ban on high capacity magazines, assault style rifles, and modifications that alter fire rates of weapons?

no, no, yes. (even though the quote wasn't directed towards me 🙂 ). i assume the latter is directed at bump stocks.

the definition of "high" is totally arbitrary, and currently a 20- or 30-round mag is standard on many rifles sold. likewise for pistols, a 15+ round magazine is common (caliber dependent, obviously). after passage of the NYC SAFE act, the state literally told people to only load 7 rounds in a 10-round mag, because no manufactures a 7-round mag. just showing how ridiculous some states get, especially when laws are passed in a rush around the wee hours of the morning.

what differentiates an assault-style rifle from a hunting one? apologies for picking a random internet meme, but there is at least some element of truth to this - mini14 vs AR15

a lot of people seem to say (and i don't mean you specifically) "we shouldn't be selling weapons of war to civilians!" yet i doubt many (any?) would bat an eye at someone wanting to own an M1 garand, despite the fact that it is semi-auto and fires a 30-06, which is far higher powered than a 556/223

in short, in my opinion, a lot of what people want to go after in terms of gun bans is totally irrational or arbitrary, and that's why i oppose it.

we'd actually be better off banning hand guns, since those are used in the majority of homicides. suicides are a tougher nut to crack.

 

[Younigue]

no, no, yes. (even though the quote wasn't directed towards me 🙂 ). i assume the latter is directed at bump stocks.

the definition of "high" is totally arbitrary, and currently a 20- or 30-round mag is standard on many rifles sold. likewise for pistols, a 15+ round magazine is common (caliber dependent, obviously). after passage of the NYC SAFE act, the state literally told people to only load 7 rounds in a 10-round mag, because no manufactures a 7-round mag. just showing how ridiculous some states get, especially when laws are passed in a rush around the wee hours of the morning.

what differentiates an assault-style rifle from a hunting one? apologies for picking a random internet meme, but there is at least some element of truth to this - mini14 vs AR15

a lot of people seem to say (and i don't mean you specifically) "we shouldn't be selling weapons of war to civilians!" yet i doubt many (any?) would bat an eye at someone wanting to own an M1 garand, despite the fact that it is semi-auto and fires a 30-06, which is far higher powered than a 556/223

in short, in my opinion, a lot of what people want to go after in terms of gun bans is totally irrational or arbitrary, and that's why i oppose it.

we'd actually be better off banning hand guns, since those are used in the majority of homicides. suicides are a tougher nut to crack.

Everything you said is stupid.

 

[vi edit]

no, no, yes. (even though the quote wasn't directed towards me 🙂 ). i assume the latter is directed at bump stocks.

the definition of "high" is totally arbitrary, and currently a 20- or 30-round mag is standard on many rifles sold. likewise for pistols, a 15+ round magazine is common (caliber dependent, obviously). after passage of the NYC SAFE act, the state literally told people to only load 7 rounds in a 10-round mag, because no manufactures a 7-round mag. just showing how ridiculous some states get, especially when laws are passed in a rush around the wee hours of the morning.

what differentiates an assault-style rifle from a hunting one? apologies for picking a random internet meme, but there is at least some element of truth to this - mini14 vs AR15

a lot of people seem to say (and i don't mean you specifically) "we shouldn't be selling weapons of war to civilians!" yet i doubt many (any?) would bat an eye at someone wanting to own an M1 garand, despite the fact that it is semi-auto and fires a 30-06, which is far higher powered than a 556/223

in short, in my opinion, a lot of what people want to go after in terms of gun bans is totally irrational or arbitrary, and that's why i oppose it.

we'd actually be better off banning hand guns, since those are used in the majority of homicides. suicides are a tougher nut to crack.

Ok, please rationalize this to me. In Illinois I can buy sparklers and snakes (those little charcoal disks you light on fire that make a foaming turd looking thing). In some counties of Kentucky I can buy bottle rockets and roman candles. In other counties in Kentucky I can buy small mortar shells that shoot a report in the air with a pretty big bang.

But in in no state can I, a joe blow on the streets go out and buy a commercial grade firework and put on my own display?

Why is that?

But I can still go out and buy a gun and mods capable of mowing down dozens of people in a matter of seconds?

That's all I'm going for. There needs to be some moderation to access. I grew up in a hunting household. In a household that had weapons for self defense. A semi-automatic assault rifle was not necessary and was nothing that my Dad or I ever considered or thought we needed. There's a degree where we go beyond anything sporting and necessary and it turns into a infatuation. That's where we start running into issues. We are enabling broken minds tools to enact mass death to innocent people.

Why aren't we asking the hard questions that we ask in almost any other areas of our lives?

 

[bradly1101]

we'd actually be better off banning hand guns, since those are used in the majority of homicides. suicides are a tougher nut to crack.

Despite statistics the average homicide doesn't get the coverage or emotional reaction of a mass shooting, giving an "assault" weapon's face to "America's gun problem." We can imagine ourselves at a concert in Vegas, in school, or at church, not so much threatened by handguns.

 

[Sheik Yerbouti]

Ok, please rationalize this to me. In Illinois I can buy sparklers and snakes (those little charcoal disks you light on fire that make a foaming turd looking thing). In some counties of Kentucky I can buy bottle rockets and roman candles. In other counties in Kentucky I can buy small mortar shells that shoot a report in the air with a pretty big bang.

But in in no state can I, a joe blow on the streets go out and buy a commercial grade firework and put on my own display?

Why is that?

But I can still go out and buy a gun and mods capable of mowing down dozens of people in a matter of seconds?

That's all I'm going for. There needs to be some moderation to access. I grew up in a hunting household. In a household that had weapons for self defense. A semi-automatic assault rifle was not necessary and was nothing that my Dad or I ever considered or thought we needed. There's a degree where we go beyond anything sporting and necessary and it turns into a infatuation. That's where we start running into issues. We are enabling broken minds tools to enact mass death to innocent people.

Why aren't we asking the hard questions that we ask in almost any other areas of our lives?

We are, well a select few are asking the hard questions, but the people who matter are getting a lot of money to look the other way. Or they're sociopaths, or both.

 

[zinfamous]

If true, how deeply do you think this will be explored and will any punishment come to those involved in the sale?

The sellers of the murder weapons will get a gold star and a plaque in the wall of honor for the NRA. No veteran should be restricted of their right to buy guns to murder people! Those guys were just doing God's work, according to the NRA.

 

[Fenixgoon]

Everything you said is stupid.

a very thoughtful response. would you care to add anything

Ok, please rationalize this to me. In Illinois I can buy sparklers and snakes (those little charcoal disks you light on fire that make a foaming turd looking thing). In some counties of Kentucky I can buy bottle rockets and roman candles. In other counties in Kentucky I can buy small mortar shells that shoot a report in the air with a pretty big bang.

But in in no state can I, a joe blow on the streets go out and buy a commercial grade firework and put on my own display?

Why is that?

But I can still go out and buy a gun and mods capable of mowing down dozens of people in a matter of seconds?

That's all I'm going for. There needs to be some moderation to access. I grew up in a hunting household. In a household that had weapons for self defense. A semi-automatic assault rifle was not necessary and was nothing that my Dad or I ever considered or thought we needed. There's a degree where we go beyond anything sporting and necessary and it turns into a infatuation. That's where we start running into issues. We are enabling broken minds tools to enact mass death to innocent people.

Why aren't we asking the hard questions that we ask in almost any other areas of our lives?

i'm not opposed to additional regulation (all for UBCs). i just don't see how banning an AR15 or equivalent is going to make us sleep tight, when someone could simply use not-an-AR15 tomorrow.

and i'm sure you're thinking of some particular distinction - what separates "semi automatic assault rifle" from "hunting rifle"?

 

[ivwshane]

a very thoughtful response. would you care to add anything



i'm not opposed to additional regulation (all for UBCs). i just don't see how banning an AR15 or equivalent is going to make us sleep tight, when someone could simply use not-an-AR15 tomorrow.

and i'm sure you're thinking of some particular distinction - what separates "semi automatic assault rifle" from "hunting rifle"?

Do you use the same logic with other laws? Do you think all laws are ineffective because they are all broken and don't stop 100% of crimes? Do you think laws are designed to stop crime or to deter people from committing crimes?

 

[Moonbeam]

Haven't read the thread but knew the minute I heard mother-in-law that it was a crime of self hate. He got disrespected and that made him feel what he feels about himself opening the floodgates to all the hate that was dumped on him as a child to make him feel that way. We have such crimes because we do not want to know we hate ourselves too, so we will never allow that truth to become common knowledge. You can go back to sleep now.

 

[Zaap]

Ok, please rationalize this to me. In Illinois I can buy sparklers and snakes (those little charcoal disks you light on fire that make a foaming turd looking thing). In some counties of Kentucky I can buy bottle rockets and roman candles. In other counties in Kentucky I can buy small mortar shells that shoot a report in the air with a pretty big bang.

But in in no state can I, a joe blow on the streets go out and buy a commercial grade firework and put on my own display?

Why is that?

Well, James Madison wrote: "The need of jubilation and a party hearty populace being critical, the right of the people to keep and bear fireworks shall not be infringed."

And he was all ready to put it in the Bill of Rights, but then that notorious spoil sport Tom Jefferson objected and had it removed. He and Madison argued that somehow, people being able to defend themselves was more important than sending exploding sparklers up in the air. Madison was more of a party animal. Jefferson never got invited to many. Go figure.

But I can still go out and buy a gun and mods capable of mowing down dozens of people in a matter of seconds?

You can buy all sorts of things capable of mowing down dozens of people in a matter of seconds. Oh I know, I know... there's that new iron clad law that now says, and I quote "B-bu-bu-buut IF that thing serves no purpose OTHER than mowing down dozens of people in the minds of those opposed to people owning it, then said thing is okay to ban, end of discussion" so this fact can't be brought up.

 

[ivwshane]

Well, James Madison wrote: "The need of jubilation and a party hearty populace being critical, the right of the people to keep and bear fireworks shall not be infringed."

And he was all ready to put it in the Bill of Rights, but then that notorious spoil sport Tom Jefferson objected and had it removed. He and Madison argued that somehow, people being able to defend themselves was more important than sending exploding sparklers up in the air. Madison was more of a party animal. Jefferson never got invited to many. Go figure.


You can buy all sorts of things capable of mowing down dozens of people in a matter of seconds. Oh I know, I know... there's that new iron clad law that now says, and I quote "B-bu-bu-buut IF that thing serves no purpose OTHER than mowing down dozens of people in the minds of those opposed to people owning it, then said thing is okay to ban, end of discussion" so this fact can't be brought up.

So what you are saying is that the viewpoint everyone had to agree on, is what made it into our constitution as opposed to what a few founding fathers wanted. Hmm...I wonder which view holds more importance and weight?

 

[Zaap]

Im saying that Thomas Paine was a total perv, and some of the stuff that guy wanted to shoehorn in there... holy shit.

 

[Bird222]

no, no, yes. (even though the quote wasn't directed towards me 🙂 ). i assume the latter is directed at bump stocks.

the definition of "high" is totally arbitrary, and currently a 20- or 30-round mag is standard on many rifles sold. likewise for pistols, a 15+ round magazine is common (caliber dependent, obviously). after passage of the NYC SAFE act, the state literally told people to only load 7 rounds in a 10-round mag, because no manufactures a 7-round mag. just showing how ridiculous some states get, especially when laws are passed in a rush around the wee hours of the morning.

what differentiates an assault-style rifle from a hunting one? apologies for picking a random internet meme, but there is at least some element of truth to this - mini14 vs AR15

a lot of people seem to say (and i don't mean you specifically) "we shouldn't be selling weapons of war to civilians!" yet i doubt many (any?) would bat an eye at someone wanting to own an M1 garand, despite the fact that it is semi-auto and fires a 30-06, which is far higher powered than a 556/223

in short, in my opinion, a lot of what people want to go after in terms of gun bans is totally irrational or arbitrary, and that's why i oppose it.

we'd actually be better off banning hand guns, since those are used in the majority of homicides. suicides are a tougher nut to crack.

They don't want to hear facts. AR-15 are scary looking who cares what their capabilities are. It would make a lot more sense to try to ban handguns but nobody is talking about that. That just lets me know it is all about emotion and not rational, objective thinking.

 

[interchange]

A couple of weeks ago at work during Safety Day, we had a presentation that can illustrate some of the points about how having access to a weapon can increase risk to you and your family.

The speaker we had, former commander of the USS Greeneville Scott Waddle, was not there to talk about gun safety. He was there to give his account of the Ehime Maru and USS Greeneville collision.

It’s a tragic story about the circumstances leading up to the Greeneville emergency surfacing under the Ehime Maru a Japanese Training ship for teen fishermen. The sun tore through the fishing vessel which sank in less than 5 minutes killing several peoples including teens.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ehime_Maru_and_USS_Greeneville_collision

The part I want to refer to was when Waddle relayed the emotional aftermath of being responsible for those deaths.

He said that while waiting for the Naval trial to determine culpability, in his shame and despair, he came very close to retrieving his weapon, shooting his wife and daughter and then committing suicide.

Needless to say I found that part fairly shocking. Suicide I could maybe understand, but taking his wife and daughter with him? That’s some seriously screwed up thinking (and probably says something about him and how he saw his family as an extension of himself instead of individuals).

Now Waddle didn’t act on his impulse, barely, by his own account. I am sure however, that before the incident he never thought he would get to be a hairs breadth away from killing himself and his family.

While most people are not going to be sub commanders who played a role in killing civilians, bad shit can happen to anyone. With 100M people owning weapons there is something screwed up happing multiple times a day to gun owners.

Some of them will not be able to control themselves as Waddle did and then you end up with someone shooting up a church to try and kill their in-laws.

If you think it’s not likely to be you - your probably right

If you think it can’t be you - your dead wrong.

I don't think that impulse is unrelatable as you believe. But I believe it can only be experienced when someone's identity is placed under extreme distress. Someone may need to act violently to justify their possession of any power whatsoever or to justify their own evilness enough to permit themselves to take their life, etc. When your internal world is so injured that you can only maintain continuity by destroying your existence entirely, taking others with you is not such a stretch. Muted versions of these impulses exist in all of us, and if you were to do psychoanalysis you might even learn to appreciate them within yourself, but I'm not sure that's the definition of health. I do think it could add to this discourse, because if you are capable of appreciating it, it might provide insight into how to address the problem.

But I do think the account had some effect on you. It seems as though you realized, although you could not relate to the precise impulse itself, you could relate to a person who had it and appreciate that such a thing could exist within you or others who are like you. That is a very powerful experience.