Break and Rest or Deload and Keep Going?

[Sid59]

What are you opinions? I've been doing SL 5x5 since December and finished by 38th workout. I'm squating 3x a week worked up to 220 successfully hitting 5x5 but it was taxing and my left quad is tired and sore. I can walk, sit, jog, so it's nothing major. In fact, 2 days full rest and it feels good until I go heavy on the squats.

Tonite, I moved to 225 and hit 5,2,3 and I listened to my legs and it said enough!

Should I take about a week off and let it rest or deload my squats and work my way back up?

 

[Tencntraze]

There have been many times where I've tried to work through times where by body was being insolent, but I've come to regret not listening more and giving it a rest. Sometimes 2 days does feel like it should be enough rest, but if you haven't had a break in a while, as it sounds like you haven't, you really should. When you come back, you may feel a touch weaker at first but within a couple workouts you'll be doing better than you had before since your CNS and the rest of your body have had a chance to fully recover.

Of course, the worst case is you try to push through it and tweak something, putting yourself out for a couple weeks of involuntary rest. If you're on the fence, weigh that one. I'm sure that many of us, myself included, have been there and cursed ourselves for not taking the break.

 

[SociallyChallenged]

Take a week off. I suggest a break every 8-12 weeks, if you're on a serious lifting program. Your central nervous system takes a lot of stress during that period and it needs time to recover (in addition to your body). In that week, work on mobility. Foam roll that quad and any other areas that bother you. Stretch for hip flexion, extension. Stretch your piriformis, etc. Go to mobilitywod.com, look up hip stretches and you'll be busy that whole week working on getting more flexible. That's what I suggest.

 

[Sid59]

The more i look at pictures and touch the area of soreness. It looks like the tensor fasciae latae. The sore spots are 2-3 inches below my hip.

I guess i'll do some longer rolls on my side.

 

[KIAman]

I followed a similar 5x5 for squat progression. I started with bar and now up to 250lbs. I swear, every muscle had their moment.

When I got to 165, it was my quads near my knees. They were so sore, it affected my walk. I didn't skip (because I was really looking to burn calories) and squated 135 until they felt better which took about a week then went right back to 165 and through normal progression.

Then when I got to 205, it was my inner thighs/hamstrings. They were so sore, walking was tough and sitting hurt. I continued squating back to 135 until they felt better which took a week then went right back to 205 and continued progression.

Finally, my big milestone moment was 225 5x5 and now it was my glutes and outer thigh turn. This time, I squated 185 until it felt better (only took 1 workout session) and continued normal progression.

When I got to 235, I took a family vacation and took a week off. When I came back, I could barely do 215 5x5 with good form, I lost that much strength.

Basically, when you're a beginner pushing relatively little weight like me, it seems unlikely that you are going to get seriously injured if you continue. I felt that working through the soreness (at a lower weight of course) helped with the healing.

Now if we were doing 500lb squats and felt a pain somewhere, I would be more concerned because with how much weight I was pushing and would DEFINATELY consider taking a break or even seeing a doctor if the pain is bad.

Edit: when I lowered my weights to continue squatting, it was not a deload. I immediately went back to the heavy weights once soreness was gone.

 

[IHateMyJob2004]

Age? I'm 35 and recovery is not the same for me as it is for a 25 year old.

I take more days off now that I am at higher weights.

 

[Zivic]

What are you opinions? I've been doing SL 5x5 since December and finished by 38th workout. I'm squating 3x a week worked up to 220 successfully hitting 5x5 but it was taxing and my left quad is tired and sore. I can walk, sit, jog, so it's nothing major. In fact, 2 days full rest and it feels good until I go heavy on the squats.

Tonite, I moved to 225 and hit 5,2,3 and I listened to my legs and it said enough!

Should I take about a week off and let it rest or deload my squats and work my way back up?

not to be a d!ck, but 225 is heavy???

I agree with socially that every 8 wks or so is good timing for a week off during heavy lifting (which I think your rep range qualifies for)... that said, unless you are a 120 lbs or 55+ yrs old, your weights aren't really 'that' heavy where I would be worrying about your central nervious system or needed the time to recover. to go further, 3x a week squats??? regardless of weight, you are doing them too often... IMHO every 7-10 days

 

[Wyndru]

to go further, 3x a week squats??? regardless of weight, you are doing them too often... IMHO every 7-10 days

The stronglifts 5x5 program is for beginners, and it is structured to have you squat 3x a week, incrementing each workout by 5lbs. I forgot the actual importance to squatting that often, but IIRC it has something to do with a hormone being released during squats (and deadlifts) that assist other muscles in the body grow quickly, allowing you to continue the progression in all of the routines.

Regarding the deloading, I've always had the "listen to my body" approach. I'm not really interested in putting up the most weight as quickly as possible, I just want to stay in shape and feel strong. If I start feeling sore I just drop down some weight for a few workouts and then progress normally.

I know stronglifts is designed for consistently progressing through weights, but I've been taking my time. At 35, I'd rather not progress too quickly and injure myself. I do take week long rests from time to time, but it's usually not planned (work/family schedule conflicts). But I do find when I come back from a break I'm able to get back on track fairly quickly.

 

[Sid59]

not to be a d!ck, but 225 is heavy???

I agree with socially that every 8 wks or so is good timing for a week off during heavy lifting (which I think your rep range qualifies for)... that said, unless you are a 120 lbs or 55+ yrs old, your weights aren't really 'that' heavy where I would be worrying about your central nervious system or needed the time to recover. to go further, 3x a week squats??? regardless of weight, you are doing them too often... IMHO every 7-10 days

Nah, don't worry about sounding like a dick but I never said 225 was heavy, I said my muscle was telling me otherwise. As stated Wyndru, my program is a beginners, introduction to lifting and strength training.
Workout A - Squats, Bench, Pendlay Rows
Workout B - Squats, Overhead Press, Deadlift

It's not science, it's not perfect but it's an easy program to follow. I could always eat more calories, get more rest and push more iron but I'm not trying to bulk. I want to find that range where I can lift and run at the same time.

 

[SociallyChallenged]

not to be a d!ck, but 225 is heavy???

I agree with socially that every 8 wks or so is good timing for a week off during heavy lifting (which I think your rep range qualifies for)... that said, unless you are a 120 lbs or 55+ yrs old, your weights aren't really 'that' heavy where I would be worrying about your central nervious system or needed the time to recover. to go further, 3x a week squats??? regardless of weight, you are doing them too often... IMHO every 7-10 days

Heavy is all relative. If you haven't lifted before, the weight that you haven't lifted is going to tax your CNS at a higher level than the previous weight. Honestly, if you haven't worked out/lifting for most of your life, compound movements can definitely tax the nervous system to a high degree.

Suggesting to squat less frequently is foolish and it spits in the face of research articles and linear programs. Lifting 3x a week definitely increases the strain on the CNS, but it allows for very quick strength and mass gains.

 

[SociallyChallenged]

Nah, don't worry about sounding like a dick but I never said 225 was heavy, I said my muscle was telling me otherwise. As stated Wyndru, my program is a beginners, introduction to lifting and strength training.
Workout A - Squats, Bench, Pendlay Rows
Workout B - Squats, Overhead Press, Deadlift

It's not science, it's not perfect but it's an easy program to follow. I could always eat more calories, get more rest and push more iron but I'm not trying to bulk. I want to find that range where I can lift and run at the same time.

Your workout is fine. Keep working hard. Linear programs work quite well so keep on chugging. Take a break prior to that though.

 

[Zivic]

Heavy is all relative. If you haven't lifted before, the weight that you haven't lifted is going to tax your CNS at a higher level than the previous weight. Honestly, if you haven't worked out/lifting for most of your life, compound movements can definitely tax the nervous system to a high degree.


Suggesting to squat less frequently is foolish and it spits in the face of research articles and linear programs. Lifting 3x a week definitely increases the strain on the CNS, but it allows for very quick strength and mass gains.

I completely agree it is all relative...

My point is I did squats yesterday. usually every friday. Not a great day, but got 405 x 6, 415 x 5, 420 x 4. It was fairly hard, maybe could have done 10 lbs more on each lift, but whatever. Now if I were doing squats mon, weds, fri NO way could I be doing 4 plates each time, probably in the 350 range. Am I better off doing the 350 workouts? or the 405+ workouts? Forget the beginner mentality... I am better off getting one GOOD workout in than 3 half @ss ones and using those other days for things like dead lifts and heavy flat bench.

 

[Zivic]

Nah, don't worry about sounding like a dick but I never said 225 was heavy, I said my muscle was telling me otherwise. As stated Wyndru, my program is a beginners, introduction to lifting and strength training.
Workout A - Squats, Bench, Pendlay Rows
Workout B - Squats, Overhead Press, Deadlift

It's not science, it's not perfect but it's an easy program to follow. I could always eat more calories, get more rest and push more iron but I'm not trying to bulk. I want to find that range where I can lift and run at the same time.

IMHO
Day 1 -> Bench
Day 2 -> Back can include deads
Day 3 -> Shoulders (can cut out if need be)
Day 4 -> Arms
Day 5 -> Legs
Day 6 -> Rest
Day 7 -> Rest

You can combine a few things to get on a 3 day a week schedule if need be. I think it is VASTLY more important to be moving the most weight you can and getting the most recovery you can, vs hitting the same muscles day after day. More weight = more muscle simple as that

edit: and the fact you are running, what I will guess is regularly, adds complexity to things. It will most likely keeping your gains "in check" try to maybe keep the days around your squat day open from running, or at least keep the intensity down. I am not a runner, nor do I pretend to be. I have tried to run and lift at the same time. My body just can't handle both. While I see other people at the gym run 5-10 miles and still get some decent lifts in.

 

[SociallyChallenged]

I completely agree it is all relative...

My point is I did squats yesterday. usually every friday. Not a great day, but got 405 x 6, 415 x 5, 420 x 4. It was fairly hard, maybe could have done 10 lbs more on each lift, but whatever. Now if I were doing squats mon, weds, fri NO way could I be doing 4 plates each time, probably in the 350 range. Am I better off doing the 350 workouts? or the 405+ workouts? Forget the beginner mentality... I am better off getting one GOOD workout in than 3 half @ss ones and using those other days for things like dead lifts and heavy flat bench.

It's good that you can do that, but linear programs in which you lift 3x5 three days a week have insanely quick gains for beginners. You are not a beginner. My squat went from 3x5x135 to 3x5x300 in less than a year squatting two to three times per week (mostly 3x). Programs like Starting Strength have massive benefits. It not necessarily due to a lot of hypertrophy, but the frequency with which you train improves your neural coordination massively. Neural coordination, IMO, is more than half of what's responsible for strength gains at a given body weight.

As an intermediate to advanced lifter, you have to change things up because you're lifting heavier. But even programs like MadCow and other's have people squatting pretty frequently. Neurals gains are just much quicker if you squat more frequently. That has been shown in research for most kinds of things. If you perform a given movement more frequently, you get better, quicker. If your muscular system can hang in there, which it usually can at lighter weights (which again, are relatively to body mass, experience with lifting, gender, etc), then you will make the quickest gains on a linear program. You're past the stage of a linear program so what you do and what the OP should do are different things. If Westside Barbell squats multiple times per week, I'm pretty sure they're doing something right 😛

 

[Zivic]

It's good that you can do that, but linear programs in which you lift 3x5 three days a week have insanely quick gains for beginners. You are not a beginner. My squat went from 3x5x135 to 3x5x300 in less than a year squatting two to three times per week (mostly 3x). Programs like Starting Strength have massive benefits. It not necessarily due to a lot of hypertrophy, but the frequency with which you train improves your neural coordination massively. Neural coordination, IMO, is more than half of what's responsible for strength gains at a given body weight.

As an intermediate to advanced lifter, you have to change things up because you're lifting heavier. But even programs like MadCow and other's have people squatting pretty frequently. Neurals gains are just much quicker if you squat more frequently. That has been shown in research for most kinds of things. If you perform a given movement more frequently, you get better, quicker. If your muscular system can hang in there, which it usually can at lighter weights (which again, are relatively to body mass, experience with lifting, gender, etc), then you will make the quickest gains on a linear program. You're past the stage of a linear program so what you do and what the OP should do are different things. If Westside Barbell squats multiple times per week, I'm pretty sure they're doing something right 😛

I agree with you for the most part.... but I think the thing that is getting me is the definition of what is a beginning lifter..

in your example you said you went from 135 squats to 300 in less than a year.. OK great. The squats you were doing at 135 were not necessarily limited by actual strength levels, but more your coordination and mental lack of confidence in the lift. So yes, I agree, at that stage in the game, you aren't harming anything by doing the lift multiple times a week. You simple are at a point where you need to familiarize yourself with the lift and get confidence in doing them. Now, say 4-5 wks into it, you have the form down, you are making progress and your weights have probably gone up to 185-225 range. Likely with nothing more becoming more comfortable with the lift. At this point, I strongly argue that you will be benefiting more from dropping the frequency (weekly volume) down and moving heavy weights and getting more rest.

I have been lifting a while now. Seen a lot of people do a lot of different programs, and have done a multiple number myself. To over simplify things, it comes down to moving the heaviest weight you can and getting proper diet and rest.

I watched my 43 yr old neighbor who has never really lifted come into the gym and train 2 times a week with a trainer friend of mine. Not sure where exactly he started, but his squats were somewhere in the 150# range and deads in the 135# range. In 8 weeks he has broken 3 plates on both lifts -> 2 days a week of training. No special diet, still hanging at the bar.

Not everyone will be able to do this, but I don't think doing squats 3 times a week would have yielded similar results. Would he have gotten stronger doing 3 squat sessions a week? Sure... would he be making the most efficient use of his training sessions doing them 3 times a week? not at all

 

[Sid59]

Great posts, love reading them. Thanks!

Yesterday, I went to the gym to work on stretches and foam roll the soreness out. Killer but needed. I also did slow body weight squats to make sure if i went below parallel, my back wasn't rounding. I've been doing high bar squats and I'll continue on that bath but with my adjusted form.

I haven't done low bar squat but today i've been working on shoulder dislocations with a resistance band and old dowel.

It's come to light that I want to be train for strength and mobility.

 

[KIAman]

...The squats you were doing at 135lbs were not necessarily limited by actual strength levels, but more your coordination and mental lack of confidence in the lift...

I'm not so sure I would agree with this part. I've never lifted in my life and just started very recently. I was in decent shape, 6' tall and bouncing between 170-180lbs and when I began to squat, 135lbs was next to impossible for me. I felt like a pansy (for lack of better term) and had to start on bar which was still difficult using correct form.

I thought it was my lack of experience and coordination so the next time I tried on the smith machine and I could still barely do 135lbs.

This was definately a strength issue because now my thighs and glutes have gotten noticebly bigger (can't fit my pants) and I warm up squats doing 135lbs and can do them without even blinking.

If it was a coordination/confidence issue, then my legs wouldn't need to grow for "only" doing 135lbs at a 180lb body weight.

And btw, OP, if you haven't bailed on a squat, do some practice bailing out. It helped my confidence tremendously learning how to bail on a squat without hurting myself.

 

[SociallyChallenged]

I agree with you for the most part.... but I think the thing that is getting me is the definition of what is a beginning lifter..

in your example you said you went from 135 squats to 300 in less than a year.. OK great. The squats you were doing at 135 were not necessarily limited by actual strength levels, but more your coordination and mental lack of confidence in the lift. So yes, I agree, at that stage in the game, you aren't harming anything by doing the lift multiple times a week. You simple are at a point where you need to familiarize yourself with the lift and get confidence in doing them. Now, say 4-5 wks into it, you have the form down, you are making progress and your weights have probably gone up to 185-225 range. Likely with nothing more becoming more comfortable with the lift. At this point, I strongly argue that you will be benefiting more from dropping the frequency (weekly volume) down and moving heavy weights and getting more rest.

I have been lifting a while now. Seen a lot of people do a lot of different programs, and have done a multiple number myself. To over simplify things, it comes down to moving the heaviest weight you can and getting proper diet and rest.

I watched my 43 yr old neighbor who has never really lifted come into the gym and train 2 times a week with a trainer friend of mine. Not sure where exactly he started, but his squats were somewhere in the 150# range and deads in the 135# range. In 8 weeks he has broken 3 plates on both lifts -> 2 days a week of training. No special diet, still hanging at the bar.

Not everyone will be able to do this, but I don't think doing squats 3 times a week would have yielded similar results. Would he have gotten stronger doing 3 squat sessions a week? Sure... would he be making the most efficient use of his training sessions doing them 3 times a week? not at all

That's not necessarily true. When I started, 135lbs was legitimately difficult. I wasn't strong enough, I wasn't coordinated enough. I hadn't learned how to squat right. That's half of what squatting multiple times per week is about - learning how to squat the best you can with good form. And I'm telling you that research doesn't support what you say, with regards to learning any technique. Frequency is key and the musculoskeletal system can handle to weights if you 1) start light initially, 2) only complete 3 sets of 5 at your goal weight. If you were doing a 10+ rep squat program, that changes a little bit, but the squat frequency is less of an issue due to the low volume in a given day.

I didn't want to get into an anecdote battle. Neurological gains are very, very important in learning a new movement, regardless of what it is. Frequency is key for neurological gains. Hence, squatting frequently is beneficial and, if you aren't feeling tired or like you're overrreaching, then your muscular system will be fine as well. It's great that you squat 400lbs, but there are guys that squat more than you who squat every single day (look at Olympic weightlifters or Dave Lipson's 365 days of squatting where he squats 400lbs+ every day for a year).

If you're in the gym 3x a week compared to 5-6x per week and you have similar gains, then I call that a more effective program. Considering Starting Strength includes upper body each day as well (a push and a pull), and you only have to do it 3x per week, you get massive overall gains with fewer bouts of gym-visits.

 

[Zivic]

That's not necessarily true. When I started, 135lbs was legitimately difficult. I wasn't strong enough, I wasn't coordinated enough. I hadn't learned how to squat right. That's half of what squatting multiple times per week is about - learning how to squat the best you can with good form. And I'm telling you that research doesn't support what you say, with regards to learning any technique. Frequency is key and the musculoskeletal system can handle to weights if you 1) start light initially, 2) only complete 3 sets of 5 at your goal weight. If you were doing a 10+ rep squat program, that changes a little bit, but the squat frequency is less of an issue due to the low volume in a given day.

And I agree with this for real first time beginners. Once the exercise is learned, it's time to up the weight and drop the frequency

I didn't want to get into an anecdote battle. Neurological gains are very, very important in learning a new movement, regardless of what it is. Frequency is key for neurological gains. Hence, squatting frequently is beneficial and, if you aren't feeling tired or like you're overrreaching, then your muscular system will be fine as well. It's great that you squat 400lbs, but there are guys that squat more than you who squat every single day (look at Olympic weightlifters or Dave Lipson's 365 days of squatting where he squats 400lbs+ every day for a year).

Good for them.. my work only allows me time to train for 4.5 months out of the year. Doubt many of those people would be at comparable strength levels as me with such a limited amount of training time

If you're in the gym 3x a week compared to 5-6x per week and you have similar gains, then I call that a more effective program. Considering Starting Strength includes upper body each day as well (a push and a pull), and you only have to do it 3x per week, you get massive overall gains with fewer bouts of gym-visits.

I choose to train in shorter intervals 5 times a week. My suggestions could easily be modified to accommodate 3 days a week.

I train according to the MAX-OT principles.

Edit: I See you have used max-ot (looked at your journal thread)... how can you have personally used it and now recommend 3x a week? I have used numerous other programs and there isn't anything that comes close.

I have been lifting this off season since about the second week in Nov.. I usually train from mid november through about this time each year. If I am lucky, I might get into April.

Using max-ot->
my last week workout (the 3 major lifts)
Bench: My bench is down a bit. have been recovering from a shoulder injury (farming accident 😉 )
- when my shoulder is 100% you can add ~45 lbs to those numbers.
330x6
340x5
350x4

Dead Lift:
440 x 5
455 x 4

Squats:
405 x 6
415 x 5
420 x 4

A quick 2 minute discussion of max-ot for those that are interested
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=svENA1Hdi64

 

[SociallyChallenged]

I choose to train in shorter intervals 5 times a week. My suggestions could easily be modified to accommodate 3 days a week.

I train according to the MAX-OT principles.

Edit: I See you have used max-ot (looked at your journal thread)... how can you have personally used it and now recommend 3x a week? I have used numerous other programs and there isn't anything that comes close.

I have been lifting this off season since about the second week in Nov.. I usually train from mid november through about this time each year. If I am lucky, I might get into April.

Using max-ot->
my last week workout (the 3 major lifts)
Bench: My bench is down a bit. have been recovering from a shoulder injury (farming accident 😉 )
- when my shoulder is 100% you can add ~45 lbs to those numbers.
330x6
340x5
350x4

Dead Lift:
440 x 5
455 x 4

Squats:
405 x 6
415 x 5
420 x 4

A quick 2 minute discussion of max-ot for those that are interested
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=svENA1Hdi64

Max-OT is a crap program for the multiple reasons. Going to failure puts an excess demand on the CNS, leading to CNS fatigue in a much shorter time than a 5x5. Secondly, training to failure doesn't promote good form. If you're training to fail every set, then you aren't going to have the best quality of movement. I've met more people who injured themselves on Max-OT than any other program I've seen. Also, keep in mind, it was the first program that I ever did. I wouldn't do it again if I knew what I know now. If you like having trouble sleeping, feeling tired all the time, stalling on lifts, poor body mechanics, form, and increased risk of injury, then endorsing Max-OT is fine. Otherwise, Starting Strength is a much more logical choice. You ride that wagon into the ground, then you move onto something like Wendler's 5/3/1 or Madcow.

 

[Zivic]

Max-OT is a crap program for the multiple reasons. Going to failure puts an excess demand on the CNS, leading to CNS fatigue in a much shorter time than a 5x5. Secondly, training to failure doesn't promote good form. If you're training to fail every set, then you aren't going to have the best quality of movement. I've met more people who injured themselves on Max-OT than any other program I've seen. Also, keep in mind, it was the first program that I ever did. I wouldn't do it again if I knew what I know now. If you like having trouble sleeping, feeling tired all the time, stalling on lifts, poor body mechanics, form, and increased risk of injury, then endorsing Max-OT is fine. Otherwise, Starting Strength is a much more logical choice. You ride that wagon into the ground, then you move onto something like Wendler's 5/3/1 or Madcow.

Max-ot doesnt incoporate lifts till failure any more than any other program... did you actuall read through it? They specify a rep range. Much like any other program does. They are very specific about not dropping below that range and not lifting till failure. The use terminoligy like "positive failure" which is not to be mistaken for what you are referencing.

Further... the program is designed around lifts that stress your body vey hard which is why the workouts are kept short and to once a week. it is also very important to follow the rest periods every 8 weeks

No other program that i have tried will net you the strength gains that max-ot will. In my year roud training days i was repping well into the four hundreds for bench press.

The only negative i have with the program is my rep range, regardless of weight has become fairly limited. This is after training with these principles for over 10 yrs now

 

[IHateMyJob2004]

not to be a d!ck, but 225 is heavy???

I agree with socially that every 8 wks or so is good timing for a week off during heavy lifting (which I think your rep range qualifies for)... that said, unless you are a 120 lbs or 55+ yrs old, your weights aren't really 'that' heavy where I would be worrying about your central nervious system or needed the time to recover. to go further, 3x a week squats??? regardless of weight, you are doing them too often... IMHO every 7-10 days

He is doing strong lifts. That is what it is. It is a novice program. It lasts 2 years typcially. Then you move on to an intermediate program which might require squats less often.

 

[IHateMyJob2004]

Interesting conversation.

I need to chime in though.

For various lifts, I have watched my form go from clueless to good at say 80 pounds. And form is good till say 100 pounds. Then all of a sudden at 105 pounds some stabilizer muscle somewhere can't keep up and my form at 105 all of a sudden sucks. The thing is, a a newbie, I would ignore this. By doing a simple program like a strong lifts by the book, you learn over time to notice your body telling you something. You start very low intnetionally in part to learn to notice the little things you are doing wrong. I know I have noticed the "oh fuck rounded back on deadlift" more than once. Damned core was not keeping up. I usually stop the lift immediately and consider it a failed set. The thing is, you need to learn to catch this stuff and not blindly march on to heavier weights.

I hope to be advanced enough to move onto Madcow or something like that by 2013. Would love to get to that point in 2012 but I don't know if it will happen.

FWIW: Feb/March sometime in 2011 I started lifting. In maybe June I realized that what I was doing was crap and I started strong lifts. So I've basically been doing SL for 9 months with a few breaks in there but for the most part it is moving along. I totally expect to be on this for atleast 6 more months. The program is intended to last about 2 years. At some point you move to 1x5 for workout weights and once you stall there it is time for something like Mdacow.

All newbies should follow Stronglifts or Starting Strength. That's all I have to say.

Oh, I run also .... I went from wanting to keel over after 90 seconds to being able to run 3 miles non stop. couch25k and SL have changed my life. Tomorrow I might try a five mile run out for the first time. Best yet is something like 3.88 miles. Now that I lift heavier though. I usually just try to run once a week in order to maintain my ability to run multiple miles. One day of running and one night of basketball for cardio. I'll admit. Running with SL at the beginning is a non issue. Once you start stalling on deadlift and squat in starting strength though, time to cut back on the running.

 

[Zivic]

He is doing strong lifts. That is what it is. It is a novice program. It lasts 2 years typcially. Then you move on to an intermediate program which might require squats less often.

2 years! NO

my only point here is, it shouldn't take any lengthy amount of time to get the form down enough to start upping the weights and lowering the frequency. DEFINITELY not 2 yrs.

As we get older, less is more (in terms of frequency and volume)... as long as the intensity and weight are there.

I have trained programs just like the 5/3/1 program he mentioned. I am highly against programs that take you down in the sub 4 rep range... and worse yet into singles. Social talks about injury; single reps are where injuries happen

 

[Zivic]

Interesting conversation.

I need to chime in though.

For various lifts, I have watched my form go from clueless to good at say 80 pounds. And form is good till say 100 pounds. Then all of a sudden at 105 pounds some stabilizer muscle somewhere can't keep up and my form at 105 all of a sudden sucks. The thing is, a a newbie, I would ignore this. By doing a simple program like a strong lifts by the book, you learn over time to notice your body telling you something. You start very low intnetionally in part to learn to notice the little things you are doing wrong. I know I have noticed the "oh fuck rounded back on deadlift" more than once. Damned core was not keeping up. I usually stop the lift immediately and consider it a failed set. The thing is, you need to learn to catch this stuff and not blindly march on to heavier weights.

I hope to be advanced enough to move onto Madcow or something like that by 2013. Would love to get to that point in 2012 but I don't know if it will happen.

FWIW: Feb/March sometime in 2011 I started lifting. In maybe June I realized that what I was doing was crap and I started strong lifts. So I've basically been doing SL for 9 months with a few breaks in there but for the most part it is moving along. I totally expect to be on this for atleast 6 more months. The program is intended to last about 2 years. At some point you move to 1x5 for workout weights and once you stall there it is time for something like Mdacow.

All newbies should follow Stronglifts or Starting Strength. That's all I have to say.

Oh, I run also .... I went from wanting to keel over after 90 seconds to being able to run 3 miles non stop. couch25k and SL have changed my life. Tomorrow I might try a five mile run out for the first time. Best yet is something like 3.88 miles. Now that I lift heavier though. I usually just try to run once a week in order to maintain my ability to run multiple miles. One day of running and one night of basketball for cardio. I'll admit. Running with SL at the beginning is a non issue. Once you start stalling on deadlift and squat in starting strength though, time to cut back on the running.

Maybe I am a genetic freak... I could walk in off the street and move more weight than almost anyone at the gym. Heck, I can go 7 months without stepping foot in a gym and squat 300+ for my workouts. Even in high school, when I was a true novice to lifting I don't remember struggling with weights in the 105 lb range.

To put things into perspective, a lot of people start lifting in high school like I did (mainly end of sophomore begging of junior yr). We did what most here are calling "intermediate" or "advanced" programs. We did bigger faster stronger. Now if we followed this 2 yr novice program like Hate points, a lot of these high school'ers would never move on, at least in their high school days.

I don't know what people's reservations are about getting a little more weight on the bar?