Brand v.s. House Brand Tires (LifeSpan)

[Zenmervolt]

I was just saying that you never used to see beater cars leaving shops with a fresh set of performance summer tires, because that would've been cost-prohibitive. But now I see an increasing use of off-brand summer tires as the bottom rung offering.

My guess is there may be some DOT or other standards at play? As in, said el-cheapo tires can't be sold as all-seasons, so they just get labeled 'summer' and unfortunately are going to end up getting sold to a consumer who doesn't know any better. I've wondered before what kind of criteria new tires have to meet, and if there is any actual testing involved.

Ahh, that makes more sense. I'm sorry that I misunderstood.

While I agree that selling summer-only tires to people without carefully explaining that they should not be used at temperatures below 50 degrees is irresponsible, I'm not sure that the availability of inexpensive tires is per se bad. The cheap summer-only tires may not perform quite up to the level of the best name-brand summer-only tires, but they're still great options for people who do track days and they definitely do better than a set of all-seasons for that purpose.

There is no DOT requirement for an "all-season" name. The "M+S" rating (generally synonymous with an "all-season" name or classification) is maintained by two independent bodies, the Rubber Manufacturers Association and the Rubber Association of Canada.

The NHTSA controls the Uniform Tire Quality Grade specifications, but these stipulate only dry traction, heat dissipation, and wear characteristics. These ratings are very outdated though and it's relatively rare for a tire to get a traction rating lower than "A."

The only DOT requirement for tires is that they contain a code on the sidewall listing their manufacturer, the batch, the factory, the mold, and the date the tire was produced.

ZV

 

[steppinthrax]

Guys, Just went ahead and put the Yokahoma AVIDS on there. Feel great. I'm surprised bad tires can cause pulling.

 

[leper84]

I'd say one more angle to look at is the actual reliability of no name vs brand name tire.

Brand names will put out some crap tires; for Bridgestone take the previously mentioned re92s or the g019 grids. But, aside from an outlier or two that can be spotted ahead of time in reviews, any other tire from Bridgestone is a damn good bet. Same goes with every other name brand.

Coming from experience, when you buy no name, you are buying absolute garbage, everytime. Not even looking at how they drive you're gonna get uneven wear at best. Talking about horrible, horrible cupping even on a new suspension; horrible belt separation issues and even blowouts. Like has been said you aren't just buying old tires with cheaper rubber, you're buying cheap design, cheap materials, cheap quality control and cheap customer satisfaction.

 

[SpatiallyAware]

And what if you bought a set of name-brand "grand touring all-season" tires and a loved one got into some terrible accident in the rain, and left you wondering if maybe those $100 better "high-performance all-season" tires from the same name brand would've saved their life?

Or what if you bought those "high-performance all-season" tires and they still got in the accident and you're left wondering if maybe spending $300 more on the ultra-super-grippy summer-only tires with the best wet traction rating ever would have saved their lives?

You see what I'm getting at here?

<snip>

ZV

I absolutely do.. But these are somewhat unrealistic arguments to the point I'm trying to make.

Logically, it doesn't make sense to have three sets of wheels to swap out based on conditions. Of course you have to find a good middle-ground between no-name knockoff tires and going overboard with swapping out multiple sets of wheels.


In my mind, the thing we're debating here is buying no name all-seasons vs brand name all-seasons. Or no name summer tires vs brand name summer tires.

And in that scenario, the real world grip/braking/wet traction is VASTLY better when you spend $1000 on tires versus $700 on tires. Remember that this is $300 over a timeframe of 4-5 years and 50k miles.


I have tried many tires, mostly summer, but some all-seasons as well... General, bridgestone re900, hankook v12, along with a bunch of the economy OE style tires. And every single time, going to a michelin suited to similar applications is VASTLY superior. Yes, some of the tires that got replaced were old or hard, but most were fresh.



My biggest beef with the overall "xyz tire is better" mindset is people are replacing very old/hard/worn out tires with fresh knock off tires and are absolutely blown away at the difference. They post on tirerack etc at how amazing the tires are, not realizing it's not an accurate comparison.

 

[IHAVEAQUESTION]

Whatever you do, don't get PRIMEWELL from Firestone. I believe it's the house brand and sells for very cheap. These will develop road noise within the first 5000 miles and make you think something is wrong with your wheel bearing or suspension.

 

[JulesMaximus]

I'd say one more angle to look at is the actual reliability of no name vs brand name tire.

Brand names will put out some crap tires; for Bridgestone take the previously mentioned re92s or the g019 grids. But, aside from an outlier or two that can be spotted ahead of time in reviews, any other tire from Bridgestone is a damn good bet. Same goes with every other name brand.

Coming from experience, when you buy no name, you are buying absolute garbage, everytime. Not even looking at how they drive you're gonna get uneven wear at best. Talking about horrible, horrible cupping even on a new suspension; horrible belt separation issues and even blowouts. Like has been said you aren't just buying old tires with cheaper rubber, you're buying cheap design, cheap materials, cheap quality control and cheap customer satisfaction.

:thumbsdown: Absolute nonsense. I've never had any experience like that with house brand tires.

 

[leper84]

:thumbsdown: Absolute nonsense. I've never had any experience like that with house brand tires.

Consider yourself lucky, at best this is what our customers end up with-

Whatever you do, don't get PRIMEWELL from Firestone. I believe it's the house brand and sells for very cheap. These will develop road noise within the first 5000 miles and make you think something is wrong with your wheel bearing or suspension.

We won't offer our customers house brand/ no name tires anymore. Its not worth pissing them off when their $300-$500 worth of cheap tires turn to garbage a year or two later. Jules I'm glad for you if you've had good luck, and there is a possibility the experience I've had is unique. I think the argument that its worth the extra $300 over 50k miles is the best I've heard in this thread.

 

[SpatiallyAware]

:thumbsdown: Absolute nonsense. I've never had any experience like that with house brand tires.

My truck had BFG made knock offs when I bought it. The thing bounced like crazy and pulled to one side... I figured ball joints, tie rod ends at least.... Hopefully not worse.

My tire guy (independent performance shop) laughed and said it's just the knock off no name tires. It didn't even need an alignment... All of the problems revolved around cheapo tires at the last 20% of their life.

I've seen firsthand a number of cars over my lifetime that had knock off chintzy tires that caused issues unrelated to the suspension. I wonder how many people are conned into "alignment problems" that are just cheapo tire issues.

 

[Zargon]

and what brand were these knock offs?

some tire guys are ignorant assholes, and have no idea what half the tire brands are, which is why I am asking

one of the dumbass service advisors at my Nissan dealers ribs me about my kumho's everytime I am there, and wants to sell me OE Michelin Destination passenger tires

they are crap, I hated them when I had them(and I swapped to On/Offroads), fine when it was dry out but slick in rain and useless in snow, which is great for a 4wd truck...

he keeps calling them generic too.

they are about my 6th set of Kumho's

he also hadn't heard of fuzions(rebranded bridgestones)



and more fuel for the fire, who was it that made the flip your SUV tire of death in the 90's?

oh yeah, one of the BIGGEST BRANDS.

 

[hanoverphist]

i bought the discount tire arizonian silver series tires (made for discount) and they have been doing well so far. a buddy that works for discount told me they are made by cooper tire, which im ok with that. ive had very good luck with coopers in the past.

 

[Zenmervolt]

In my mind, the thing we're debating here is buying no name all-seasons vs brand name all-seasons. Or no name summer tires vs brand name summer tires.

And in that scenario, the real world grip/braking/wet traction is VASTLY better when you spend $1000 on tires versus $700 on tires. Remember that this is $300 over a timeframe of 4-5 years and 50k miles.

Bullshit.

Slightly better, yes. "VASTLY"? Nope. Not a thing. Not just because of the company. Because of class within the very broad all-season category, possibly. There are many, many different classes of "all season" tires. The 40,000 mile "high performance" tires that used to be on my Volvo were all-seasons. The 80,000 mile "touring" tires that I replaced them with are also all-season tires.

This is an all-season tire. So is this. They are VASTLY different in terms of overall grip and hydroplane resistance. They are also both name-brand tires. Is the person who buys the Bridgestone Insignia SE200 instead of the Bridgestone Potenza RE970AS an idiot for choosing the tire with the lower grip? After all, they're both all-seasons, so under your logic they're the "same" class of tire.

Also, my last set of name-brand tires were around $580 installed, tax included. I don't know where you're buying $1,000 sets of tires for an everyday grocery-getter, but I hope whatever tire store is selling you on that is at least throwing in the Vaseline for free.

ZV

 

[SpatiallyAware]

Well we can agree to disagree, but that's been my experience over and over and over again. I tend to cycle through cars quite often, so I get to try a lot of the tires people and dealers put on a car they're about to sell... IE brand new POS tires.

Here's one of many, many easy to find articles outlining the dangers and differences:

http://www.wheels24.co.za/News/Tyre-test-Knock-off-v-premium-20130717

"According to Continental: The results were frankly alarming. On average, at the point where the Continental tyre had come to a complete stop, the vehicle with cheap tyres was still doing (49.9 km/h and took an extra 14m to stop.

It’s a chilling fact that a pedestrian hit at that speed only has a 27% chance of survival.

Du Plooy said: “While some low-cost brands are better than others, in general you can expect a vast difference in performance between premium, budget and cheap tyres. ""




.....And I've run both the re900-series, falken 912, hankook v12... IE 'name brand' back to back with super sports, a/s3 and mxm4... The michelins are better... in the dry, the wet, the hot and cold. It's extremely noticeable. Don't forget, we're comparing apples to apples here... IE 50k warranty all season a/s3 replacing a kuhmo 50k high performance all-season.

And yes, I fully get the point you're trying to make... That a 40k mile tire will be softer and grip better than a 80k tire (brand aside). And, if you choose to put 80k no name bricks on your wife's car... Well.. That's your personal call. But go back to the article that explains that a car with the no-name (but otherwise equivalent spec) tire is still going 30 mph when the name brand tire car is stopped... Well, to me that's worth the extra $300 or $500 from a safety-factor. There is FAR more to tire compounds than just comparing mileage warranty or even treadwear ratings...

And of course, it's not worth running 15k mile super soft pilot sport cup track tires. That's not what I'm getting at and you know it.


But, you guys trusting your family to these kiddo reviews on tirerack who claim their kuhmos are the bestest most stickiest tire around are nuts. Real-world experience has shown me over and over again that it's a waste of time to try anything other than the ideal michelin for the use of the car (mxm4, pilot sport a/s3 or super sports, LTX m/s, or pilot exalto)

 

[SpatiallyAware]

And with your $$ comment.. Most of my tire experiences have been with sports or sport-ish cars.. 245-285 widths. Almost always going from kuhmo/hankook/conti on whatever I've bought to super sports or a/s3. My performance shop tire guy charges 5% above costco and gives me free alignments.

 

[WackyDan]

OE tires are often complete crap, even from "name brand" tire companies. Bridgestone's Potenza RE92 is an infamously awful tire that comes fitted on numerous cars straight from the manufacturer. There are any number of "house brand" tires that would handily out perform the "name brand" and "factory spec" Potenza RE92 tires.

If a crap tire like the RE92 can be just fine for a manufacturer to use on hundreds of millions of cars, there's no reason to assume that the majority of drivers need the absolute best grip or water shedding, etc.

ZV

Agreed. The Goodyear Wranglers that came on my truck and the Michelins that came on my car were utter crap. They wore out fast, and in the case of the Michelins were the worse tire I've ever had on a car in the rain.

I've bought name brand since, but with an acute eye on the ratings of the tires. The last set on the old truck were Michelins and wore great. The 2nd set on the car are Continental touring tires and they have been awesome in the rain, and it looks like we'll get 50K + out of them.

I've also run house tires/no names before and never had a failure though they didn't wear great. If you are talking a run around town car and something you don't feel you need a performance tire on, then house brand can save you some coin. - Especially if you aren't keeping the car for too much longer.

 

[Zenmervolt]

And with your $$ comment.. Most of my tire experiences have been with sports or sport-ish cars.. 245-285 widths. Almost always going from kuhmo/hankook/conti on whatever I've bought to super sports or a/s3. My performance shop tire guy charges 5% above costco and gives me free alignments.

Conti? You're listing Continental AG, the world's 4th largest tire manufacturer and one that is widely recognized as having arguably the best performance tires currently available, as an "off-brand"? Really?

ZV

 

[Zenmervolt]

Here's one of many, many easy to find articles outlining the dangers and differences:

http://www.wheels24.co.za/News/Tyre-test-Knock-off-v-premium-20130717

"According to Continental: The results were frankly alarming. On average, at the point where the Continental tyre had come to a complete stop, the vehicle with cheap tyres was still doing (49.9 km/h and took an extra 14m to stop.

It&#8217;s a chilling fact that a pedestrian hit at that speed only has a 27% chance of survival.

Du Plooy said: &#8220;While some low-cost brands are better than others, in general you can expect a vast difference in performance between premium, budget and cheap tyres. ""

Did you bother to read the article you're quoting?

"Continental Tyres ran such a comparison using one of its premium tyres and a cheap tyre that had been artfully designed to appear identical."

The test was not a test of house-brand tires vs. premium brand tires. It was a test of Continental tires vs. a counterfeit tire.

There is a world of difference between an inexpensive house brand tire where there is an actual company standing behind it and a counterfeit tire where there is no way to know where the tire was made and all you really know is that it was made with the intent of defrauding consumers.

ZV

 

[Zargon]

Lolol

 

[andylawcc]

i bought a beater nissan sentra 2 years ago, it came with 3 Fisk Classic and a mismatched size korean brand. Ride quality is shit but i didn't care; and when time to change tires I went with used tires (something I used to frown upon) but they were $140 installed (195/60/14).

 

[Meghan54]

Almost always going from kuhmo/hankook/conti on whatever I've bought to super sports or a/s3.

"According to Continental:

But go back to the article that explains that a car with the no-name (but otherwise equivalent spec) tire...

First, you do understand, or maybe you don't, that the specs listed for any particular tire are assigned by that tire manufacturer, no one else. Now, supposedly, the tire is tested by the manufacturer against guidelines set up by the DOT and specs assigned from testing against said guidelines (traction, tread life, etc.), but in reality, knockoff tires can just be given whatever specs the maker decides it wants and no one will call them on it, unless and until there are failures/problems with said tire and the DOT actually does test said tire line.

Until that point, the tire maker is sort of on "Scout's Honor" about the specs assigned to a tire.

Did you bother to read the article you're quoting?

"Continental Tyres ran such a comparison using one of its premium tyres and a cheap tyre that had been artfully designed to appear identical."

The test was not a test of house-brand tires vs. premium brand tires. It was a test of Continental tires vs. a counterfeit tire.

There is a world of difference between an inexpensive house brand tire where there is an actual company standing behind it and a counterfeit tire where there is no way to know where the tire was made and all you really know is that it was made with the intent of defrauding consumers.

ZV

Obviously, he didn't ZV. Otherwise, he'd have read the second paragraph which read:

While good quality budget tyres are produced by premium manufacturers, these are less recognisable and are sold at a more affordable price.

But I guess that escaped his notice.....

What struck me as ironic is Spatially's insistance that Conti's are something to be immediately replaced (not to be trusted as a tire, essentially) yet he uses an article with research done by none other than Continental.

Real-world experience has shown me over and over again that it's a waste of time to try anything other than the ideal michelin for the use of the car (mxm4, pilot sport a/s3 or super sports, LTX m/s, or pilot exalto)

Among the lines of Michelins, you've listed the LTX M/S2's as one of the "good" tires, but probably have no experience with a direct competitor, the Continental CrossContact LX20's.

I do, having used a set as late as last year. The Conti's were used between sets of LTX M/S2's and I wouldn't have hesitated to have bought the Conti's when I bought the second set of Michelins...it came down to price as the Michelins ended up costing about $120 less for the set vs. the Conti's. What I have noticed in differences between the two were the Michelins ride a bit smoother but the Conti's had slightly better grip, esp. in the dry. Overall, a wash between the two sets of tires.

The worst thing about the Michelins is their tendency to, on grooved pavement/concrete, to "nibble" back and forth across the grooves (soem call it tramlining, I think). Very annoying and if I had to drive grooved roads consistently, which I don't, I wouldn't have bought the Michelins.

But, horrors, I've even used Firestone Firehawk Indy 500's.....and loved them. I've even owned a couple of sets of Cooper Lifeliners and had no issues with them. Granted, they went on some cheapie vehicles I had, one costing me $500 to buy, but the tires performed well for their cost.

Ulitmately, the notion that only Michelins are worthwhile purchasing in every instance, is just balderdash.

 

[SpatiallyAware]

ZV; you're right, I only skimmed the article and it isn't directly relevant. Had a very busy day, and thought it had the info I needed to make the point you already know I'm trying to make. And today is also very busy, so excuse grammar etc... I'll stop back on the weekend if I need to clarify anything.

Meghan; you're also correct, I haven't tried the conti LX20. I have tried geolander at/s (noisy, grip is not great in the dry) conti contitrac (very poor dry grip, EXTREMELY poor wet grip), and some BFG don't remember the model, one of the '4-5 stars on tirerack' and they were honestly more for offroad use even though all the kiddo reviewers said that they're great on the highway... So very loud. For broad general use, ltx m/s and 2 has been spot on perfect every time for my small truck and SUV use.

And sure, I freely admit, it's possible to bounce around between tire brands/types and get something equivalent (but not better) and save $200. Of course I could also end up with one of the tires above and end up wasting $700 or get stuck with a lesser quality tire. That's why I say I just don't risk it anymore... Particularly on cars that my loved ones drive.

And yes... For special situations (track car, snows 50% of the time, area that is super cold, whatever) there may be better choices.


Tell me.. What's a better all season performance tire than the pilot sport a/s3?

What's a better ultra high performance tire than pilot super sports?


You all do realize that these tires are literally the benchmark for quality tires, right? Almost all 'real' tire tests (IE not kiddos on tirerack swapping out bald civic tires) directly compare new tires to their michelin equivalent, and there's a reason for that...


Again... the point I'm trying to make is not that ALL other tires are junk and unsafe and will immediately put you in a ditch. It's that some known-good (and some not so known....) tire companies make tires that are varying levels of less safe than these benchmark quality tires and you really aren't saving that much money over the life of the tire by going with them.


Trust me.... I can't stand fanboys.. And I know how frustrating is to read someone who says "I only buy xyz period"... But tires are tough to return. You end up stuck with a tire for years or eat $1000. To me, I would rather pay an extra $200-$300 every 5 years and get a 100% known-good, no-risk tire. And through firsthand experience I've discovered I only get that when I buy michelins.

 

[JulesMaximus]

Again... the point I'm trying to make is not that ALL other tires are junk and unsafe and will immediately put you in a ditch. It's that some known-good (and some not so known....) tire companies make tires that are varying levels of less safe than these benchmark quality tires and you really aren't saving that much money over the life of the tire by going with them.

Been running the OEM Dunlop (SP Sport Maxx) tires on my wife's Lexus since we bought it. We get them through the dealership for free (tires for life package) and we have put over 110,000 miles on this car on 5 sets of these tires.

I have no idea how these tires are rated or how they compare to Michelins. They are perfectly safe though and we have had no issues at all with them. My only complaint is that they don't last particularly long but since we aren't paying for them I couldn't possibly care less.

 

[SpatiallyAware]

Yes, exactly my point.

So, your current tires seem fine... So you're satisfied. Great.

Now let's say you try to try some bridgestone re050s next and they absolutely blow you away in comparison... So you give them 5 stars, right?


Well, if a michelin super sport can give you even better performance in wet/dry, enough to stop your car 15ft shorter, and a 30k warranty, you would never know that the re050 is not that great of a tire.

Great compared to what you've used in the past, sure, but not that great to the guy stopping in front of you with super sports or a/s3 who had to quickly brake and you rear-ended them... Costing you $500 deductible and increased insurance rates that you could've spent on better tires.


And, you would be in here like the others screaming about how the xyz's are more than adequate and perfectly fine......

 

[JulesMaximus]

Yes, exactly my point.

So, your current tires seem fine... So you're satisfied. Great.

Now let's say you try to try some bridgestone re050s next and they absolutely blow you away in comparison... So you give them 5 stars, right?


Well, if a michelin super sport can give you even better performance in wet/dry, enough to stop your car 15ft shorter, and a 30k warranty, you would never know that the re050 is not that great of a tire.

Great compared to what you've used in the past, sure, but not that great to the guy stopping in front of you with super sports or a/s3 who had to quickly brake and you rear-ended them... Costing you $500 deductible and increased insurance rates that you could've spent on better tires.


And, you would be in here like the others screaming about how the xyz's are more than adequate and perfectly fine......

But I'm not screaming about anything because we haven't had any accidents because of these tires. And I've got news for you, if you slam into the back of someone because you couldn't stop in time it isn't because you bought the wrong tire, it is because you were following too closely. Plain and simple.

The best tire in the world won't cure stupidity or inattentiveness.

 

[Zenmervolt]

Almost all 'real' tire tests (IE not kiddos on tirerack swapping out bald civic tires) directly compare new tires to their michelin equivalent, and there's a reason for that...

I've read lots of instrumented "real" tire tests. I've never noticed this "everything is compared to Michelin tires" thing you're claiming.

Yes, the Pilot Sport A/S 3 is currently the reigning champ in the ultra-high-performance all-season category. They're also the newest entry in that category and I've seen Continental ExtremeContacts come out in first place in older tests, as well as Bridgestone's top-of-the-line all-season Potenzas. Bridgestone, Continental, Michelin (and, to a lesser extent, Goodyear) all rather continuously trade the #1 position in instrumented testing of brand new tires. The tests always include Michelin, yes, but they also always include other big brands. It's not that Michelin is the standard, it's simply that they're one of the biggest players by market share.

Of note, the Birdgestone Potenza G019 Grid beats the Michelin Pilot Exalto A/S and the Bridgestone Turanza Serenity Plus ranks higher than the Michelin Primacy MXV4 in instrumented tests of more mundane all-season tires.

And, regardless, the fact remains you're a goddamn fool if you're putting 45,000 mile warranty tires like the Pilot Sport A/S 3s on a grocery-getter Camry like the OP has.

We do hundreds of things each week that are, in absolute terms, more dangerous than buying a house-brand tire. Hell, going 5 mph over the speed limit is VASTLY more likely to cause a problem than buying, say, a "Mastercraft" brand tire (made by Cooper Tires in the US) or a Kuhmo. Ride a bicycle on the street? Also VASTLY more dangerous from a statistical standpoint.

ZV

 

[JulesMaximus]

I've read lots of instrumented "real" tire tests. I've never noticed this "everything is compared to Michelin tires" thing you're claiming.

Yes, the Pilot Sport A/S 3 is currently the reigning champ in the ultra-high-performance all-season category. They're also the newest entry in that category and I've seen Continental ExtremeContacts come out in first place in older tests, as well as Bridgestone's top-of-the-line all-season Potenzas. Bridgestone, Continental, Michelin (and, to a lesser extent, Goodyear) all rather continuously trade the #1 position in instrumented testing of brand new tires. The tests always include Michelin, yes, but they also always include other big brands. It's not that Michelin is the standard, it's simply that they're one of the biggest players by market share.

Of note, the Birdgestone Potenza G019 Grid beats the Michelin Pilot Exalto A/S and the Bridgestone Turanza Serenity Plus ranks higher than the Michelin Primacy MXV4 in instrumented tests of more mundane all-season tires.

And, regardless, the fact remains you're a goddamn fool if you're putting 45,000 mile warranty tires like the Pilot Sport A/S 3s on a grocery-getter Camry like the OP has.

We do hundreds of things each week that are, in absolute terms, more dangerous than buying a house-brand tire. Hell, going 5 mph over the speed limit is VASTLY more likely to cause a problem than buying, say, a "Mastercraft" brand tire (made by Cooper Tires in the US) or a Kuhmo. Ride a bicycle on the street? Also VASTLY more dangerous from a statistical standpoint.

ZV

:thumbsup: Couldn't agree more.