Brammo Empulse

[Silex]

www.brammo.com/empulse/

Brammo has had their Enertia for three years now. They recently unveiled plans on their follow-up electric bike, the Empulse. Able to hit 100+ mph with an average range of 100 miles. What do you guys think from both motorcycle and alternative fuels standpoint? I for one have one on pre-order and can not wait until it is released.

Articles:
http://gas2.org/2010/07/26/brammo-unveils-the-empulse-a-true-electric-sportbike/
http://green.autoblog.com/2010/07/15/brammo-announces-the-empulse-a-100-mph-naked-streetfighter-wit/
http://www.autoblog.com/2010/07/15/brammo-announces-empulse-a-100-mph-naked-electric-streetfighte/
http://hellforleathermagazine.com/2010/07/brammo-empulse-electric-parity.html
http://www.engadget.com/2010/07/15/brammo-goes-street-fighting-with-the-100mph-empulse-electric-mot/
http://www.gizmag.com/brammo-empulse-electric-motorcycle/15717/

 

[Silex]

Nobody likes electric bikes here?

 

[jlee]

I'd ride one, but not for $14k. It also wouldn't be much good for riding much of anywhere other than short trips...100mi range with no quick refill option? Unless I'm missing something..

 

[EightySix Four]

Perfect for someone like me who does 35-40 miles a day.

 

[Silex]

100 miles is good enough for the Sunday morning rides though

 

[SpatiallyAware]

I'd ride one, but not for $14k. It also wouldn't be much good for riding much of anywhere other than short trips...100mi range with no quick refill option? Unless I'm missing something..

My 1098 would barely get 100 miles if I was easy on it. I ran out around 105 once up in the mountains (unable to make it back to the gas station)

 

[Zenmervolt]

It's definitely interesting, and the technology for the motor will definitely prove useful, but I don't see batteries being the long-term solution simply because they take too long to recharge. I think that something like hydrogen fuel cells will be the eventual power source for electric motors, but that still means that the motor technology that this thing is pioneering is the right road to go down.

As far as the range, for a motorcycle 100 miles is enough for the majority of casual riders. No-one's going to be touring on it, but for a Sunday blast it's got enough range. Good on them for moving this idea forward.

ZV

 

[Zargon]

It's definitely interesting, and the technology for the motor will definitely prove useful, but I don't see batteries being the long-term solution simply because they take too long to recharge. I think that something like hydrogen fuel cells will be the eventual power source for electric motors, but that still means that the motor technology that this thing is pioneering is the right road to go down.

As far as the range, for a motorcycle 100 miles is enough for the majority of casual riders. No-one's going to be touring on it, but for a Sunday blast it's got enough range. Good on them for moving this idea forward.

ZV

I agree.

most riders only need 100 or so.

hell my sv1000 needed to fill up at 120. of course, its alot easier to fill up than an electric bike.

the empulse just costs too much for most people to buy. if I had 14K to blow on another bike , I would be unlikely to spend it on a around town commuter bike :\

or anything thats not a sprillia ducati or mv agusta

 

[Silex]

In terms of charging time, the Nissan Leaf and Mitsubishi Miev being released real soon are having these manufacturer's also plan out the energy infrastructure. Sure, it might not take several minutes to fill up like gas or hydrogen, but having a charge station with a 220v plug will allow a full charge in 2.5 hours. Many on-board BMS (battery management system) allow for a quick charge where 80% of the power is attained in 30min. Not too shabby and definitely can see people grabbing a bite to eat or carousing a book store while the time passes. These systems also manage the charge consistency and battery drain to ensure a long life full of many charge cycles. Lithion-Ion is capable of 2000-2500 cycles and the recently developed Lithium-Cobalt are similar, but have the added benefit of being denser and thus can in the same amount of volume can hold greater Kwh (kilowatt-hour) of charge. Lithium-Cobalt is a big part of the reason of how Brammo has been able to obtain the magical, and previously unreachable number for a mass produced bike, of 100mph and 100 miles of range. Bravo Brammo!

And let's not forget the the tax breaks (although this is a discussion in and of itself). A $14k Brammo Empulse 10.0 can cost as little as $7k after rebates in Oregon, California and other states depending on how well these companies push the electric initiative to their state governments. For example, current savings are 10% federal with taxes being a write off and CA offers a $1500 flat cash back for pre-approved electric bikes, Brammo being on the list of course. A 6.0 at $10k would cost $7.5k OTD in the current scenario, but who knows what the future holds come next year...

 

[LTC8K6]

Well, you won't get 100 miles if you ride it briskly, and much less if you ride it like you stole it.

Quick charging shortens battery life, too.

If it has to be subsidized heavily by the public, it's probably not a good marketable product.

 

[Zenmervolt]

having a charge station with a 220v plug will allow a full charge in 2.5 hours. Many on-board BMS (battery management system) allow for a quick charge where 80% of the power is attained in 30min. Not too shabby and definitely can see people grabbing a bite to eat or carousing a book store while the time passes.

I can't agree with you on this at all. There's no way people are going to happily wait even a half-hour, much less 2.5 hours. On top of that, there's the issue of where to fit all these cars while they're being charged. A gas station is able to handle many cars because it takes little time for any single car to fill up, and even then they start overflowing on busy days. If each car takes a half-hour, you've got a recipe for gridlock unless you're proposing that gas stations become multi-story parking garages to cope with the severely decreased throughput of each filling point.

Battery-powered electric vehicles are simply not practical if you need to recharge away from home. This bike manages, barely, to be reasonably practical because many riders don't put more than 100 miles on a bike in a day, which means they won't need to recharge anywhere but at home.

It's a great idea and if they can market it, then more power to them, but batteries are a stopgap, not a long-term solution.

ZV

 

[Silex]

Well, you won't get 100 miles if you ride it briskly, and much less if you ride it like you stole it.

Quick charging shortens battery life, too.

If it has to be subsidized heavily by the public, it's probably not a good marketable product.

True. 100 miles is the average range. Brmamo has stated it can be as little as 60 and as high as 150. "Driving it like it's stolen" and getting 60 miles to the charge is on par with ICE bikes. Quick charging might shorten battery life, but the important thing to note is batteries in this scenario tend to outlive the bike's usage. IE, 2500 recharges at 100 miles is 250k miles. Let's just say you fast charge it every time and it lowers to 1500 recharge cyles. Are you going to own a bike for 150k miles? And even if you do keep it that long, don't you think battery tech would be further advanced and much cheaper per kWh than they are now by the time you have to replace them? I believe the technology is here, but the last piece of the puzzle is to have an infrastructure in place which leads to the next concern...

I can't agree with you on this at all. There's no way people are going to happily wait even a half-hour, much less 2.5 hours. On top of that, there's the issue of where to fit all these cars while they're being charged. A gas station is able to handle many cars because it takes little time for any single car to fill up, and even then they start overflowing on busy days. If each car takes a half-hour, you've got a recipe for gridlock unless you're proposing that gas stations become multi-story parking garages to cope with the severely decreased throughput of each filling point.

Battery-powered electric vehicles are simply not practical if you need to recharge away from home. This bike manages, barely, to be reasonably practical because many riders don't put more than 100 miles on a bike in a day, which means they won't need to recharge anywhere but at home.

It's a great idea and if they can market it, then more power to them, but batteries are a stopgap, not a long-term solution.

ZV

Half hour goes by fast during lunch! Plus that's just how it is now. The sky is the limit and if more current can eventually be pushed out through a plug then low, single digit minutes will not be unheard of. It's all up to how sophisticated a BMS gets and how it handles the amperage. You make a good point though. Assuming everybody has an electric vehicle this could be a sore problem. It's all part of planning out an appropriate infrastructure. The truth of the matter is, though, that our independence from foreign oil is a combination of many types of alternative fuels: BioFuel, Ethanol (E85), CNG, Electric, Solar, Hydrogen, etc. I can see existing stations putting in a single charging station able to charge up to 10 plug-in vehicles and bikes off to the side probably next to where the air and vacuum stations usually reside. It's not too far away:

This pic was taken in front of city hall in Portland, OR.

 

[punjabiplaya]

I can't agree with you on this at all. There's no way people are going to happily wait even a half-hour, much less 2.5 hours. On top of that, there's the issue of where to fit all these cars while they're being charged. A gas station is able to handle many cars because it takes little time for any single car to fill up, and even then they start overflowing on busy days. If each car takes a half-hour, you've got a recipe for gridlock unless you're proposing that gas stations become multi-story parking garages to cope with the severely decreased throughput of each filling point.

Battery-powered electric vehicles are simply not practical if you need to recharge away from home. This bike manages, barely, to be reasonably practical because many riders don't put more than 100 miles on a bike in a day, which means they won't need to recharge anywhere but at home.

It's a great idea and if they can market it, then more power to them, but batteries are a stopgap, not a long-term solution.

ZV

Right. The only way it's going to work is to have a full infrastructure in place. Charge it at home. Drive to the office. Park, plug it in, charge it there. But by the time all these charging stations are in place, HOPEFULLY, hydrogen/fuel cell technology will have caught up and we won't have to deal with 2.5 hr charge times. Just another hose going into the fuel filler hole. Then when you get home, you plug it into your house and power the home.

 

[Zenmervolt]

Half hour goes by fast during lunch!

Unfortunately, most people don't stop for lunch every 100 miles when on a road trip. Even with a 200-300 mile range, most people don't make half-hour stops that often.

Plus that's just how it is now. The sky is the limit and if more current can eventually be pushed out through a plug then low, single digit minutes will not be unheard of.

No, the sky isn't the limit. Let's take the Tesla as an example, the battery pack has a combined amp-hour rating of just about 152 amp-hours. To charge the car in 1 hour, you need to deliver 152 amps. To charge the car in 30 minutes, you need to deliver 304 amps. To charge the car in 15 minutes, you need to deliver 608 amps. To charge in 7 minutes, you need 1216 amps. To reach parity with a gasoline car at about 3.5 minutes, you need 2432 amps. Actual use, especially in faster charges, is going to be higher still due to the amount of energy that's released in heat.

To put that into perspective, typical home service is 100-150 amps with very few homes having 200 amp service (usually homes with 200 amp service have an outbuilding and/or a homeowner who owns an arc welder).

Letting someone play with 600+ amps is incredibly dangerous and that's not even getting into how much heat is going to be generated by the battery pack that has to be safely dissipated.

It's all up to how sophisticated a BMS gets and how it handles the amperage.

There are very real physical problems that come with that amperage. It's not just setting up the software of the BMS properly.

You make a good point though. Assuming everybody has an electric vehicle this could be a sore problem. It's all part of planning out an appropriate infrastructure.

While it may change in the future, the current cost to set up an infrastructure that can handle delivering a thousand amps or so to cars at fast charging stations is going to be rather ridiculous.

Hydrogen fuel cells are currently the most promising technology we have, with bio fuels probably sticking around at high prices to serve the vintage market in the same way that lead additives are still around today as well.

Don't get me wrong, I like these bikes, I just think that batteries aren't the long-term solution.

ZV

 

[Silex]

But they sure sound awesome! Have you heard the sound they make at full song? A grounded tie fighter is the best way to describe it. Check out the Brammo Enertia TTR race bike shake-downs on Youtube and turn up those speakers. Then again, maybe I'm alone in how good it sounds, haha.

Batteries have much going for them right now. Max torque at zero rpm's and no worries about shifting (I have 2 manual cars I can do this in already). I think I'm so gung ho about it, because I consider it a poor man's Tesla Roadster. I can't exactly compare the performance specs, but $10k <<<< $110k while still doing my part and having fun on weekend rides is okay in my book.

 

[Zenmervolt]

Batteries have much going for them right now. Max torque at zero rpm's and no worries about shifting (I have 2 manual cars I can do this in already).

That's not batteries, that's electric motors. Hydrogen has the exact same benefits plus lighter weight and faster refueling.

ZV

 

[Silex]

Sure, but isn't it very expensive to maintain H2 in liquid form for both transportation and storage?

 

[Zenmervolt]

Sure, but isn't it very expensive to maintain H2 in liquid form for both transportation and storage?

Insulated tanks do incredibly well and there's interesting research in placing the hydrogen generators at or near the refueling stations to reduce or eliminate the need to store it anywhere other than in the car's tank.

I'm not saying that hydrogen is perfect right now, it's not. What I am saying is that I believe it is a more practical long-term solution than batteries which, despite impressive improvements, still suffer from drawbacks that make them impractical for many uses in the real world.

ZV

 

[LTC8K6]

If you run the bike briskly, the batteries will probably get hot. Even with temperature management. You will probably then not be allowed to quick charge them because they are too warm already. They will probably only slow charge because they are too warm.

So, you could be expecting that quick charge and a continuation of your ride, only to realize that the little computer minding the store will rightfully not allow it, to protect the batteries. So your half hour has become much longer.

It may not be as simple to ride around and recharge as the manufacturers claim.

 

[Silex]

So possibly quick charging might not be a viable solution, but I have heard of "swapout" stations being an option. This is where pre-charged batteries are exchanged for the depleted ones. This can happen as fast as the engineer who designed the holding bay allows for quick removal. And really it shouldn't cost more than the cost of the electricity to fill them in the first place assuming labor can be minimized.

 

[Zenmervolt]

So possibly quick charging might not be a viable solution, but I have heard of "swapout" stations being an option. This is where pre-charged batteries are exchanged for the depleted ones. This can happen as fast as the engineer who designed the holding bay allows for quick removal. And really it shouldn't cost more than the cost of the electricity to fill them in the first place assuming labor can be minimized.

Huge issues with standardization there; that would place massive constraints on how a vehicle could be engineered as well as require that a large tow vehicle use the same battery pack as a commuter car. You end up with either a pickup that can tow your boat only 50 miles on a pack or a Yaris that weighs 4,500 pounds because it has a battery pack large enough for an F-350.

And then there's still the space to store the battery packs.

ZV

 

[punjabiplaya]

Huge issues with standardization there; that would place massive constraints on how a vehicle could be engineered as well as require that a large tow vehicle use the same battery pack as a commuter car. You end up with either a pickup that can tow your boat only 50 miles on a pack or a Yaris that weighs 4,500 pounds because it has a battery pack large enough for an F-350.

And then there's still the space to store the battery packs.

ZV

And testing/validating used packs. Recycling used packs. The list goes one. Hydrogen now!

 

[hanoverphist]

cool idea, great for the whole going green thing.

bikes are ugly as sin.

 

[Silex]

Is it true more waste is generated to manufacture and recycle batteries than with gas over the life of a vehicle?

 

[JeffreyLebowski]

Insulated tanks do incredibly well and there's interesting research in placing the hydrogen generators at or near the refueling stations to reduce or eliminate the need to store it anywhere other than in the car's tank.

I'm not saying that hydrogen is perfect right now, it's not. What I am saying is that I believe it is a more practical long-term solution than batteries which, despite impressive improvements, still suffer from drawbacks that make them impractical for many uses in the real world.

ZV

Hydrogen though doesn't help the problem with less energy used. It takes as much energy to make the hydrogen fuel as you get out of it, thus you're just transfering the medium of energy delivery.

Moving vehicles to electric does nothing to solve our oil/gas/fossil fuel dependancy issue. It just shifts the burden somewhere else. It's a feel good thing.
We need to focus on power generation 1st.
But as far as the bike goes, does it have regenerative braking? Or perhaps an alternator like device in the wheels to help charge the battery while it runs? It couldn't charge more than intially there, but could increase range.