Brake Upgrade

[Dman877]

I've been looking into aftermarket parts for my 04 TSX. One of the things I'd like to upgrade are the brakes. Hondas have always less-than-stellar brakes and the TSX is no exception.

First, when it comes to working on cars, I'm something of a noob so please share any brake upgrade/installation know-how. I've never installed brakes but everyone tells me it's something I could do myself.

Also, if I buy two new front rotors, can I move the old front rotors to the back? Or is it not that easy...? I think the current sizes are 11.8 in front and 10.2 in back though I could be mistaken. When it comes to break feel and performance, what affects these more, the rotors or the calipers?

Finally, what should I buy for new rotors if I do? I see all these deals for 4 cross-drilled and/or slotted rotors on eBay but they're from no-name companies. Something tells me to stay away from all that for something as important as brakes. Is this a good assessment? Where else should I look?

Edit: Doh, it's early

 

[GalvanizedYankee]

It is brake.

 

[iamwiz82]

Why would you want to break an upgrade?




No you cannot swap your front rotors to the rear, you would need a new caliper amd bracket. You can replace the rotor, pads, brake lines, and fluid, though.

 

[ValValline]

Unless you are taking it to the track, save your money. You are not going to get much bang for the buck upgrading your brakes for the street.

 

[T2urtle]

get a set of pads that has more grip. like hawks HPS. get a set of china blank rotors for like 15-25$ a peice. those sloted ones and x-drilled will break on you and serve no purpose unless you race. and from what it sounds like you shouldn't be racing.

fronts are fronts and rears are rears. they are completely 2 diffrent sizes. i think 12's in the front and 9's in the rears.

 

[mwmorph]

Front rotors wont fit on the rears, the calipers wont clear the increased thickness

For a brake upgrade you'll need
New pads
New rotors
New calipers
new fluid
a friend(to bleed the system)
any hardware needed to mount everything(brackets)
Optional:
Stainless steel brake lines(improves braking feel)

Calipers: Brembo, willwood
Rotos: Brembo blanks
Pads: EBC greenstuff(you don't want too grippy pads because with too much initial bite, it becomes harder to drive smoothly and that just embarrassing when you're driving in town with a passenger, because believe me, your gf doesn't care you took 15 feet off your 60-0 distance, just why your driving sucks so much.)
Fluid: DOT3
Brake Lines: Goodridge

 

[ViviTheMage]

brakes can be picky...and expensive.

the only reason you would be upgrading the brakes would be for looks...as you dont get enough braking distance to care :/. to be honest...look for some bolt on mods if anything

granted, drilled rotors are hot

 

[thirdeye]

Pads, ss lines and fluid should be really all you need unless you NEED new rotors (ie. yours are worn).

An aftermarket rotor will not make enough of a difference over the stock rotor (assuming they're still usable) to warrant the cost of them.

 

[Dman877]

Well thanks for all the input. Guess I'll stick with what I got. I had no idea it would be so involved.

 

[RKS]

I have a Maxima and Nissan brakes suck across the whole market. I am going to get aftermarket rotors/pads but the same width/size as the OEM so I don't have to replace the calipers.

 

[shocksyde]

I just upgraded my 99 Altimas front rotors/pads to Brembo blanks and Hawk HPS. Braking performance is much improved, but now my car dives like a mofo when I brake because I haven't replaced the back shoes yet .

Also, the Hawk HPS pads shoot out MASSIVE amounts of brake dust. I have to clean my wheels every week.

 

[Demo24]

upgrade the pads to see how that improves things.

remember tires are a big portion of your braking ability. Can have some seriously awesome brakes but if your tires suck then good luck stopping.

so a good upgrade path right now would be

a)better tires and pads

b)if you still want more then find some brake kits

 

[RKS]

Originally posted by: shocksyde
I just upgraded my 99 Altimas front rotors/pads to Brembo blanks and Hawk HPS. Braking performance is much improved, but now my car dives like a mofo when I brake because I haven't replaced the back shoes yet .

Also, the Hawk HPS pads shoot out MASSIVE amounts of brake dust. I have to clean my wheels every week.

How much for the whole kit? I am thinking about going that route unless the consensus at the .org points elsewhere.

 

[jtvang125]

To shorten stopping distance, more aggresive pads that provide a better "bite" will make the most difference. Steel braided or stainless steel brake lines will help with the mushy pedal feel ofthe stock rubber lines. And unless you take your car to the track or do high speed canyon carving often stock rotors will be sufficient.

 

[shocksyde]

~$185 shipped from tirerack.com.

 

[MysticLlama]

Some good points in here, here are your steps more or less in order to keep from overspending on stuff you don't need:

1.) If the brakes go into ABS (they are locking) soon, but has long stopping distances, then you need better tires, not brakes, so those come first.

2.) If the car goes a long way before getting into ABS, you may actually need more stopping power. This can be done in a number of ways:

a.) Higher friction pads should grip faster immediately and get you to the limit quicker. Be sure to get street pads *not* race pads. Race pads may sound better, but they don't work well until they are heated up, which won't happen on the street.

b.) Bigger rotors, dual purpose, more heat capacity and more brake torque. Normally it would be calipers first, but on a Honda there are usually some cheap big rotor kits that may help a little.

c.) Calipers / Master cylinder. More clamping force = shorter distances (if the tires aren't the limiting factor). These should always be coupled with larger rotors, as they can overheat smaller ones that weren't designed for the heat they can create with the additional clamping force. It's not a good thing if you can stop real fast, but only once or twice before it starts to suck. The master cylinder is for feel, if you go way bigger on the calipers and don't upgrade the master, the pedal feel can be squishy and hard to modulate. It'll still stop well, but it sucks.

3.) Sort of separate, could come before or after 2, depending on the problem you have. If the problem is less distance after repeated stops, you're having fade, (which shouldn't happen on a street car), and at that point your fluid has been overheated, and should be replaced before doing anything else. Better fluid will resist both heat and water better, and provide a better overall feel. If it's a newer car, the fluid likely isn't too bad yet.

4.) Lines. The rubber lines on the car are probably fine. For the sake of safety, if you go to stainless, they should only be the DOT rated type, and need to be replaced every 2-3 years since they are not able to be inspected as rubber lines are. (I know a lot of people that run rubber lines on their race cars for this exact purpose)

5.) Also can come in any order, weight of the car. If you lighten the car, it'll stop faster and be easier on your brakes at the same time. (It'll also turn better and accelerate faster)

Other.) If you're having a fade issue, you can also add cooling to the brakes.

And just for info sake, I started with a car that would barely lock up the stock tires and that I was experiencing brake fade on after hard driving. After following the tips I've listed out, my current setup is:
Bridgestone Pole Position S-03 tires (very grippy)
Brembo GTP lightweight big brake kit (4 piston on all four corners, bigger rotors)
Stainless lines (only because mine were old and they came with the kit)
Motul brake fluid (about a 200 degree higher boiling point than cheap stuff)
Car is lightened by ~400# or so.

It stops *very* fast.

 

[MysticLlama]

Oh, and that cross-drilled/slotted thing is a big debate too.

Rotors are drilled for weight, not heat dissipation, that's what the interior cooling vanes are for. It can help a little in the rain though, as it's easier to push the water off of the disc face with them there.

If you look at the disc as a friction surface (which it is), you're just hurting yourself by drilling holes in a stock sized rotor, as you're taking away material for the pad to grip.

Sometimes it's also said that there is more inital bite with a drilled rotor, but I think that's debatable, and even if so, the pads much a much bigger difference on that front.

 

[Demo24]

I've heard that many drilled rotors crack. Some faster than others. Slotted I think is suppose to be alright

 

[zerocool84]

+1 for better pads.........Hawk HPS

Easy and cheap upgrade

 

[NTB]

Was going to start a new topic, but since this one is already here...

Anybody have any idea what it would cost to have the OEM brake pads on a Mazda3 replaced with ceramics? The originals on my '07 are making all sorts of dust

Nathan

 

[jagec]

Originally posted by: mwmorph

Fluid: DOT3

Might as well go DOT4...it's not like you have to change your brake fluid all that often.

 

[mwmorph]

Originally posted by: jagec

Originally posted by: mwmorph

Fluid: DOT3

Might as well go DOT4...it's not like you have to change your brake fluid all that often.

Still, more of a hassle, Dot 4 needs to be changed more often since it's boiling point falls off quicker.

DOT ratings

So, what exactly is the DOT rating telling us? More importantly, what is the DOT rating NOT telling us? A quick look at FMVSS116 ? the US Government?s Specification for brake fluids ? will tell us all we need to know?

As Carroll accurately pointed out, DOT 3 fluids are usually glycol ether based, but that is not because they are required to be. In fact, FMVSS116 makes no mention whatsoever about the chemical compounding of brake fluids ? it simply dictates the fluid physical properties. However, the brake fluid industry has by consensus decreed that glycol ether fluids are the most economical way to meet the requirements, so there you are.

These glycol ether fluids are typically a by-product of the process used to make certain paints and varnishes. By definition, DOT 3 fluids must have a minimum dry boiling point (measured with 0% water by volume) of 401F and a minimum wet boiling point (measured with 3.7% water by volume) of 284F. That?s really about all the specification says as far as the performance enthusiast is concerned.

DOT 4 fluids are also glycol ether based, but have a measure of borate esters thrown in for improved properties including increased dry and wet boiling points. A seldom talked about characteristic though is that because of this chemistry, the DOT 4 fluid will have a more stable and higher boiling point during the early portion of its life, but ironically once the fluid does actually begin to absorb water its boiling point will typically fall off more rapidly than a typical DOT 3. By FMVSS116 standards, DOT 4 fluids must have a minimum dry boiling point of 446F and a minimum wet boiling point of 311F.

Does this make DOT 4 fluids better than DOT 3 fluids? Not always. Remember, the boiling points listed are minimums and there are DOT 3 fluids out there with higher boiling points than some DOT 4 fluids. The real differentiating factor should be that if you run a DOT 4 fluid you really should change the fluid more often than if you use a DOT 3, if for no other reason than the rapid fall off in boiling point with time.

We won?t even discuss DOT 5 fluids as they are completely unacceptable to the high-performance enthusiast, but we?ll include them in the following table for completeness.
PROPERTY DOT 3 DOT 4 DOT 5
Dry BP (F)@ 0.0% H2O 401 446 509
Wet BP (F)@ 3.7% H2O 284 311 356
Chemical Composition Glycol Ether Based Glycol Ether /Borate Ester Silicone Based

As a trailing note on the DOT ratings, if your car was designed for a particular type of fluid (especially prior to the development of DOT 4 fluids), you should make every attempt to stick with that fluid! For example, if your car was delivered with DOT 3 fluid, the internal components of the system (seals, brake hoses, and fittings for example) were specifically designed and tested for compatibility with DOT 3. Because DOT 4 fluids contain a different chemical composition, the system may not necessarily react in a positive fashion to the borate esters floating around in the mix.

In other cases, just the difference in viscosity of the two different fluids may cause the seals to wear at different rates. What starts as an annoying squeak might eventually become a torn seal or worse. The examples could go on and on, but the message here is this: it?s fine to upgrade from DOT 3 fluid A to DOT 3 fluid B, but you should think twice (maybe even three times) before switching from DOT 3 fluid A to DOT 4 fluid of any sort.

That said, when dealing with modern hydraulic braking systems a numerically higher DOT rating is typically considered to be compatible with a lower DOT rating (except for DOT 5, of course). Unfortunately, this same generality just isn?t true for most older hydraulic system materials.

http://www.stoptech.com/tech_i...wp_brakefluid_1a.shtml

I do have a lingering suspicion that Honda/Acura uses Dot4 in the TSX but I'm not sure. If it came stock with dot 4, then, you're correct and using dot 4 should be recommended.