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Bowling for Columbine - K-Mart question
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Michael Moore is trying to put a sarcastic, unconventional twist on media and what we see on TV. His short-lived "Awful Truth" was unlike anything ever on TV, and so was Bowling for Columbine. People who challenge the status quo always get criticized, and for good reason - they are trying to undermine the beliefs which people hold dear. What we need to understand is that the status quo isn't "natural" - it's merely a product of society, and therefore SHOULD be challenged to keep us on our toes.
Regardless how you like it or not, admit one thing: without the entirely opposite viewpoint existing, yours has no meaning.
Regardless how you like it or not, admit one thing: without the entirely opposite viewpoint existing, yours has no meaning.
Unfortunately I used the word "educated" which has a connotation I did not intend. I was parphrasing (more like para-demolishing) a quote from Epictetus which is (again paraphrasing)
When finding himself doing wrong the uneducated man blames someone else, the partially educated man blames himself and the truly educated man blames no one and simply corrects his action.
My intention was to draw a paralell between these words of stoic philosophy and the attitude with which one must approach such obviously sensationalist works.
Is there any merit in Moore's work? Probably. Is it hard to see? Definately. Is it worth looking for? All things of real merit are.
To borrow from Epictetus again, "Only the educated man is free."
You wasted about 2 hours on a poor parody comedy wanna be type film.
I didn't see any mention on that fellow's page (Truth about Bowling for Columbine) about Heston having Alzheimer's, but I have heard that he does indeed suffer from it.
Looking at the interview (I saw the 'documentary' for free), it seemed to me even before I knew about Heston's condition that he seemed a little confused.
Anyone have more info on this?
Looking at the interview (I saw the 'documentary' for free), it seemed to me even before I knew about Heston's condition that he seemed a little confused.
Anyone have more info on this?
I would sincerely like to know whether or not the events and information conveyed in BfC are factually true or not. When I saw the movie, I took Moore's word for it. However, upon seeing numerous articles and threads, I began to question the information conveyed, because so many people said it was false. Then Moore answered back, saying that the rebuttal by his critics was really the false information, and that the information he originally presented was true afterall. Which is it?
I think I would disagree with your statements, no matter which way you put it. Just because someone like Michael Moore does something well (I enjoyed his "Roger and Me" documentary, and even enjoyed some of his failed TV show) does not mean that everything he does has merit. That is like saying that a painting of a blue circle is woth $100,000 because the artist painted something worth a lot of money before (I know, this happens all the time). After thinking about the movie today, and reading the posts to this thread (and previous ones) it seems that Michael Moore failed if his intention was to sway people towards his way of thinking in regards to gun control and violence in America. Looks like more people are skeptical of what he has to say, and I'm guessing it will hurt his future efforts. Then again, he is sitting there with an Oscar, and he did get a lot of people talking about something he created, that's more than I did last year.
I believe you still misunderstand me.
I don't believe that Michael Moore gives a flying fvck about gun violence. I don't think that was the point of the movie. I do believe it IS necessary to take an 'artists' (and I use the word loosely) previous works into account when evalutaing a given piece. This is not to say that the piece can't stand outside the oeuvre but let me not digress.
In this case Moore is demonstrating the effectiveness of media. He takes a contentious issue dresses it for consumption and even has the audacity to label it a documentary. His inteneded audience, the hip generation X,Y,Z eat it up, swallow it whole and prop it up as some sort of deeply meaningful commentary.
As a propogandist, he is virtually without equal.
Let me make it even more clear.
Moore is, I believe, knowingly leading the audience. That, above all, is the point of BFC, the gun message is nearly beside the point you see. He is just demonstrating how one can take an issue and make it marketable. Next on the list could be abortion, recidivism, prison rape. Just take an issue which has a number of sound bites, items that people can relate to and think they know about, an issue which people have already taken a side on, take that issue and make a palatable statement with it and you can leverage that into a fvcking academy award.
imported_Tomato
Diamond Member
Well said.
Nitemare
Lifer
Anyone with a modicum of intelligence could see that most of it is a lie
The retards think it is the gospel
Those with rose colored glasses think that is a satire
Those with an intelligence greater than a lobotomized hamster see it as a fat slob trying to force his agenda with lies disguised as the truth
Rewatch his acceptance speech for his "documentary" Bowling for Columbine again. The man is nothing more than a hate mongerer with an agenda
Nitemare
Lifer
What bait? He's a flaming moron that caters to the gullible hordes that occupy fringe special interest groups. If main stream media would display and call him on his blatant lies then there would be no following. However, the liberal media and Hollywood toss his salad on every occasion.
Lemme guess, you count yourself among the third group, eh? lol!
I would say there is no way to reliably 'divine' the level of one's education by their opinion of BFC. Intelligence, perhaps. Education, no. The education level among Moore lovers ranges from high school drop-outs to doctorate holders. The education level among Moore haters ranges from high school drop-outs to doctorate holders.
I agree that Bowling For Columbine can be 'viewed' as a darkly ironic satire, on many levels, it works rather well to that end. But I would dispute that Moore is sophisticated enough to have intended this. Moore is a crafty and cunning fellow, to be sure. But so are many car salesmen, evangelists, hustlers, scoundrels, quacks, and frauds alike.
Higher intelligence is often associated with accomplished deceivers and manipulators. Moore is a particularly accomplished one, beginning with "Roger and Me". But I doubt Moore is capable of producing by intent a satirical film whose manifold self-contradicting ironies would, if it were a literary work, suggest a measure of genius that Moore has never demonstrated.
If Moore did intend these manifold self-contradicting elements of 'darkly ironic satire', then Moore must be the second coming of Andy Kaufman, because Moore isn't letting anyone else "in" on his little joke. Moore travels around the country making money from speaking engagements that are attended by the very people who have swallowed hook, line, and sinker BFC's 'racism, fear, the media, and the character of America fuels gun violence' hypothesis for which Moore was given an Academy Award.
Moore consistently defends these very points of his film in interviews and has not given the slightest deference to this 'darkly ironic satire' interpretation, leaving no other reasonable conclusion than Moore doesn't believe BFC is a darkly ironic satire.
Further, BFC as a darkly ironic satire brimming with self-contradiction subverts most of the radical views and positions held by Moore, or at the least lends no support to them. Nobody intends to whack the legs out from under their own credibility.
It is true that Moore does the same thing he accuses the media of doing; playing upon fears, prejudices, and ignorance. But that doesn't mean Moore's seemingly incredible hypocrisy must have been by intent. Moore is above all a fiercely partisan fellow. This prevents Moore from seeing his deception and manipulation as deception and manipulation. And if he is aware of it, then he doesn't give a damn, because it is done for the benefit of the home team. Sorta like cheating is 'inexcusable' and 'deserves the harshest of sanctions' when it benefits the opposing team, but when it benefits the home team, its "no big deal, everyone does it, this just levels the playing field."
Bowling For Columbine as the "intentional" deeply ironic satire truly is a 'rose-colored' view that is either completely ignorant or forgiving of Moore's 10+ year history of habitual distortion and fierce partisanship.
Moore really does despise white middle-America. Moore really does see white oppression everywhere he looks. Moore really does believe that whites are responsible for every evil and malady in the world. Moore really does despise the character of America. Moore really does think Bill Clinton was a 'closet' Republican. Moore really does believe that Karl Marx and Eugene Debs were "centrist/moderates" while anyone to the right of Ralph Nader is a 'right-winger'. Moore really does believe America 'got what it had coming' by 9/11.
Either that, or Moore doesn't believe anything he has ever said, and we are to believe Moore has simply found a highly lucrative career at which he is very good while getting to see and hear his own name all the time.
I can't decide which is the more disturbing; that Moore truly believes in the views he defends and promotes, which would suggest mental illness, or that Moore simply has no conscience, also suggesting mental illness.
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