Boston RedSox fan,do you think Manny Ramirez is over rated?

[NYHoustonman]

Manny makes too much, as do most other baseball players, is a below-average fielder, and is the best hitter in the AL. That about sums it up.

 

[vrbaba]

Originally posted by: SP33Demon

Originally posted by: murphy55d
Ramirez is one of the best hitters in baseball. Yeah he is a severe liability defensively but I am quite sure his runs created more than make up for his glove. Or lack thereof. He is a future Hall of Fame player barring injury... so I wouldn't call him overrated, maybe overpaid. Of course, Boston overpays everyone just to keep them away from the evil empire, so that's not the best gauge to use.

In answer to the question, is Manny overrated? Hell no, Manny is the best overall pure/power hitter in the American League hands down (although Vlad is making a good case, Ichiro is a better pure but not power). He is the reason that Ortiz blew up the last 2 years, he got pitches to hit because of the respect opposing managers have for Manny. There's a reason why Manny led the AL in intentional walks last year and was 2nd behind Ichiro this year.

Regarding his defense, I have to disagree with above poster. Manny made a HR saving catch at Yankee stadium during their last series there, it was incredible, he lept over the left field wall without even spilling a beer that was sitting there. I've also seen him make other spectacular plays near the wall... calling him a "severe liability defensively" is an incorrect statement. He had as many errors as HIDEKI MATSUI, who is fundamentally sound. The man also only made 3 more errors in the outfield than players Jim Edmonds, Barry Bonds, Torii Hunter; only 2 more than Sheffield, yet he's now a liability? How about Carlos Beltran, he made 1 more than Manny, is he a "liability"? Please, if you're going to spew crap like "Manny's a severe liability" then you shouldn't watch baseball at all. Yes he didn't make the play in Game 1 and it cost them a run, and the second time his foot caught a drainage basin and it cost them another. But he more than made up for it with his 3 hits and 2RBI.

You're comparing manny to two centerfielders, a position that is much harder to play. The fact that a centerfielder has made less erros in center than manny has in left is testiment to how good that centerfielder is. Manny has made more errors than bonds, and we all know bonds isn't that good at defense. So in conclusion, I don't think you backed up your claim that manny isn't a defensive liability.

 

[Wahsapa]

i got to swing his louisville slugger world series edition bat when i took a tour of the factory saturday 🙂

 

[SP33Demon]

Originally posted by: vrbaba

Originally posted by: SP33Demon

Originally posted by: murphy55d
Ramirez is one of the best hitters in baseball. Yeah he is a severe liability defensively but I am quite sure his runs created more than make up for his glove. Or lack thereof. He is a future Hall of Fame player barring injury... so I wouldn't call him overrated, maybe overpaid. Of course, Boston overpays everyone just to keep them away from the evil empire, so that's not the best gauge to use.

In answer to the question, is Manny overrated? Hell no, Manny is the best overall pure/power hitter in the American League hands down (although Vlad is making a good case, Ichiro is a better pure but not power). He is the reason that Ortiz blew up the last 2 years, he got pitches to hit because of the respect opposing managers have for Manny. There's a reason why Manny led the AL in intentional walks last year and was 2nd behind Ichiro this year.

Regarding his defense, I have to disagree with above poster. Manny made a HR saving catch at Yankee stadium during their last series there, it was incredible, he lept over the left field wall without even spilling a beer that was sitting there. I've also seen him make other spectacular plays near the wall... calling him a "severe liability defensively" is an incorrect statement. He had as many errors as HIDEKI MATSUI, who is fundamentally sound. The man also only made 3 more errors in the outfield than players Jim Edmonds, Barry Bonds, Torii Hunter; only 2 more than Sheffield, yet he's now a liability? How about Carlos Beltran, he made 1 more than Manny, is he a "liability"? Please, if you're going to spew crap like "Manny's a severe liability" then you shouldn't watch baseball at all. Yes he didn't make the play in Game 1 and it cost them a run, and the second time his foot caught a drainage basin and it cost them another. But he more than made up for it with his 3 hits and 2RBI.

You're comparing manny to two centerfielders, a position that is much harder to play. The fact that a centerfielder has made less erros in center than manny has in left is testiment to how good that centerfielder is. Manny has made more errors than bonds, and we all know bonds isn't that good at defense. So in conclusion, I don't think you backed up your claim that manny isn't a defensive liability.

Matsui is a left fielder, they both made the same amount of errors. Again, does Matsui suck? Does Beltran? Not that it even matters b/c Manny hits better than both.

 

[Tremulant]

Originally posted by: Wahsapa
i got to swing his louisville slugger world series edition bat when i took a tour of the factory saturday 🙂

I have a few bats and baseballs signed by Manny, from when he was on the Indians. 🙂

 

[geecee]

As pointed out here, Manny is one of the best hitters in the game. That is probably without dispute. In other areas, notably defense and baserunning, he is average at best. I think his problem is that he doesn't always focus and his outward appearance is one where he appears lackadaisical, to the point where he doesn't seem to be trying (a la Andruw Jones). This gives people the perception that he's not playing hard, lacks intensity or doesn't give 100% or whatever. While I think this is somewhat the case (esp. the "focus" criticism), some of it is just blown out of proportion. Often to me, he seems like a guy who's just having a lot of fun playing the game (like an overgrown kid), whereas a lot of ballplayers just seem too business-like and emotionless. I know professionalism is praiseworthy but sometimes enthusiam is just really nice to see. If he could pick up a little on the intensity/focus side, without losing the childlike enthusiasm, he would probably be a better player for it.

Of course, I'm not a Sox fan, so what do I know? 😛

 

[SP33Demon]

Originally posted by: geecee
As pointed out here, Manny is one of the best hitters in the game. That is probably without dispute. In other areas, notably defense and baserunning, he is average at best. I think his problem is that he doesn't always focus and his outward appearance is one where he appears lackadaisical, to the point where he doesn't seem to be trying (a la Andruw Jones). This gives people the perception that he's not playing hard, lacks intensity or doesn't give 100% or whatever. While I think this is somewhat the case (esp. the "focus" criticism), some of it is just blown out of proportion. Often to me, he seems like a guy who's just having a lot of fun playing the game (like an overgrown kid), whereas a lot of ballplayers just seem too business-like and emotionless. I know professionalism is praiseworthy but sometimes enthusiam is just really nice to see. If he could pick up a little on the intensity/focus side, without losing the childlike enthusiasm, he would probably be a better player for it.

Of course, I'm not a Sox fan, so what do I know? 😛

Yeah he could pick up the focus 100% of the time vs 75%, but then again he wouldn't be "Manny". I think the one thing is that he loves attention from the fans, craves it actually (his new website this year www.mannyramirez.com is proof), and feeds off of their support. He loves putting on a show for his fans, and genuinely appreciates their support, like when he homered in just a regular season game and ran behind homeplate/stands near dugout and was high fiving everyone. Or when he became a citizen of the US, and came on the field waving a little US flag to show how proud he was. Or when he gets so excited in the event of a big hit, he will point to the fans and forget to run to second (like in game 1 - he wouldn't have made it anyway lol). Like you said, he is like an overgrown kid out there and guys like him are what's missing from baseball, just having fun and knowing you are one of the luckiest men alive to get paid millions to play a game. 😉

 

[dak125]

I retract my statement 🙂. Nice hit.

 

[NYHoustonman]

Bump 🙂

 

[jdiddy]

All I know is Manny earned his 23 million this year on that play throwing out Walker at the plate. The game would have been alot different tied 1-1. Its going to be a while before you can bang on Manny's defense.

 

[SP33Demon]

Originally posted by: jdiddy
All I know is Manny earned his 23 million this year on that play throwing out Walker at the plate. The game would have been alot different tied 1-1. Its going to be a while before you can bang on Manny's defense.

Yup, Manny gunned him trying to TAG from third, very impressive. And what about his laser beam homerun?

Also, how many balls did Ortiz scoop from the dirt? I think this will be the last time we hear about Boston's defense for a long time. Soon they will be playing Queen's WE ARE THE CHAMPIONS *goosebumps*

 

[geecee]

Originally posted by: SP33Demon
Yup, Manny gunned him trying to TAG from third, very impressive. And what about his laser beam homerun?

Also, how many balls did Ortiz scoop from the dirt? I think this will be the last time we hear about Boston's defense for a long time. Soon they will be playing Queen's WE ARE THE CHAMPIONS *goosebumps*

What was so great about that homer? He missed the Taco Bell target, damnit! 😉

 

[SP33Demon]

Originally posted by: geecee

Originally posted by: SP33Demon
Yup, Manny gunned him trying to TAG from third, very impressive. And what about his laser beam homerun?

Also, how many balls did Ortiz scoop from the dirt? I think this will be the last time we hear about Boston's defense for a long time. Soon they will be playing Queen's WE ARE THE CHAMPIONS *goosebumps*

What was so great about that homer? He missed the Taco Bell target, damnit! 😉

How far did he miss it by? Tito said Manny was due, and he was right.

BTW anyone think Manny will ever play for NY? He said he would like to go there someday... but then this year he said he wants to finish his career as a Red Sock, and retire as soon as his current contract is up to spend more time with his family. He said it's tough being away from them on the road, and he wants to be with his son to raise him instead of being away while he's growing up.

 

[geecee]

Originally posted by: SP33Demon
How far did he miss it by? Tito said Manny was due, and he was right.

BTW anyone think Manny will ever play for NY? He said he would like to go there someday... but then this year he said he wants to finish his career as a Red Sock, and retire as soon as his current contract is up to spend more time with his family. He said it's tough being away from them on the road, and he wants to be with his son to raise him instead of being away while he's growing up.

By A LOT! I wanted my free taco. I wanted something good to come out of this World Series if the Sox are going to win it. 😛

 

[torpid]

Originally posted by: SP33Demon

Originally posted by: jdiddy
All I know is Manny earned his 23 million this year on that play throwing out Walker at the plate. The game would have been alot different tied 1-1. Its going to be a while before you can bang on Manny's defense.

Yup, Manny gunned him trying to TAG from third, very impressive. And what about his laser beam homerun?

Also, how many balls did Ortiz scoop from the dirt? I think this will be the last time we hear about Boston's defense for a long time. Soon they will be playing Queen's WE ARE THE CHAMPIONS *goosebumps*

I disagree. I think their defense was just average yesterday. Their 3rd basemen managed to pull it together after some early trouble in the game, though. The base running of the cards was just awful, though. That kind of base running will make any defense look good. It should have been at least tied twice in the game...

The cards looked better on defense than boston yesterday...

 

[SP33Demon]

Originally posted by: torpid

Originally posted by: SP33Demon

Originally posted by: jdiddy
All I know is Manny earned his 23 million this year on that play throwing out Walker at the plate. The game would have been alot different tied 1-1. Its going to be a while before you can bang on Manny's defense.

Yup, Manny gunned him trying to TAG from third, very impressive. And what about his laser beam homerun?

Also, how many balls did Ortiz scoop from the dirt? I think this will be the last time we hear about Boston's defense for a long time. Soon they will be playing Queen's WE ARE THE CHAMPIONS *goosebumps*

I disagree. I think their defense was just average yesterday. Their 3rd basemen managed to pull it together after some early trouble in the game, though. The base running of the cards was just awful, though. That kind of base running will make any defense look good. It should have been at least tied twice in the game...

The cards looked better on defense than boston yesterday...

Yup, the Suppan's baserunning made Jack Cust of the Orioles (the guy who fell flat on his face rounding 3rd twice before homeplate, would have scored GW run) look like Rickey Henderson.

I don't see how the Cards played better D, they had their normal Rolen to Pujols w/ the scoop type plays. They didn't gun anyone out at the plate tagging from 3rd for a DP, nor did they double anyone off at third with a perfect throw. Those were the two defensive keys to the game, and Boston made them both. Mueller's knocking down of a grounder at 3rd was rightfully a hit, as was the charge play that Suppan hit. I'm confused as to when you say Mueller had "early trouble" when he didn't make any errors at all...

 

[torpid]

Originally posted by: SP33Demon

Originally posted by: torpid

I disagree. I think their defense was just average yesterday. Their 3rd basemen managed to pull it together after some early trouble in the game, though. The base running of the cards was just awful, though. That kind of base running will make any defense look good. It should have been at least tied twice in the game...

The cards looked better on defense than boston yesterday...

Yup, the Suppan's baserunning made Jack Cust of the Orioles (the guy who fell flat on his face rounding 3rd twice before homeplate, would have scored GW run) look like Rickey Henderson.

I don't see how the Cards played better D, they had their normal Rolen to Pujols w/ the scoop type plays. They didn't gun anyone out at the plate tagging from 3rd for a DP, nor did they double anyone off at third with a perfect throw. Those were the two defensive keys to the game, and Boston made them both. Mueller's knocking down of a grounder at 3rd was rightfully a hit, as was the charge play that Suppan hit. I'm confused as to when you say Mueller had "early trouble" when he didn't make any errors at all...

Well not making errors is not the best measure of whether someone has trouble or not. That may have been "rightfully" a hit, but it still was a makeable catch. Don't forget that bellhorn had willfully given up the run to Suppon without much thought, which I would consider weak defense. Their outfielder also tripped, which should have allowed a run at that point too. The runners didn't realize how much time they had.

Edmonds had a couple of nice plays again, and though they didn't tag anyone out at home, they did hold a couple of runners on their bases with quick throws. They had a trickly double play from rolen to pujols that I doubt the red sox would have pulled off.

 

[SP33Demon]

Originally posted by: torpid

Originally posted by: SP33Demon

Originally posted by: torpid

I disagree. I think their defense was just average yesterday. Their 3rd basemen managed to pull it together after some early trouble in the game, though. The base running of the cards was just awful, though. That kind of base running will make any defense look good. It should have been at least tied twice in the game...

The cards looked better on defense than boston yesterday...

Yup, the Suppan's baserunning made Jack Cust of the Orioles (the guy who fell flat on his face rounding 3rd twice before homeplate, would have scored GW run) look like Rickey Henderson.

I don't see how the Cards played better D, they had their normal Rolen to Pujols w/ the scoop type plays. They didn't gun anyone out at the plate tagging from 3rd for a DP, nor did they double anyone off at third with a perfect throw. Those were the two defensive keys to the game, and Boston made them both. Mueller's knocking down of a grounder at 3rd was rightfully a hit, as was the charge play that Suppan hit. I'm confused as to when you say Mueller had "early trouble" when he didn't make any errors at all...

Well not making errors is not the best measure of whether someone has trouble or not. That may have been "rightfully" a hit, but it still was a makeable catch. Don't forget that bellhorn had willfully given up the run to Suppon without much thought, which I would consider weak defense. Their outfielder also tripped, which should have allowed a run at that point too. The runners didn't realize how much time they had.

Edmonds had a couple of nice plays again, and though they didn't tag anyone out at home, they did hold a couple of runners on their bases with quick throws. They had a trickly double play from rolen to pujols that I doubt the red sox would have pulled off.

Well, to expect Mueller to make that play at 3rd diving on wet dirt is high expectations, and the official scorer agreed. Also, when you say the outfielder tripped, is that in reference to Trot Nixon (RF) slipping on his butt b/c the St.L groundcrew couldn't get that water off the field out there? It was like a moat, minus the castle and dragon 🙂 Also, to expect Bellhorn to gun someone out on a slow roller is a tough play for anyone, maybe Pokey Reese could have done it. I don't think Womack could have done it either.

Edmond's plays were routine flyballs. The DP was nice though. The game was won at starting pitching position, and not anywhere else.

 

[torpid]

Originally posted by: SP33Demon
Well, to expect Mueller to make that play at 3rd diving on wet dirt is high expectations, and the official scorer agreed. Also, when you say the outfielder tripped, is that in reference to Trot Nixon (RF) slipping on his butt b/c the St.L groundcrew couldn't get that water off the field out there? It was like a moat, minus the castle and dragon 🙂 Also, to expect Bellhorn to gun someone out on a slow roller is a tough play for anyone, maybe Pokey Reese could have done it. I don't think Womack could have done it either.

Edmond's plays were routine flyballs. The DP was nice though. The game was won at starting pitching position, and not anywhere else.

Are you now agreeing that the boston defense was average, and the st. louis defense was better? Or would you prefer to say that they were both average? Either way, my main point was that I think there is still plenty of reason to insult the red sox defense. I don't think one average game makes up for 2 horrible games defensively.

 

[SP33Demon]

Originally posted by: torpid

Originally posted by: SP33Demon
Well, to expect Mueller to make that play at 3rd diving on wet dirt is high expectations, and the official scorer agreed. Also, when you say the outfielder tripped, is that in reference to Trot Nixon (RF) slipping on his butt b/c the St.L groundcrew couldn't get that water off the field out there? It was like a moat, minus the castle and dragon 🙂 Also, to expect Bellhorn to gun someone out on a slow roller is a tough play for anyone, maybe Pokey Reese could have done it. I don't think Womack could have done it either.

Edmond's plays were routine flyballs. The DP was nice though. The game was won at starting pitching position, and not anywhere else.

Are you now agreeing that the boston defense was average, and the st. louis defense was better? Or would you prefer to say that they were both average? Either way, my main point was that I think there is still plenty of reason to insult the red sox defense. I don't think one average game makes up for 2 horrible games defensively.

I think both teams were good, but the difference in D was that Boston made the two big, make that huge, plays when they had to. Hence my argument that the Cards were no better than Boston, if anything Boston was better b/c they made the big plays when they needed them. Pedro did the rest. 2 horrible defensive games don't mean squat when you're winning 3-0!

 

[SP33Demon]

World Series MVP MANNY!!!!!!!

 

[Jack Ryan]

you are from medford, how are you on the red sox's nuts

 

[mpitts]

Originally posted by: KMDupont64
you are from medford, how are you on the red sox's nuts

Why do you care so much? No one had to justify to anyone why they are a fan of a particular team.

And of all teams to pick, why would someone cherry pick the Red Sox?

 

[Jack Ryan]

Originally posted by: mpitts

Originally posted by: KMDupont64
you are from medford, how are you on the red sox's nuts

Why do you care so much? No one had to justify to anyone why they are a fan of a particular team.

And of all teams to pick, why would someone cherry pick the Red Sox?

I wasn't speaking to you, nor do I care to.

 

[mpitts]

Originally posted by: KMDupont64

Originally posted by: mpitts

Originally posted by: KMDupont64
you are from medford, how are you on the red sox's nuts

Why do you care so much? No one had to justify to anyone why they are a fan of a particular team.

And of all teams to pick, why would someone cherry pick the Red Sox?

I wasn't speaking to you, nor do I care to.

Last time I checked, this is a public forum. You are "speaking" with everyone. If you don't like that, then take it to PM.