Bonfire of the Pieties

jlmadyson

Platinum Member
Aug 13, 2004
2,201
0
0
Text

"The Muslim Fury," one newspaper headline screamed. "The Rage of Islam Sweeps Europe," said another. "The clash of civilizations is coming," warned one commentator. All this refers to the row provoked by the publication of cartoons of the prophet Muhammad in a Danish newspaper four months ago. Since then a number of demonstrations have been held, mostly--though not exclusively--in the West, and Scandinavian embassies and consulates have been besieged.

But how representative of Islam are all those demonstrators? The "rage machine" was set in motion when the Muslim Brotherhood--a political, not a religious, organization--called on sympathizers in the Middle East and Europe to take the field. A fatwa was issued by Yussuf al-Qaradawi, a Brotherhood sheikh with his own program on al-Jazeera. Not to be left behind, the Brotherhood's rivals, Hizb al-Tahrir al-Islami (Islamic Liberation Party) and the Movement of the Exiles (Ghuraba), joined the fray. Believing that there might be something in it for themselves, the Syrian Baathist leaders abandoned their party's 60-year-old secular pretensions and organized attacks on the Danish and Norwegian embassies in Damascus and Beirut.

The Muslim Brotherhood's position, put by one of its younger militants, Tariq Ramadan--who is, strangely enough, also an adviser to the British home secretary--can be summed up as follows: It is against Islamic principles to represent by imagery not only Muhammad but all the prophets of Islam; and the Muslim world is not used to laughing at religion. Both claims, however, are false.

The claim that the ban on depicting Muhammad and other prophets is an absolute principle of Islam is also refuted by history. Many portraits of Muhammad have been drawn by Muslim artists, often commissioned by Muslim rulers. There is no space here to provide an exhaustive list, but these are some of the most famous:

A miniature by Sultan Muhammad-Nur Bokharai, showing Muhammad riding Buraq, a horse with the face of a beautiful woman, on his way to Jerusalem for his M'eraj or nocturnal journey to Heavens (16th century); a painting showing Archangel Gabriel guiding Muhammad into Medina, the prophet's capital after he fled from Mecca (16th century); a portrait of Muhammad, his face covered with a mask, on a pulpit in Medina (16th century); an Isfahan miniature depicting the prophet with his favorite kitten, Hurairah (17th century); Kamaleddin Behzad's miniature showing Muhammad contemplating a rose produced by a drop of sweat that fell from his face (19th century); a painting, "Massacre of the Family of the Prophet," showing Muhammad watching as his grandson Hussain is put to death by the Umayyads in Karbala (19th century); a painting showing Muhammad and seven of his first followers (18th century); and Kamal ul-Mulk's portrait of Muhammad showing the prophet holding the Quran in one hand while with the index finger of the other hand he points to the Oneness of God (19th century).

Some of these can be seen in museums within the Muslim world, including the Topkapi in Istanbul, and in Bokhara and Samarkand, Uzbekistan, and Haroun-Walat, Iran (a suburb of Isfahan). Visitors to other museums, including some in Europe, would find miniatures and book illuminations depicting Muhammad, at times wearing his Meccan burqa (cover) or his Medinan niqab (mask). There have been few statues of Muhammad, although several Iranian and Arab contemporary sculptors have produced busts of the prophet. One statue of Muhammad can be seen at the building of the U.S. Supreme Court, where the prophet is honored as one of the great "lawgivers" of mankind.

There has been other imagery: the Janissaries--the elite of the Ottoman army--carried a medallion stamped with the prophet's head (sabz qaba). Their Persian Qizilbash rivals had their own icon, depicting the head of Ali, the prophet's son-in-law and the first Imam of Shiism. As for images of other prophets, they run into millions. Perhaps the most popular is Joseph, who is presented by the Quran as the most beautiful human being created by God.

Now to the second claim, that the Muslim world is not used to laughing at religion. That is true if we restrict the Muslim world to the Brotherhood and its siblings in the Salafist movement, Hamas, Islamic Jihad and al Qaeda. But these are all political organizations masquerading as religious ones. They are not the sole representatives of Islam, just as the Nazi Party was not the sole representative of German culture. Their attempt at portraying Islam as a sullen culture that lacks a sense of humor is part of the same discourse that claims "suicide martyrdom" as the highest goal for all true believers.

The truth is that Islam has always had a sense of humor and has never called for chopping heads as the answer to satirists. Muhammad himself pardoned a famous Meccan poet who had lampooned him for more than a decade. Both Arabic and Persian literature, the two great literatures of Islam, are full of examples of "laughing at religion," at times to the point of irreverence. Again, offering an exhaustive list is not possible. But those familiar with Islam's literature know of Ubaid Zakani's "Mush va Gorbeh" (Mouse and Cat), a match for Rabelais when it comes to mocking religion. Sa'adi's eloquent soliloquy on behalf of Satan mocks the "dry pious ones." And Attar portrays a hypocritical sheikh who, having fallen into the Tigris, is choked by his enormous beard. Islamic satire reaches its heights in Rumi, where a shepherd conspires with God to pull a stunt on Moses; all three end up having a good laugh.

Islamic ethics is based on "limits and proportions," which means that the answer to an offensive cartoon is a cartoon, not the burning of embassies or the kidnapping of people designated as the enemy. Islam rejects guilt by association. Just as Muslims should not blame all Westerners for the poor taste of a cartoonist who wanted to be offensive, those horrified by the spectacle of rent-a-mob sackings of embassies in the name of Islam should not blame all Muslims for what is an outburst of fascist energy.

I believe this article puts into context nicely the historical aspects relating to images of Muhammed as well as jokes about religion. This article pretty much reinforces the fact that the people responsible for this calling are certainly extremist within the Islamic world, but more importantly they have rejected their own religion in many ways due to the historical and fundamental aspects mentioned by the author.
 

fjord

Senior member
Feb 18, 2004
667
0
0
Is it OK to point-out that God doesn't exist, and that all organizations based on devinity are irrational?
 

piasabird

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
17,168
60
91
There have been societies in America that have punished people for owning statues or images like a crucifix; they considered it idol wroship. I did not see the thing about praying to a statue or bowing to the virgin mary, but I never killed a catholic for it. I can not respect people who kill people because they are different than them. Life should be worth more than that. People can learn from each other. Societies that try to control everyone and every aspect of people's life are called anarchists. Sadam tried to kill anyone that spoke out against him or against his government. I did not really agree with starting the Iraq war, and I can not see how we can do any good for any muslim society as long as they allow themselves to be led by people like Sadam.

People have to want to be free enough to die for it.
 

OrganizedChaos

Diamond Member
Apr 21, 2002
4,524
0
0
i suggest we start building honeypot embasies filled with explosives. then whenever one of these morons decides he wants to burn something down let him try it.

angry mob: death to *reads sign out front*.. Dumbassastan!!
angry mob: *thows molotov cocktails*
building: *kaboom*
angry mob:..................
 

ntdz

Diamond Member
Aug 5, 2004
6,989
0
0
So it's not ok for other people to make fun of Islam, but they can make fun of Judaism all they want? What a bunch of hypocrites.
 

Forsythe

Platinum Member
May 2, 2004
2,825
0
0
Originally posted by: ntdz
So it's not ok for other people to make fun of Islam, but they can make fun of Judaism all they want? What a bunch of hypocrites.

That's what it says in the Quran, so they don't stand it.
Maybe if it said that in the old testament jews would get pissed off.

I'm not defending, i'm explaining.
 

DaveSimmons

Elite Member
Aug 12, 2001
40,730
670
126
Originally posted by: fjord
Is it OK to point-out that God doesn't exist, and that all organizations based on devinity are irrational?
Since you can't prove either point, your post is just irrational flamebait.
 

Forsythe

Platinum Member
May 2, 2004
2,825
0
0
Originally posted by: DaveSimmons
Originally posted by: fjord
Is it OK to point-out that God doesn't exist, and that all organizations based on devinity are irrational?
Since you can't prove either point, your post is just irrational flamebait.

Nah, he's stating fact.
 

DaveSimmons

Elite Member
Aug 12, 2001
40,730
670
126
Originally posted by: Forsythe
Originally posted by: DaveSimmons
Originally posted by: fjord
Is it OK to point-out that God doesn't exist, and that all organizations based on devinity are irrational?
Since you can't prove either point, your post is just irrational flamebait.
Nah, he's stating fact.
Nope, just an opinion you happen to agree with.

I don't have faith in god(s) myself, but there is nothing in science that can do more than make him/them unecessary, which is entirely different from disproving his/their existence.
 

ntdz

Diamond Member
Aug 5, 2004
6,989
0
0
Originally posted by: Forsythe
Originally posted by: ntdz
So it's not ok for other people to make fun of Islam, but they can make fun of Judaism all they want? What a bunch of hypocrites.

That's what it says in the Quran, so they don't stand it.
Maybe if it said that in the old testament jews would get pissed off.

I'm not defending, i'm explaining.

I'm just using the Jews as an example...I'm just saying they believe it's not right to make fun of their religion, so in retaliation they make fun of another religion. Isn't there a contradiction there?
 

mOeeOm

Platinum Member
Dec 27, 2004
2,588
0
0
Originally posted by: ntdz
So it's not ok for other people to make fun of Islam, but they can make fun of Judaism all they want? What a bunch of hypocrites.

No, its not ok.
 

mOeeOm

Platinum Member
Dec 27, 2004
2,588
0
0
Originally posted by: Forsythe
Originally posted by: ntdz
So it's not ok for other people to make fun of Islam, but they can make fun of Judaism all they want? What a bunch of hypocrites.

That's what it says in the Quran, so they don't stand it.
Maybe if it said that in the old testament jews would get pissed off.

I'm not defending, i'm explaining.

Care to show where in the Quran does it say you can make fun of judaism, but not islam? Or were you just expressing your hate as fact?
 

ntdz

Diamond Member
Aug 5, 2004
6,989
0
0
Originally posted by: mOeeOm
Originally posted by: Forsythe
Originally posted by: ntdz
So it's not ok for other people to make fun of Islam, but they can make fun of Judaism all they want? What a bunch of hypocrites.

That's what it says in the Quran, so they don't stand it.
Maybe if it said that in the old testament jews would get pissed off.

I'm not defending, i'm explaining.

Care to show where in the Quran does it say you can make fun of judaism, but not islam? Or were you just expressing your hate as fact?

That's exactly my point, thanks for supporting my statement.
 

Aimster

Lifer
Jan 5, 2003
16,129
2
0
Islam is a peaceful religion

It's a slave religion, but peaceful.

Many people in the Muslim world don't understand the meanings of the Quran.

The Muslim world is not exactly an educated place..corrupt and lack of education

There is no "evil" religion. The purpose of religion is to keep mankind stable.

Religions are all BS (yes they are). Without religion worlds/socities wouldn't be able to exist. People need something/someone to believe in.

When you attack all that they have (in this case it is Islam, they have nothing else). you are attacking everything they know.

Wonder why this happens in the Muslim world? The Muslim world is poor. Like I said Islam is a slave religion. People devote themselves to the religion and nothing else. Being poor is not a problem as long as you have Islam in your life.

They don't have the luxuries of the west.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,801
6,775
126
Originally posted by: Aimster
Islam is a peaceful religion

It's a slave religion, but peaceful.

Many people in the Muslim world don't understand the meanings of the Quran.

The Muslim world is not exactly an educated place..corrupt and lack of education

There is no "evil" religion. The purpose of religion is to keep mankind stable.

Religions are all BS (yes they are). Without religion worlds/socities wouldn't be able to exist. People need something/someone to believe in.

When you attack all that they have (in this case it is Islam, they have nothing else). you are attacking everything they know.

Wonder why this happens in the Muslim world? The Muslim world is poor. Like I said Islam is a slave religion. People devote themselves to the religion and nothing else. Being poor is not a problem as long as you have Islam in your life.

They don't have the luxuries of the west.

It is sad to be so preposterously full of yourself that you begin to believe your own illusions.
 

Aimster

Lifer
Jan 5, 2003
16,129
2
0
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Originally posted by: Aimster
Islam is a peaceful religion

It's a slave religion, but peaceful.

Many people in the Muslim world don't understand the meanings of the Quran.

The Muslim world is not exactly an educated place..corrupt and lack of education

There is no "evil" religion. The purpose of religion is to keep mankind stable.

Religions are all BS (yes they are). Without religion worlds/socities wouldn't be able to exist. People need something/someone to believe in.

When you attack all that they have (in this case it is Islam, they have nothing else). you are attacking everything they know.

Wonder why this happens in the Muslim world? The Muslim world is poor. Like I said Islam is a slave religion. People devote themselves to the religion and nothing else. Being poor is not a problem as long as you have Islam in your life.

They don't have the luxuries of the west.

It is sad to be so preposterously full of yourself that you begin to believe your own illusions.

I'm always right

You should listen to everything I say.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,801
6,775
126
Originally posted by: fjord
Is it OK to point-out that God doesn't exist, and that all organizations based on devinity are irrational?

Sure, please provide a source for proof of this so far mere conjecture. I will be curious to know how you will disprove the existence of God to those who have extinguished the barriers that separate them form Him. It wouldn't be that different from me telling you you're not you but a lot less accurate. :D

And no, of course you don't understand.
 

arsbanned

Banned
Dec 12, 2003
4,853
0
0
Originally posted by: fjord
Is it OK to point-out that God doesn't exist, and that all organizations based on devinity are irrational?

Yes. :thumbsup: Without that, we wouldn't be IN this situation.

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Originally posted by: Aimster
Islam is a peaceful religion

It's a slave religion, but peaceful.

Many people in the Muslim world don't understand the meanings of the Quran.

The Muslim world is not exactly an educated place..corrupt and lack of education

There is no "evil" religion. The purpose of religion is to keep mankind stable.

Religions are all BS (yes they are). Without religion worlds/socities wouldn't be able to exist. People need something/someone to believe in.

When you attack all that they have (in this case it is Islam, they have nothing else). you are attacking everything they know.

Wonder why this happens in the Muslim world? The Muslim world is poor. Like I said Islam is a slave religion. People devote themselves to the religion and nothing else. Being poor is not a problem as long as you have Islam in your life.

They don't have the luxuries of the west.

It is sad to be so preposterously full of yourself that you begin to believe your own illusions.

Yeah, you need to put it in poetic form, like moonbeam does. THEN it will be acceptable.
 

Forsythe

Platinum Member
May 2, 2004
2,825
0
0
Originally posted by: ntdz
Originally posted by: mOeeOm
Originally posted by: Forsythe
Originally posted by: ntdz
So it's not ok for other people to make fun of Islam, but they can make fun of Judaism all they want? What a bunch of hypocrites.

That's what it says in the Quran, so they don't stand it.
Maybe if it said that in the old testament jews would get pissed off.

I'm not defending, i'm explaining.

Care to show where in the Quran does it say you can make fun of judaism, but not islam? Or were you just expressing your hate as fact?

That's exactly my point, thanks for supporting my statement.

Hold your horses, i'm saying that they're pissed, because someone is making fun of their religion, which is understandable, since they're still living in the 1500s.
Ofcourse they can make fun of Judaism, as they don't agree with it.
Besides, the quran says all jews must be killed, so hey, it's not really a crime to make fun of judaism.
 

Forsythe

Platinum Member
May 2, 2004
2,825
0
0
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Originally posted by: Aimster
Islam is a peaceful religion

It's a slave religion, but peaceful.

Many people in the Muslim world don't understand the meanings of the Quran.

The Muslim world is not exactly an educated place..corrupt and lack of education

There is no "evil" religion. The purpose of religion is to keep mankind stable.

Religions are all BS (yes they are). Without religion worlds/socities wouldn't be able to exist. People need something/someone to believe in.

When you attack all that they have (in this case it is Islam, they have nothing else). you are attacking everything they know.

Wonder why this happens in the Muslim world? The Muslim world is poor. Like I said Islam is a slave religion. People devote themselves to the religion and nothing else. Being poor is not a problem as long as you have Islam in your life.

They don't have the luxuries of the west.

It is sad to be so preposterously full of yourself that you begin to believe your own illusions.

I don't see why he's "full of himselves", i think it makes perfect sence and that he is correct.
 

kage69

Lifer
Jul 17, 2003
31,492
47,943
136
As a citizen of a country that experiences riots over sports victories, I feel odd casting criticism at a group getting violent due to their religious sensibilities being offended, however hypocritical they may be.

There are more important things going on that should be in the international limelight, though I guess they don't sound as good on talk-radio hmmm?
 

jlmadyson

Platinum Member
Aug 13, 2004
2,201
0
0
Originally posted by: kage69
As a citizen of a country that experiences riots over sports victories, I feel odd casting criticism at a group getting violent due to their religious sensibilities being offended, however hypocritical they may be.

There are more important things going on that should be in the international limelight, though I guess they don't sound as good on talk-radio hmmm?

I certainly don't feel odd about it when we see what has occurred around the World and the fact that as the article specifically points out there is nothing in the religion itself that calls for death, violence, burnings and rioting over these cartoons. I think it is one thing to say oh well, I see these types of things happen all the time at sporting events, but yet that really doesn?t provide any amount of justification either.
 

Kibbo86

Senior member
Oct 9, 2005
347
0
0
Originally posted by: ntdz
Originally posted by: mOeeOm
Originally posted by: Forsythe
Originally posted by: ntdz
So it's not ok for other people to make fun of Islam, but they can make fun of Judaism all they want? What a bunch of hypocrites.

That's what it says in the Quran, so they don't stand it.
Maybe if it said that in the old testament jews would get pissed off.

I'm not defending, i'm explaining.

Care to show where in the Quran does it say you can make fun of judaism, but not islam? Or were you just expressing your hate as fact?

That's exactly my point, thanks for supporting my statement.

Can you cite where you've seen muslims making fun of Moses, Abraham or Yaweh?
 

fjord

Senior member
Feb 18, 2004
667
0
0
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Originally posted by: fjord
Is it OK to point-out that God doesn't exist, and that all organizations based on devinity are irrational?

Sure, please provide a source for proof of this so far mere conjecture. I will be curious to know how you will disprove the existence of God to those who have extinguished the barriers that separate them form Him. It wouldn't be that different from me telling you you're not you but a lot less accurate. :D

And no, of course you don't understand.

I don't have to dissprove the existance of God. Asking me to do so, is the typical and usual obfuscation de rigeur of those throwing smoke-screens.

It is those that either claim, or profess, or invoke a God that need to prove said existance.

I am not the one claiming a whole story based on any omniscient beings. The burden of proof does not fall on me.

I am simply stating the fact that there is no evidence (note: evidence--I'm not even going to the level of proof) that such a being or force or whatever exists.


There is no objective evidence that God exists (God-- meaning a creator/creative force). This is so far, incontrovertible. No objective evidence at all. Never has been--so far.

I don't state this to offend anyone--but clearly any argument that hinges its premise on deity--is 100% irrational.

There is nothing incorrect about the statement that all religions based on an invocation of a devine being are fundamentaly irrational.