Boeing machinists reject contract 75-25%, vote to go on strike

[feralkid]

So why is bad for employees to organize? Why are corporations only allowed power?

People who think this way have been fooled by Corporate brainwashing to vote against their own interests.

Weak mindedness, really.

 

[Craig234]

Exactly this was needed in the early 1900's. Not so much now. Compare and contrast these two companies Nissan and GM. Nissan non-union. GM heavily unionized. I pick these two because there is a GM plant near me operating at 5% capacity. There is also a Nissan plant a 40 minute drive away that has plans to hire 1000+ people to build their electric car. I've known many Nissan employees over the years. They are paid well, have excellent benefits, and enjoy working for Nissan.

Pensions do not work. They will kill many American unionized companies.

I'm open to a discussion of the system, to arguments that something is outdated or not a good idea, as long as the discussion is for the middle class to do well.

What I'm not open to is idiocy of blind hatred for unions without any understanding of rheir benefit and role and the reason for them, nor of the consequences of just destroying them.

I rarely hear the former - most of the anti-union people I hear are the latter, ignorant and emotional; filled with fury and rage for reasons even they usually can't explain.

 

[BlahBlahYouToo]

Then why do these companies enter into bargaining with unions?

They're quite free to not...

one of the questions i tried to ask here. why enter a contract with unions in the first place?
http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2076027&highlight=unions

 

[Schadenfroh]

So why is bad for employees to organize? Why are corporations only allowed power?

It is not, Unions in many cases are good for workers and cause little harm to corporations. Now, when Unions gain too much power and run companies into the ground, then we have a problem. Right to Work laws do a pretty good job (around here at least) of regulating their power.

 

[BlahBlahYouToo]

The last time I checked, the only plants in the world that aren't union are foreign-owned plants in the US. Nissan, Toyota, Honda and so on are all union outside of the US.

different work ethic.
unlike the typical lazy american entitlement attitude.

 

[CycloWizard]

I don't know but you can be sure Boeing squeezes its employees as hard as possible.

Yes, it squeezes them by giving them a raise and pensions. They also get free additional education, child care, and box seats to Cardinals games. Time to call the human rights lawyers, eh?

 

[Moonbeam]

Yes, it squeezes them by giving them a raise and pensions. They also get free additional education, child care, and box seats to Cardinals games. Time to call the human rights lawyers, eh?

Why call a lawyer?

With a Union you can squeeze back and get a few perks for your blood.

You, of course, want a wage where you can buy all those good things yourself without having to pay union dues and bask in the fantasy you're a self made person.

That you are who you are is a total accident, a statistic on a ball and peg bell curve, a self congratulatory boob, the product of bounce.

 

[rudder]

I'm open to a discussion of the system, to arguments that something is outdated or not a good idea, as long as the discussion is for the middle class to do well.

What I'm not open to is idiocy of blind hatred for unions without any understanding of rheir benefit and role and the reason for them, nor of the consequences of just destroying them.

I rarely hear the former - most of the anti-union people I hear are the latter, ignorant and emotional; filled with fury and rage for reasons even they usually can't explain.

Going back to my Nissan vs. GM:

(side note: The UAW did come in and try to unionize labor at Nissan many times. The employees rejected it overwhelmingly each time http://www.allbusiness.com/transportation/motor-vehicle-parts-manufacturing/809260-1.html )

The Nissan employees I know are solidly middle class as our the GM workers.

Nissan has the advantage that the company as a whole can be more fluid without having to deal with union contracts. The one Nissan autoworker who helped me coach a softball team, at one point was only working 30 hours per week. He was hurting a little, but Nissan was able to get through a tough stretch. GM on the other hand needed a government loan to pay off a government loan. They paid thousands of employees to sit because of contracts. I could go on... but it has been beaten to death here. I won't even begin to touch teachers unions.

Sure it is great to work in a union shop... until the bills from all the healthcare and pension promises come due.

 

[Moonbeam]

Going back to my Nissan vs. GM:

(side note: The UAW did come in and try to unionize labor at Nissan many times. The employees rejected it overwhelmingly each time http://www.allbusiness.com/transportation/motor-vehicle-parts-manufacturing/809260-1.html )

The Nissan employees I know are solidly middle class as our the GM workers.

Nissan has the advantage that the company as a whole can be more fluid without having to deal with union contracts. The one Nissan autoworker who helped me coach a softball team, at one point was only working 30 hours per week. He was hurting a little, but Nissan was able to get through a tough stretch. GM on the other hand needed a government loan to pay off a government loan. They paid thousands of employees to sit because of contracts. I could go on... but it has been beaten to death here. I won't even begin to touch teachers unions.

Sure it is great to work in a union shop... until the bills from all the healthcare and pension promises come due.

Yup, and it's real nice working next to a Union Shop so their wages carry over to yours sort of like a lion kill plagued with vultures.

 

[CycloWizard]

Why call a lawyer?

With a Union you can squeeze back and get a few perks for your blood.

You, of course, want a wage where you can buy all those good things yourself without having to pay union dues and bask in the fantasy you're a self made person.

That you are who you are is a total accident, a statistic on a ball and peg bell curve, a self congratulatory boob, the product of bounce.

Yeah yeah yeah, whatever helps you sleep at night... on the couch in your parents' basement. It's easy to rationalize your own failure when you're not responsible for anything that happens to you, eh?

 

[BlahBlahYouToo]

Yup, and it's real nice working next to a Union Shop so their wages carry over to yours sort of like a lion kill plagued with vultures.

that's the free market at work.

ultimately, one system will lead to the demise of the parent company. oh wait, that already happened last year.

 

[piasabird]

They could move their whole operation to China or some place else tomorrow. Or they could move to another state like arkansas or tennessee.

 

[rudder]

Yup, and it's real nice working next to a Union Shop so their wages carry over to yours sort of like a lion kill plagued with vultures.

Except the non-union shop (Nissan) or more economically viable than the union shop (GM). Nissan does not have the same long term liabilities that GM has. The Nissan wages have not gone down now that the GM plant in Spring Hill is no longer making cars... why is that?

 

[SunnyD]

So why is bad for employees to organize? Why are corporations only allowed power?

The employee has just as much power as the corporation when non-union. The employee is free to leave and find a job elsewhere.

Collective bargaining is ridiculous. Yes, its goal is to protect those that don't "understand" so to speak. But why shouldn't I be allowed to work for the employer at whatever rate I agree upon that I feel is in my best interest? Why shouldn't the employer be allowed to pursue potential employees at a lower rate of pay should those employees be willing to accept it?

Unions are like religion - trying to keep people and corporations from doing what is in their best interests.

 

[pcgeek11]

I also work in a non union plant for a German automotive supplier (tier one). We are in very good shape and even have a company paid pension plan ( 100% paid for by the employer). We make a very good comparative wage and benefits. Excellent working conditions. The reason they are here is to get away from the union in Germany which is just as retarded as the unions here in the US.

You can keep the unions and I'll keep my paycheck intact without paying some fat cat union leader that doesn't do shit but take your money and drive the company into the ground.

 

[Slew Foot]

You think thats bad, last week the California Nurses Union was about to go on strike because they wanted more than a 4% raise and more breaks during the day (some judge declared it illegal). This for a job that pays 80K a year, 2 years out of high school.

 

[Moonbeam]

Yeah yeah yeah, whatever helps you sleep at night... on the couch in your parents' basement. It's easy to rationalize your own failure when you're not responsible for anything that happens to you, eh?

Actually, I was on a Reno bound bus that was hit by a semi that lost its breaks and the brain damage I got made work impossible for me. Luckily I had union accident insurance so I don't have to worry about money. I do blame the chemist that designed the break pads though. They were of inferior quality and caught fire on a long downgrade. Turns out he was an egotistical prick who got the job because his Dad owned the factory.

 

[Moonbeam]

I also work in a non union plant for a German automotive supplier (tier one). We are in very good shape and even have a company paid pension plan ( 100% paid for by the employer). We make a very good comparative wage and benefits. Excellent working conditions. The reason they are here is to get away from the union in Germany which is just as retarded as the unions here in the US.

You can keep the unions and I'll keep my paycheck intact without paying some fat cat union leader that doesn't do shit but take your money and drive the company into the ground.

Your job will go to China soon enough. Better go back to college and learn how to flip burgers.

 

[CycloWizard]

Actually, I was on a Reno bound bus that was hit by a semi that lost its breaks and the brain damage I got made work impossible for me. Luckily I had union accident insurance so I don't have to worry about money. I do blame the chemist that designed the break pads though. They were of inferior quality and caught fire on a long downgrade. Turns out he was an egotistical prick who got the job because his Dad owned the factory.

Everything in your story makes sense, except for the bit about a chemist designing brake pads.

 

[Jhhnn]

All pension plans depend on new hire participation to remain solvent. Unlike GM, honest plans are independently administered, and benefits are determined with ongoing actuarial projections.

GM's in-house plan was heavily over-promised by executives as a ploy to keep up production, avoid strikes, hit their bonus numbers, and hit the door running, independently wealthy.

Union members like going on strike even less than their managerial counterparts, and generally avoid it unless they think they're getting screwed. Boeing's proposal wrt the pension plan is rightfully regarded as getting screwed, plain and simple.

Replacement workers? Good luck with that. Hiring machinists isn't like hiring keyboard jockeys or pencil pushers- it takes skill, training and experience to deliver a quality product in that realm, particularly wrt anything as safety-sensitive as aircraft parts...

Boeing knows that a helluva lot better than what are apparently teenage ravers on this forum, guys who've not lived in the real world with real employers, raised real families, paid real bills. Boeing execs are just playing it tough, using fear tactics in a poor economy in an attempt to maximize their own take.

Union workers aren't competitive? hogwash. Ford seems to be doing fine, and the only way that the Japanese makers avoid unionization is with comparable pay and benefits in relation to union employers. On an international level, Germany is still the world's leading exporter, primarily in heavy manufacturing- they're almost universally unionized, with better benefits and only slightly lower pay than their american counterparts...

 

[Hacp]

All pension plans depend on new hire participation to remain solvent. Unlike GM, honest plans are independently administered, and benefits are determined with ongoing actuarial projections.

GM's in-house plan was heavily over-promised by executives as a ploy to keep up production, avoid strikes, hit their bonus numbers, and hit the door running, independently wealthy.

Union members like going on strike even less than their managerial counterparts, and generally avoid it unless they think they're getting screwed. Boeing's proposal wrt the pension plan is rightfully regarded as getting screwed, plain and simple.

Replacement workers? Good luck with that. Hiring machinists isn't like hiring keyboard jockeys or pencil pushers- it takes skill, training and experience to deliver a quality product in that realm, particularly wrt anything as safety-sensitive as aircraft parts...

Boeing knows that a helluva lot better than what are apparently teenage ravers on this forum, guys who've not lived in the real world with real employers, raised real families, paid real bills. Boeing execs are just playing it tough, using fear tactics in a poor economy in an attempt to maximize their own take.

Union workers aren't competitive? hogwash. Ford seems to be doing fine, and the only way that the Japanese makers avoid unionization is with comparable pay and benefits in relation to union employers. On an international level, Germany is still the world's leading exporter, primarily in heavy manufacturing- they're almost universally unionized, with better benefits and only slightly lower pay than their american counterparts...

Thats what they said about the air traffic controllers.

 

[Moonbeam]

Everything in your story makes sense, except for the bit about a chemist designing brake pads.

He did the chemical composition, not the shape.

 

[Jhhnn]

Thats what they said about the air traffic controllers.

The air traffic controllers had signed a no-strike contract, so they broke the law when they went on strike, enabling Reagan to act. Lots of them never actually walked out, anyway, which enabled the replacement of those who had... white collar unions are usually weak, anyway, given the psychology of the workplace.

Boeing machinists are under no such constraints.

 

[CycloWizard]

He did the chemical composition, not the shape.

Should have gone with the compressed asbestos pads - they can never catch on fire. :twisted:

 

[nonlnear]

The air traffic controllers had signed a no-strike contract, so they broke the law when they went on strike, enabling Reagan to act. Lots of them never actually walked out, anyway, which enabled the replacement of those who had... white collar unions are usually weak, anyway, given the psychology of the workplace.

Boeing machinists are under no such constraints.

Given the passage that Hacp highlighted, I don't think he was arguing the legal ease (no double entendre intended! ) of bringing in replacements but rather pointing out the parallel arguments that were made about scarcity of replacements due to specific skills required.