Body Comp Decision Time

[Lamont Burns]

I'm 6'4" 230 now. Started off at 202. Been on an SS style 5x5 for months now, been eating large, whole milk and the rest.

Lifting stats 5RMs:
Deadlift 265
Squat 240
Bench 170
OH press 105

Started everything at basically no strength.

Bodyfat % as best approximated is ~20%. No idea where I was when I started.

I'm becoming more vain. I always had the belly, now I'm getting budding man-mammaries. Good development in back, shoulders, and arms. My legs are long even for a 6'4" dude, and just look like knees in shorts, no quads hanging loose which is what I really want, altho strength is decent there. Fucking tall skinny legs.

Keep bulking or go on a cut b/c I'm at 20% bf? My doctor keeps telling me I'm right at the point of risk in the belly fat section, altho my cholesterol is fine.

My goal in the very end to DL 400, Squat 300, Bench 200-225 and OH press 140. Timeline is my lifetime.

 

[IceBergSLiM]

I don't think you need to "cut" per se

Just create a different dietary plan. lots of meats fish and fresh veggies. Cut out anything processed or baked and switch over to skim milk. You will probably lose weight whiel gaining strength.

 

[mchammer187]

Keep bulking you should at the very least get to 1.5 BW squat on a beginner program

I would ease up on the whole milk and switch it up to like 1% and clean up your diet like slim said though.

What is your diet like besides the GOMAD?

gaining 28 pounds is a lot and I'd be concerned if more than 30% of the weight you gained was fat especially if you started as a pure beginner.

Did you basically just add a GOMAD to a poor diet or are you eating cleanly now?

 

[brikis98]

Well, what is your primary goal right now?

* If you're more interested in maxing out your strength gains, then continue bulking. You're still in beginner territory and should be able to increase those numbers quite a bit.
* If you're more interested in appearance, then start cutting. You'll slow down your strength gains, but if you drop 5-8% body fat, you'll probably look dramatically better.

 

[Lamont Burns]

I gained the 28 pounds over 5-6 months. About a little over 1 pound per week. I don't think that's too bad. I added HOMAD to a decent diet. I would by no means call it poor. I get all the protein and healthy fats I need, it's the carbs section I always struggle with, but the last 2 weeks has been solid. I'm about 80% clean on an average week I would say.

My jeans size has only expanded 1 inch during this time, so I think I started with a relatively high BF and have not spiked too hard. I think I am going to continue bulk, try to get 85-90% clean and keep upping the weights. I doubt I will be squatting 350 on a beginner plan but perhaps I am wrong.

It's hitting winter time anyway!

 

[Lamont Burns]

My goal is to hit large strength levels, then shallow out the fat. I don't want to do multiple cycles of this bulk/cut. One long, tremendous year long or more bulk, then cut. If BF or jeans get ridiculous I will fix it.

I think I can push myself harder in the gym tbh, so I think I will.

 

[IceBergSLiM]

Originally posted by: Lamont Burns
My goal is to hit large strength levels, then shallow out the fat. I don't want to do multiple cycles of this bulk/cut. One long, tremendous year long or more bulk, then cut. If BF or jeans get ridiculous I will fix it.

I think I can push myself harder in the gym tbh, so I think I will.

What your doing is working then....just clean up the diet. When you hit your strength goals really clean up the diet....crank up the cardio and you'll melt away that fat in no time at all.

 

[Unmoosical]

Originally posted by: Lamont Burns
I gained the 28 pounds over 5-6 months. About a little over 1 pound per week. I don't think that's too bad. I added HOMAD to a decent diet. I would by no means call it poor. I get all the protein and healthy fats I need, it's the carbs section I always struggle with, but the last 2 weeks has been solid. I'm about 80% clean on an average week I would say.

My jeans size has only expanded 1 inch during this time, so I think I started with a relatively high BF and have not spiked too hard. I think I am going to continue bulk, try to get 85-90% clean and keep upping the weights. I doubt I will be squatting 350 on a beginner plan but perhaps I am wrong.

It's hitting winter time anyway!

You'll be surprised how high you can get on the "beginner" plan. While I'm only 5'6" and weighed 165 when I was able to lift (a few months ago) I was able to get through 5x5s of 265lbs in about a year's time. While it's not 350 it is past 1.5bw.

I think the others have given you the best suggestions you'll get so just keep with it and remember to stay on that beginner program for as long as you reap the benefits of the constant increases.

 

[SociallyChallenged]

Originally posted by: Lamont Burns
I gained the 28 pounds over 5-6 months. About a little over 1 pound per week. I don't think that's too bad. I added HOMAD to a decent diet. I would by no means call it poor. I get all the protein and healthy fats I need, it's the carbs section I always struggle with, but the last 2 weeks has been solid. I'm about 80% clean on an average week I would say.

My jeans size has only expanded 1 inch during this time, so I think I started with a relatively high BF and have not spiked too hard. I think I am going to continue bulk, try to get 85-90% clean and keep upping the weights. I doubt I will be squatting 350 on a beginner plan but perhaps I am wrong.

It's hitting winter time anyway!

To be perfectly honest, man, you just need to cut when you feel uncomfortable with your looks. At 20% body fat, I would personally cut. When you get higher, you start to get some health risks that are really unnecessary. However, since you're still relatively new to this all, I would bet money that you could cut and still gain strength.

 

[Deeko]

If you're still a beginner, there's a good chance you'll still make strength gains while cutting, if you do it right. Not as fast as while bulking, but you can still get stronger.

 

[NAC]

I've recently had a question about bulking... so I don't want to take over this thread - but I think it is relevant for the OP...


Is adding mass a function of the weight you lift (and making sure you get enough calories)? Or is it a function of lifting weight while eating excess calories?

In other words - if I follow 5*5, and my muscles continue to adapt to the work I give them, are they growing as fast as they would even if I were eating more? After all, they keep adapting to the work without a problem. So when I start to fail in the workouts, not having eaten enough might be a cause - because the muscles wont have been able to grow enough. But until then would I really benefit from more calories - or would it just be creating fat anyway?

Another way to ask the question - is it possible to ramp up the calories just as you ramp up the weights, or is there an extra benefit to always having a huge excess of calories even early on when the weights are pretty low?

 

[SociallyChallenged]

Originally posted by: NAC
I've recently had a question about bulking... so I don't want to take over this thread - but I think it is relevant for the OP...


Is adding mass a function of the weight you lift (and making sure you get enough calories)? Or is it a function of lifting weight while eating excess calories?

In other words - if I follow 5*5, and my muscles continue to adapt to the work I give them, are they growing as fast as they would even if I were eating more? After all, they keep adapting to the work without a problem. So when I start to fail in the workouts, not having eaten enough might be a cause - because the muscles wont have been able to grow enough. But until then would I really benefit from more calories - or would it just be creating fat anyway?

Another way to ask the question - is it possible to ramp up the calories just as you ramp up the weights, or is there an extra benefit to always having a huge excess of calories even early on when the weights are pretty low?

If you have more questions after my post, start a new thread so as not to hijack

What you need is progressive overload. As your body adapts, the weight you started with gets lighter. If you continue to use that weight, your body stops adapting. What you need to do is continually progress on the weight. This puts your body under progressive overload and it will continue to accommodate via hypertrophy and gained mass as long as you're in a caloric surplus. Not having eaten enough only effects the weights you can lift if you are eating too few for energy.

If you ramp up the calories too much, you will gain a higher skew of fat. That's usually not a desired result. I tell people to start with an excess of 500 calories per week first. If they have trouble adding weight, then they can increase it 200-300 calories. You also need to keep these calories up on your off days because that's when the muscles are being repaired and when the bulking occurs.

Also, I'm not even sure what you're asking in your last question. Progressive overload. If the weight is low, but is still heavy for the person, they'll benefit. If you do a weight that is light for you, you won't benefit as much.

 

[brikis98]

Originally posted by: NAC
In other words - if I follow 5*5, and my muscles continue to adapt to the work I give them, are they growing as fast as they would even if I were eating more? After all, they keep adapting to the work without a problem. So when I start to fail in the workouts, not having eaten enough might be a cause - because the muscles wont have been able to grow enough. But until then would I really benefit from more calories - or would it just be creating fat anyway?

Strength and muscle mass are related, but not the same. There are numerous factors that are involved with getting stronger: increased cross sectional area of the muscle is certainly one of them, but no less important are adaptations in your central nervous system (e.g. ability to recruit more of the muscle mass you already have) and improvements in your technique. Therefore, it's quite possible to get a whole lot stronger without adding much mass. Among experienced lifters, this is quite common: think of olympic weightlifters, who might stay in the same weight class their whole career, but continuously increase the amount they lift. The more time your body has had to adapt to lifting (ie, the more experienced you are), the more a caloric surplus is going to be essential to add mass. Beginners can get away with much less of a surplus, sometimes even adding muscle mass while eating maintenance or even on a caloric deficit, but that doesn't last long.

Edit ---> Forgot to finish my train of thought here:

Even though you can get stronger without getting bigger, adding mass is one of the most effective ways to increase strength. Adding 20lbs of muscle to your body will make an enormous difference in how much you can lift. Of course, mass gains tend to reach a plateau very quickly for a number of reasons: you might not want to get too heavy as after a point as it may interfere with other activities (e.g. running, sports, etc) and negatively impact your appearance. The latter is especially true as you will typically add fat as you gain muscle mass. The exact amount depends on genetics, but after a while, you'll hit a point of diminishing returns, where you have to add a whole lot of body fat to gain a little more muscle. Therefore, you eventually reach a point where mass gain is not your primary means of increasing strength (such as olympic weightlifters) and instead will have to take the slower/harder road of improving your CNS and technique.

Originally posted by: NAC
Another way to ask the question - is it possible to ramp up the calories just as you ramp up the weights, or is there an extra benefit to always having a huge excess of calories even early on when the weights are pretty low?

Your caloric surplus should be matched to the rate at which you wish to gain mass, not to the amount of weight you're lifting. Exactly how big a surplus you need depends on your goals and genetics, but if your goal is to add 1lb per week and you find that eating a 500 calorie surplus per day gets you there, then that's what you should eat whether you're squatting 100lbs or 400lbs. Having said that, if you find it difficult to jump into a caloric surplus in one day, there's nothing wrong with gradually tweaking your diet until you're comfortable with eating the proper amount. But again, this has nothing to do with how much weight you're lifting.

 

[NAC]

So I think SC and Briki's initial answers are agreeing with what I hoped for - as I'm adding weight to the bar - I'm growing and will continue to grow. Once I can't add weight to the bar - I may need to add calories.

Therefore the OP and me - if we want to gain mass - should worry first about adding weight to the bar. Once we can't - then we should adjust food/rest/whatever to continue to add weight. But we don't need to worry specifically about calories.

Originally posted by: brikis98
Your caloric surplus should be matched to the rate at which you wish to gain mass, not to the amount of weight you're lifting. Exactly how big a surplus you need depends on your goals and genetics, but if your goal is to add 1lb per week and you find that eating a 500 calorie surplus per day gets you there, then that's what you should eat whether you're squatting 100lbs or 400lbs. Having said that, if you find it difficult to jump into a caloric surplus in one day, there's nothing wrong with gradually tweaking your diet until you're comfortable with eating the proper amount. But again, this has nothing to do with how much weight you're lifting.

A follow up to this: I'd love to add 1 lb per week of solid muscle. But just because I eat a an extra cheese burger doesn't mean I will. So... since I want to only build muscle (will add fat if needed, but particularlly want to) I think I'll continue to add weight every workout, and only eat more when I can't add weight. Make sense?

 

[brikis98]

Originally posted by: NAC

Originally posted by: brikis98
Your caloric surplus should be matched to the rate at which you wish to gain mass, not to the amount of weight you're lifting. Exactly how big a surplus you need depends on your goals and genetics, but if your goal is to add 1lb per week and you find that eating a 500 calorie surplus per day gets you there, then that's what you should eat whether you're squatting 100lbs or 400lbs. Having said that, if you find it difficult to jump into a caloric surplus in one day, there's nothing wrong with gradually tweaking your diet until you're comfortable with eating the proper amount. But again, this has nothing to do with how much weight you're lifting.

A follow up to this: I'd love to add 1 lb per week of solid muscle. But just because I eat a an extra cheese burger doesn't mean I will. So... since I want to only build muscle (will add fat if needed, but particularlly want to) I think I'll continue to add weight every workout, and only eat more when I can't add weight. Make sense?

Unless you're a total beginner or have fantastic genetics, it's very hard to add just muscle and no fat. So, you have a few options:

1. Eat caloric maintenance. Your strength will go up at a slow pace and your weight will stay more or less the same (might add muscle mass if you're a beginner).

2. Eat a very small caloric surplus. Your strength will go up at a slightly faster pace and your weight will increase very slowly as well. Depending on your genetics, most of the growth will be muscle. If you're really afraid of fat, this is a good route to take, but I have to emphasize that progress will be very slow.

3. Eat a moderate caloric surplus. Your strength will go up faster and your mass will increase faster as well. You'll definitely add some fat, with the amount determined by your genetics. However, if you do a cut cycle after, you can usually drop most of the fat gained without sacrificing much of your new muscle. In my experience, most people find that they are stronger and have a lower body fat percentage after doing bulk/cut cycles than those who just eat maintenance or a small surplus for the same period of time. So, if you're ok with temporarily adding some fat to your body, this is typically the most efficient path to take.

 

[SociallyChallenged]

Originally posted by: NAC
So I think SC and Briki's initial answers are agreeing with what I hoped for - as I'm adding weight to the bar - I'm growing and will continue to grow. Once I can't add weight to the bar - I may need to add calories.

Therefore the OP and me - if we want to gain mass - should worry first about adding weight to the bar. Once we can't - then we should adjust food/rest/whatever to continue to add weight. But we don't need to worry specifically about calories.

A follow up to this: I'd love to add 1 lb per week of solid muscle. But just because I eat a an extra cheese burger doesn't mean I will. So... since I want to only build muscle (will add fat if needed, but particularlly want to) I think I'll continue to add weight every workout, and only eat more when I can't add weight. Make sense?

In response to the first statement - that's no necessarily true. Like brikis said, strength and mass are related, but are not synonymous. Often times, a plateau (when you stall on the weight) is neurological rather than muscular. If I stalled, I'd be more likely to switch lifting programs or try a different exercise than up my calories.

In response to the second one... that's not possible. The human body doesn't work like that. If you're in a caloric surplus, your body runs all major anabolic processes. With a resistance program, this includes gaining muscle mass and storing extra calories as fat. As brikis said, a lower caloric surplus will result in a slow mass gain, but in a better skew of muscle to fat. However, I believe we calculated it before and decided that bulk and cut cycles are actually a more efficient way of getting to a higher net muscle mass and lower body fat.

 

[NAC]

Thanks guys, this makes sense, and helps.

Sorry if I hijacked OP.

 

[Lamont Burns]

Not a problem, knowledge is always nice no matter where it pops up. For myself, I think I might try to round out a maintenance only diet and increase weights and see what happens for a few weeks. If I can maintain bodyweight in the process that will be sweet.