Bob Woodward: Trump's aides stole his papers 'to protect the country'

[purbeast0]

I haven't read a book over 100 pages probably in 20+ years. I also don't give a shit about politics. But I have to say, this damn book has me intrigued and I may have to get it. I do love me a good trainwreck.

 

[fskimospy]

All I can say is, it's too bad Trump will likely never be interviewed by Mueller. Too bad his lawyers and aids seem to have talked him out of it. Dowd was right. Trump would perjure himself at least 10 times an hour. He wouldn't have the self-control to not do it.

I wonder about that because from what I've read about past depositions he seems to be aware of the consequences of lying under oath and avoided it. This is another one of the reasons why I think the idea that he's constitutionally incapable of telling the truth isn't accurate. While I agree that he will likely never be interviewed by Mueller I think the reason is that he lacks an innocent explanation for his actions, not because he's unable to prevent himself from lying.

 

[woolfe9998]

I wonder about that because from what I've read about past depositions he seems to be aware of the consequences of lying under oath and avoided it. This is another one of the reasons why I think the idea that he's constitutionally incapable of telling the truth isn't accurate. While I agree that he will likely never be interviewed by Mueller I think the reason is that he lacks an innocent explanation for his actions, not because he's unable to prevent himself from lying.

You probably read this article here:

https://www.theatlantic.com/politic...eposed-but-not-that-way-louise-mensch/550073/

Which essentially argues that based on past depositions, Trump is a better liar under oath because he is more careful in his answers. He'll say he doesn't remember things he probably remembers, which is the kind of lie that is easy to get away with.

This seems at odds with Woodward's description of when they tried to prep Trump for the Mueller interview, where he essentially just lied recklessly like he does in public. Maybe Trump smartens up when he actually starts the interview. Or maybe Trump is less disciplined now because he's losing it over the stress of a job he can't handle and specifically over this Russia probe. I'd like to put it to the test.

Best way to get Trump to disregard the advice of his lawyers is to bait him. A good op-ed in the "failing New York Times" which, if you've read further, you know that Trump privately believes is credible, would do the trick. Say that Trump can't handle Mueller and would be eaten alive, that Trump knows this and that's why he won't do it.

 

[interchange]

You probably read this article here:

https://www.theatlantic.com/politic...eposed-but-not-that-way-louise-mensch/550073/

Which essentially argues that based on past depositions, Trump is a better liar under oath because he is more careful in his answers. He'll say he doesn't remember things he probably remembers, which is the kind of lie that is easy to get away with.

This seems at odds with Woodward's description of when they tried to prep Trump for the Mueller interview, where he essentially just lied recklessly like he does in public. Maybe Trump smartens up when he actually starts the interview. Or maybe Trump is less disciplined now because he's losing it over the stress of a job he can't handle and specifically over this Russia probe. I'd like to put it to the test.

Best way to get Trump to disregard the advice of his lawyers is to bait him. A good op-ed in the "failing New York Times" which, if you've read further, you know that Trump privately believes is credible, would do the trick. Say that Trump can't handle Mueller and would be eaten alive, that Trump knows this and that's why he won't do it.

Hard to say honestly. The fact that Trump is full of shit has been demonstrated repeatedly, yet he maintains a fervent base and a bunch of people who still generally believe him about things because they don't look any deeper. I don't think a Mueller interview full of bullshit is going to move that needle. So long as this becomes a contest of public perception (e.g. impeachment, legal proceedings that have a jury), I think Trump is in better position riding the horse he got here with, which is why the clown-show that has been Rudy Guiliani is actually better representation for him. If, instead, he faces justice by someone who is actually looking at facts, he's fucked, but I think that's been the case for quite some time so the best defense is offense.

 

[woolfe9998]

Hard to say honestly. The fact that Trump is full of shit has been demonstrated repeatedly, yet he maintains a fervent base and a bunch of people who still generally believe him about things because they don't look any deeper. I don't think a Mueller interview full of bullshit is going to move that needle. So long as this becomes a contest of public perception (e.g. impeachment, legal proceedings that have a jury), I think Trump is in better position riding the horse he got here with, which is why the clown-show that has been Rudy Guiliani is actually better representation for him. If, instead, he faces justice by someone who is actually looking at facts, he's fucked, but I think that's been the case for quite some time so the best defense is offense.

I don't want him to do the interview because I think his lies will turn his base away from him. That won't happen. I want him interviewed because it's a crime to lie to law enforcement and I doubt, especially on the issues that Mueller will inquire about, that Trump can do the full interview without getting caught in several lies.

 

[interchange]

I don't want him to do the interview because I think his lies will turn his base away from him. That won't happen. I want him interviewed because it's a crime to lie to law enforcement and I doubt, especially on the issues that Mueller will inquire about, that Trump can do the full interview without getting caught in several lies.

The speed and mechanism of accountability are what matters. If he lies his ass off under oath but that isn't actionable until Mueller releases his complete report and the way he is held accountable is through impeachment, then I'm not hopeful this will be a smoking gun. On the other hand, if the testimony is immediately public and has verifiable lies outside the scope of Mueller's investigation, then that does make a difference.

 

[woolfe9998]

The speed and mechanism of accountability are what matters. If he lies his ass off under oath but that isn't actionable until Mueller releases his complete report and the way he is held accountable is through impeachment, then I'm not hopeful this will be a smoking gun. On the other hand, if the testimony is immediately public and has verifiable lies outside the scope of Mueller's investigation, then that does make a difference.

I agree with this, but I also don't think we'll ever get enough GOP votes in the Senate to throw Trump out. It requires a super-majority. Personally, I think Trump needs to go to prison even if it happens after he leaves office. Allowing a POTUS to carry on with this much flagrant, barely concealed criminal activity, and not only stay in office but never face a legal penalty, is a very bad precedent.

 

[manly]

Finished the book this morning, it's a pretty quick read. Honestly, it doesn't move the needle much and is a bit of a letdown after the media circus in the week ahead of the book's consumer release. Although we get some more details about how dysfunctional the administration is; in a sick way, Woodward almost argues that reasonable people kept the ship from capsizing due to its captain. None of this really surprises anyone who's been paying attention.

If anything, I have a few quick takeaways. It almost sounds like Rob Porter is a direct primary source. While I've never been an investigative journalist, I don't know how else Woodward could have printed the quotes he has otherwise. He paints a somewhat poor view of the FBI, for example making them look inept over the Steele memo being presented to POTUS. Finally, the way John Dowd is presented as working strenuously and fairly with Bob Mueller suggests the special counsel investigation will not lead to the president.

I don't think Woodward intends to make the FBI look bad or to suggest POTUS has committed no crimes, but some of the passages tend to come off that way. Yes, the general thesis is that DJT is one of the most inept presidents of all time, and his administration has had to soldier along under preposterous conditions. But at least through the first 14 months, the way the book ends suggests DJT is too fucking dumb to have colluded with anybody (and that if he agrees to an interview with Mueller against Dowd's strongest counsel, he WILL perjure himself). I suppose Woodward is still gathering information for a book on the subsequent 14-20 months?

 

[fskimospy]

Finished the book this morning, it's a pretty quick read. Honestly, it doesn't move the needle much and is a bit of a letdown after the media circus in the week ahead of the book's consumer release. Although we get some more details about how dysfunctional the administration is; in a sick way, Woodward almost argues that reasonable people kept the ship from capsizing due to its captain. None of this really surprises anyone who's been paying attention.

If anything, I have a few quick takeaways. It almost sounds like Rob Porter is a direct primary source. While I've never been an investigative journalist, I don't know how else Woodward could have printed the quotes he has otherwise. He paints a somewhat poor view of the FBI, for example making them look inept over the Steele memo being presented to POTUS. Finally, the way John Dowd is presented as working strenuously and fairly with Bob Mueller suggests the special counsel investigation will not lead to the president.

I don't think Woodward intends to make the FBI look bad or to suggest POTUS has committed no crimes, but some of the passages tend to come off that way. Yes, the general thesis is that DJT is one of the most inept presidents of all time, and his administration has had to soldier along under preposterous conditions. But at least through the first 14 months, the way the book ends suggests DJT is too fucking dumb to have colluded with anybody (and that if he agrees to an interview with Mueller against Dowd's strongest counsel, he WILL perjure himself). I suppose Woodward is still gathering information for a book on the subsequent 14-20 months?

I would say that an important thing to keep in mind here is that Dowd was almost certainly the one and only source from Trump's legal team to give interviews for the book. There is no way on any planet that Dowd would give information about one of his clients to a reporter that was incriminating or indicated that Dowd thought he was guilty because that would lead to him being disbarred or worse. Dowd also clearly believes the president was lying to him but claims he decided to take the president at his word when it came to Russia and says in the book he never investigated it beyond Trump's assurances.

Whatever Trump's legal situation may or may not be there's no way to get it from this book because there doesn't seem to be any impartial (or even adversarial) sources with knowledge of the investigation.