Bob Costas goes on Gun Control tirade during Sunday Night Half-Time Show

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emperus

Diamond Member
Apr 6, 2012
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Those same prohibitions were in place when Holmes shot up a movie theater, terrorists crashed an airliner into the twin towers, and a crazy was mailing Anthrax to congressmen.

It's a good thing those laws are there to protect us.

This is what happens when people zealously defend a position they haven't thought through. I'm actually surprised at the gun advocates on this board. I would have thought, you'd be able to better discuss your position.

Terry, you are basically arguing that laws/regulations are a waste of time if it does not curb the behavior 100% of the time. Most people would argue in those cases that we need better laws, you argue that we should just do away with them. Breathtakingly Stunning.

Someone murders, let's do away with murder laws. A terrorist attack? let's do away with all our anti-terorism efforts. One person speeds, let's get rid of all speeding laws.
 
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TerryMathews

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
11,473
2
0
This is what happens when people zealously defend a position they haven't thought through. I'm actually surprised at the gun advocates on this board. I would have thought, you'd be able to better discuss your position.

Terry, you are basically arguing that laws/regulations are a waste of time if it does not curb the behavior 100% of the time. Most people would argue in those cases that we need better laws, you argue that we should just do away with them. Breathtakingly Stunning.

Someone murders, let's do away with murder laws. A terrorist attack? let's do away with all our anti-terorism efforts. One person speeds, let's get rid of all speeding laws.

The only specific difference in your straw man is there is no amendment saying "the right of the people to murder shall not be infringed. "
 

TerryMathews

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
11,473
2
0
are you saying that's what will happen if the 2nd is repealed?

I'm not sure that is the case--considering that every other developed nation in this world without such a law is also not a dictatorship.

Maybe. Maybe not. It would be however removing the safety valve the founding fathers put in place to prevent a dictatorship.
 

emperus

Diamond Member
Apr 6, 2012
7,771
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The only specific difference in your straw man is there is no amendment saying "the right of the people to murder shall not be infringed. "

Huh? What does that have anything to do with what you have just been arguing? I give up.
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
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Maybe. Maybe not. It would be however removing the safety valve the founding fathers put in place to prevent a dictatorship.

people act as if this is the only safety valve found within the constitution. that is, of course, absurd.

Here are the real safety valves that prevent dictatorships:

--the right of the people to vote shall not be infringed (oh yeah--another amendment that was updated, when such rights were granted to people of both genders and all races. cool how that works)

--the system of checks and balances that was put in place, established by the creation of the executive and legislative branches, and the role of the Judicial to pimp slap the other two when they act up.

further, the 2nd amendment protected the existence of an armed militia. This is before we had a standing army, and the concept of such was generally horrific to nascent demographic societies (talk about fearing the overwhelming power of government...)

...but now we have a standing army. An extremely powerful one, at that. Does this mean that the 2nd is now redundant and completely obsolete or, (a far more frightening thought) more necessary than ever?

that's the real question.
 

emperus

Diamond Member
Apr 6, 2012
7,771
1,517
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You can't really be that stupid.

I just processed the 2nd half of what you wrote.

The only specific difference in your straw man is there is no amendment saying "the right of the people to murder shall not be infringed. "

Are you arguing that the right to own a gun is more sacrosanct then the right to Life and Liberty without being murdered?

Dude, as Chris Christie would say. You're an idiot.
 

TerryMathews

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
11,473
2
0
I just processed the 2nd half of what you wrote.



Are you arguing that the right to own a gun is more sacrosanct then the right to Life and Liberty without being murdered?

Dude, as Chris Christie would say. You're an idiot.

There is no point in taking to you. Just like in the Zimmerman thread, you suddenly fail to comprehend English when presented with an argument you can't easily counter.
 

TerryMathews

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
11,473
2
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...but now we have a standing army. An extremely powerful one, at that. Does this mean that the 2nd is now redundant and completely obsolete or, (a far more frightening thought) more necessary than ever?

that's the real question.

I'm not claiming to have the answer to that. And TBH I'm not 100% sure how I feel about either idea you presented. I am sure though that I feel we should continue to hold our Constitution to be the final arbiter of the people's rights vs the Federal Government. What really scares me is a day when we start ignoring inconvenient parts and calling them outdated a la England and the right to own guns.

The second is just a convenient pivot point. There are people today who would love to be able to simply change the way we do things to better suit their agenda. The Senate & filibusters are another good example.

I'm not saying filibusters are good, but nor should Harry Reid get to just change it to how he wants it to operate.
 

emperus

Diamond Member
Apr 6, 2012
7,771
1,517
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I'm not claiming to have the answer to that. And TBH I'm not 100% sure how I feel about either idea you presented. I am sure though that I feel we should continue to hold our Constitution to be the final arbiter of the people's rights vs the Federal Government. What really scares me is a day when we start ignoring inconvenient parts and calling them outdated a la England and the right to own guns.

The second is just a convenient pivot point. There are people today who would love to be able to simply change the way we do things to better suit their agenda. The Senate & filibusters are another good example.

I'm not saying filibusters are good, but nor should Harry Reid get to just change it to how he wants it to operate.

1.) Well you should be scared because we have already ignored inconvenient parts and called then outdated. We have things called amendments. Which are changes to the Constitution. Hence the Amendments. In fact Article V of the Constitution describes the process to amend the Constitution.

2.) The filibuster process has been changed over the years. In fact the Senate employs a 2 track approach now, whereas multiple bills are up at the same time, so Filibustering something doesn't close the senate as it did back in the earlier days. Google Filibuster and the Senate and you should have a better understanding.

But basically, you not only have a stunningly superficial (stealing from Zbigniew Brzezinski) understanding of history and most of the things you opine on, you have only superficially thought through the things that come out your mouth.
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
110,598
29,231
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I'm not claiming to have the answer to that. And TBH I'm not 100% sure how I feel about either idea you presented. I am sure though that I feel we should continue to hold our Constitution to be the final arbiter of the people's rights vs the Federal Government. What really scares me is a day when we start ignoring inconvenient parts and calling them outdated a la England and the right to own guns.

The second is just a convenient pivot point. There are people today who would love to be able to simply change the way we do things to better suit their agenda. The Senate & filibusters are another good example.

I'm not saying filibusters are good, but nor should Harry Reid get to just change it to how he wants it to operate.

and see, that's the problem, because final is the absolute wrong word. People treat this thing like a holy text, when both are completely fallible. The entire point of the constitution is that it has baked-in error--being that it is the work of humans, placed in one era, who realized that the situations of one era will, at some point, be completely irrelevant to another.

There are laws that are understood to be universal truths, and will likely never be touched, of course, and many that are up for, and have been, revised. Many believe that the 2nd is one of these universal truths (right to protection), and I'm not sure I disagree with that, but I also see the very real problem that the intent of the amendment is more or less obsolete in our current era.

Now, I honestly don't think the 2nd should be repealed, or even touched, really. I'm just saying that defending it is not as easy as people want to think--well, as soon as one pulls their fingers out of their ears and stops chatting LALALALA and actually thinks for a second, the problems can be discerned.

Chiefly, as far as a tool to "protect our democracy": Every other example of a developed democratic nation in this world has a thriving, protected democracy without armed citizens.

(People like to throw in Switzerland as an example of a nation that, without guns, would never be neutral. These people are idiots who have never been to Switzerland: The entire country is a freaking mountain fortress. You've got max fortified bunkers outfitted with howitzers pointing across all sides of the border. You've got military and defense infrastructure built below all major civilian infrastructure in the main cities. People don't invade Switzerland because people aren't stupid)
 

TerryMathews

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
11,473
2
0
1.) Well you should be scared because we have already ignored inconvenient parts and called then outdated. We have things called amendments. Which are changes to the Constitution. Hence the Amendments. In fact Article V of the Constitution describes the process to amend the Constitution.

2.) The filibuster process has been changed over the years. In fact the Senate employs a 2 track approach now, whereas multiple bills are up at the same time, so Filibustering something doesn't close the senate as it did back in the earlier days. Google Filibuster and the Senate and you should have a better understanding.

But basically, you not only have a stunningly superficial (stealing from Zbigniew Brzezinski) understanding of history and most of the things you opine on, you have only superficially thought through the things that come out your mouth.

I'm not sure what you're arguing here. Why the big production about amending the constitution? That's the point I was advocating. I'm glad you agree with me?
 

emperus

Diamond Member
Apr 6, 2012
7,771
1,517
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I'm not sure what you're arguing here. Why the big production about amending the constitution? That's the point I was advocating. I'm glad you agree with me?

You're right, I don't know what point your advocating, because I'm sure you don't either.

But the constitution is a document with words on it. Our courts provide the context to those words. Some context based on what they can derive the original intent of the writers to be and some based on what is best for society today. And when enough people feel that those words aren't relevant anymore or no more context can govern them to make them relevant, the Constitution provides a means to amend itself.

What you're confused by is that the constitution is the final arbiter of our laws and interaction between us and government (local and federal), not because of the words that were originally written (because they have been amended with time) in them but because of the mechanisms in which the Constitution allows itself to be altered and the means the Constitution allows itself to be interpreted.

There was a time when blacks were apportioned 3/5 of a vote by the Constitution.

Article 1, Section 2, Paragraph 3
Representatives and direct Taxes shall be apportioned among the several States which may be included within this Union, according to their respective Numbers, which shall be determined by adding to the whole Number of free Persons, including those bound to Service for a Term of Years, and excluding Indians not taxed, three fifths of all other Persons.

That was outdated and wrong and it was corrected. The Constitution is not infallible.
 

buckshot24

Diamond Member
Nov 3, 2009
9,916
85
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It was a compromise to keep the southern states from having more representation in congress by counting slaves.
 

Pr0d1gy

Diamond Member
Jan 30, 2005
7,775
0
76
Anyone catch this week's halftime topic? They made him basically hand the time over to Tony Dungy to discuss the DUI problem in the league...lol
 

emperus

Diamond Member
Apr 6, 2012
7,771
1,517
126
It was a compromise to keep the southern states from having more representation in congress by counting slaves.

Ok. That point would have been derived if you took History in high school or if you googled it. So what was your point of telling me that? Are you saying it was a good compromise?
 

xj0hnx

Diamond Member
Dec 18, 2007
9,262
3
76
Saying someone is going into that territory, "righty conspiracy world", is not the same as saying they are right wing shills. So thanks for joining in but you can crawl back into your cave now.

Oh and I'm not a truther, I just was actually awake and paying attention when 9/11 happened. WTC 7 was reported as "being pulled" a full half hour before it was. You cannot deny that. If you want to bury your head in the sand then that's fine with me. I'm just telling people exactly what happened. There is no disputing that tower 7 was still standing when multiple news outlets reported it as being pulled.

If that makes me an idiot, it makes you a fucking sheep. I'd rather be an idiot with my eyes open than a sheep with farmer Bush's dick in my asshole.

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA ...breathe ...BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAA