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Blue-Ray VS HD-DVD The Untold Story.

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ArneBjarne, from what I've read the HD-DVD players would use a single laser that could read the BOTH the HD-DVDs & current DVDs where as the Blu-ray would require dual lasers so it could be backward compatible.

Is this not the case?

IMO Blu-ray is simply much more expensive than the HD-DVD alternative. By expensive I mean the manufacturers would have to invest in new infrastructure. Consumer Blu-ray players would be more expensive due to the dual laser requirements (for backward compatibility) OR the consumer would have to re-purchase of their entire movie library in the new Blu-ray format.
 
Originally posted by: SGtheArtist
ArneBjarne, from what I've read the HD-DVD players would use a single laser that could read the BOTH the HD-DVDs & current DVDs where as the Blu-ray would require dual lasers so it could be backward compatible.

Is this not the case?

IMO Blu-ray is simply much more expensive than the HD-DVD alternative. By expensive I mean the manufacturers would have to invest in new infrastructure. Consumer Blu-ray players would be more expensive due to the dual laser requirements (for backward compatibility) OR the consumer would have to re-purchase of their entire movie library in the new Blu-ray format.
Click to expand...

HD-DVD uses a blue laser just like Blu-Ray. link

Blue laser diode for high-density recording
The blue laser that reads and writes to HD DVD has a shorter wavelength than DVD's red laser. Even though DVD and HD DVD share the same disc structure, the blue laser's shorter wavelength translates into an HD DVD storage capacity dwarfing that of DVD. Single-sided, single-layer DVDs can hold 4.7GB of data. The single-sided dual-layer HD DVD-ROM surpasses that 6.2 times with its 30GB capacity.
Click to expand...

Plenty of DVD players are already dual laser in order for them to read eg. CD-R discs.

Philips/Nero demonstrated Philips triple writer drive at IFA (CD/DVD/BD), which uses this triple laser pickup:

By integrating the infrared, red and blue wavelength lasers and single detector into one single OPU concept, Philips has succeeded in developing a flexible triple-writer OPU design in a compact form factor, similar to the current OPU66 DVD writer. This means that hardware manufacturers can easily integrate this advanced OPU in a standard half-height drive or slim-line consumer set-top box recorder design. The compact OPU81 form factor is achieved by using a patented objective lens design. In this way the three different wavelengths (CD infrared 780 nm, DVD red 650 nm and BD blue 405 nm) can all use the same optical light path. A unique lens construction with active collimator enables reading and writing double layer Blu-ray Discs up to 50 GB.

The OPU81 is designed for mass production and will meet mass consumer price levels. The cost-effective OPU81 flexible architecture with three separate lasers allows the read and writing speeds to be optimized to specific applications. Moreover, future speed improvements using higher-powered lasers can be implemented quickly with this OPU concept.
Click to expand...

Here is triple laser diode driver from Renesas, which can be used for either CD/DVD/BD or CD/DVD/HD DVD:

Industry- first support of three wavelengths for BD/DVD/CD or HD-DVD/DVD/CD with a single chip

The R2S35200NP offers the industry's first single-chip implementation of three laser diode drivers for Blu-ray Disc (BD) or HD-DVD use, DVD use, and CD use. The mounting area has been reduced by approximately15% (Renesas Technology comparison) compared with a conventional multiple-package configuration, enabling the optical pickup to be made smaller and lower power consumption to be achieved.
With DVD, the R2S35200NP also supports DVD-RAM.
Click to expand...
 
ArneBjarne, you're like talking to a brick wall. You continue to use the same canned response with no regard for what anyone is saying. Time will tell, but at this point the evidence points the MS being right.
 
Originally posted by: Pariah
ArneBjarne, you're like talking to a brick wall. You continue to use the same canned response with no regard for what anyone is saying. Time will tell, but at this point the evidence points the MS being right.
Click to expand...

So far I have backed up my claims with links, granted you think they are all fake, but at least others can read them and decide for themselves. You on the other hand have not given me any links to back up your claims, nor any reason at all why I should just take everything Microsoft has to say about their competitor at face value
 
Sorry, I must have missed the link. Where's this link where a company states they have hybrid and 50GB dual layer Blu-Ray discs ready for production and they are just waiting for the hardware to be released? No, wait, Blu-Ray recorders have been available for over a year, so they can't be waiting on the hardware. Where are the discs for sale?
 
Nevermind, it just ocurred to me where all those discs are. They're in glass cases at trade shows apparently too valuable to actually put up for sale.
 
Originally posted by: videoclone
I want to....

Backup my 300GB hard drive on 6 Blue-Ray disks OR i can
Backup my 300GB hard drive on 10 HD-DVD Disks

Blue Ray = WIN

I also want to Burn some of my 700Mb Divx / Xvid files onto a Disk

I can burn 71 of these files onto 1 Blue-Ray disk and with
HD-DVD I can burn 42 files

Again Blue Ray = WIN

OMG Guys why is it that in every single discussion about Blue-Ray VS HD-DVD all of you disregard the PC fact of the argument ...

I stated the advantage of blue-ray in a BIG way and for all of you people comparing this to VHS VS Beta its not the same thing this time around because of PC's

The Computer industry is allot bigger then the DVD/Movie industry so it would have allot more weight in the direction of what standard becomes number 1

Its not all about those players that sit under TV sets anymore its also about what?s better for PC's and everyone knows its Blue-ray .. hence the reason why every PC hardware manufacture and his cat is backing it.

It?s also the same reason why they Back AMD ?. The industry follows Intel but the Asian companies that are not Intel & Microsoft puppets make AMD motherboard and support it.

I think we will still see blue-ray on PC's weather it loses to HD-DVD or not.
When people want the best ( AMD - Blue-Ray ) Companies are always there to support it Even if Intel and Microsoft wont! ( AMD - Blue-Ray ) Ahhmm Don?t bag me it?s a good example.

^___^ Any thoughts?
Click to expand...

Youre flawed because you havent placed the cost of media into your formula... Anyhting Sony has to do with, im automatically against.. Support what Phillips supports...
 
Anyhting Sony has to do with, im automatically against.. Support what Phillips supports...
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?

Philips is one of the founding members of the Blu-ray Disc Association. They also codeveloped the original CD with Sony as well as SACD. Sony and Philips are practically the same company when it comes to optical media. Kind of hard to boycott one and support the other.
 
Originally posted by: Pariah
Sorry, I must have missed the link. Where's this link where a company states they have hybrid and 50GB dual layer Blu-Ray discs ready for production and they are just waiting for the hardware to be released? No, wait, Blu-Ray recorders have been available for over a year, so they can't be waiting on the hardware. Where are the discs for sale?
Click to expand...

The only players out at the moment are those in Japan, which are not the same as those schedueled for worldwide launch in 2006.

Those players and the cartridged media for them can be found here and here. Now I can't see any other models than the ones for the Japanese market, which makes perfect sense since the others have not been launched yet, but feel free to point out these other ones you speak of that have supposedly been out for over a year.

The surprise entry in Microsoft's and Intel's list of failures is disc storage capacity. On paper, Blu-ray appears to have the advantage. But the two companies looked beneath the paper: Capacity, said Ribas, "used to be the biggest advantage of Blu-ray, and we believed it. We thought, they'll get 50 GByte BD-ROM discs working, but it's not happening, and it's nowhere in sight. There are not even pilots. It's only in the lab that they are building these discs." With regard to demonstrated capacity, he told us, HD DVD-ROM actually leads BD-ROM by a score of 30 GByte to 25 GByte.
Click to expand...

With these developments in the industry, replication facilites in the United States are setting up and preparing to mass produce BD-ROM Discs. Technicolor is establishing a complete pilot BD disc manufacturing process by July 2005. Cineram already has a pilot replication line that produced demo discs for CES 2005 and is awaiting the delivery of commercial lines.
Click to expand...

So again nowhere in sight. Not even pilots. Funny what was it that Cineram already had and Technicolor were establishing by July 2005? Ahh but those are only for 25GB discs you say? Then why does it specifically describe it as "ramping up for mass production of 50GB discs?

link
In addition to ramping up for mass production of the 50GB discs that will be available at format launch, Blu-ray has begun work to ensure that the format continues to grow as high-definition technology evolves. Blu-ray companies have succesfully demonstrated 200GB discs in a laboratory environment and are poised to further expand the format's capacity as needs dictate.
Click to expand...

But hey, it is from BDA so it is just another part of the conspiracy right?
 
Originally posted by: ArneBjarne
Originally posted by: Pariah
Sorry, I must have missed the link. Where's this link where a company states they have hybrid and 50GB dual layer Blu-Ray discs ready for production and they are just waiting for the hardware to be released? No, wait, Blu-Ray recorders have been available for over a year, so they can't be waiting on the hardware. Where are the discs for sale?
Click to expand...

The only players out at the moment are those in Japan, which are not the same as those schedueled for worldwide launch in 2006.

Those players and the cartridged media for them can be found here and here. Now I can't see any other models than the ones for the Japanese market, which makes perfect sense since the others have not been launched yet, but feel free to point out these other ones you speak of that have supposedly been out for over a year.

The surprise entry in Microsoft's and Intel's list of failures is disc storage capacity. On paper, Blu-ray appears to have the advantage. But the two companies looked beneath the paper: Capacity, said Ribas, "used to be the biggest advantage of Blu-ray, and we believed it. We thought, they'll get 50 GByte BD-ROM discs working, but it's not happening, and it's nowhere in sight. There are not even pilots. It's only in the lab that they are building these discs." With regard to demonstrated capacity, he told us, HD DVD-ROM actually leads BD-ROM by a score of 30 GByte to 25 GByte.
Click to expand...

With these developments in the industry, replication facilites in the United States are setting up and preparing to mass produce BD-ROM Discs. Technicolor is establishing a complete pilot BD disc manufacturing process by July 2005. Cineram already has a pilot replication line that produced demo discs for CES 2005 and is awaiting the delivery of commercial lines.
Click to expand...

So again nowhere in sight. Not even pilots. Funny what was it that Cineram already had and Technicolor were establishing by July 2005? Ahh but those are only for 25GB discs you say? Then why does it specifically describe it as "ramping up for mass production of 50GB discs?

link
In addition to ramping up for mass production of the 50GB discs that will be available at format launch, Blu-ray has begun work to ensure that the format continues to grow as high-definition technology evolves. Blu-ray companies have succesfully demonstrated 200GB discs in a laboratory environment and are poised to further expand the format's capacity as needs dictate.
Click to expand...

But hey, it is from BDA so it is just another part of the conspiracy right?
Click to expand...

Saying that there will be 50GB disc and actually making millions of them is another story. Right now producing millions of affordable 8.5GB disc isn't happening. They are just not cost effective.

Commercial 50GB disc may be made and used in runs by companies but I bet the battle on the home burner front will be the HD-DVD single layer 20GB versus BluRay single layer 27GB disc. At least they will be more affordable then the dual layer versions of both.


 
ArneBjarne,

Thanks for linking & clarifying the laser information. I was unaware that both technologies used the blue laser.

With this in mind I think the bottom line will be purely how much it cost to the end user and the marketing to convince us that the new hardware will support our current DVD collection.
 
A little more disputing for you Pariah:

After quietly heating up over recent months, the battle over next-generation DVD formats boiled over Thursday, as Dell and Hewlett-Packard assailed Intel and Microsoft, which have lined up in the opposite camp.

Earlier this week, Microsoft and Intel announced that they were backing the HD-DVD format, saying its approach will spur easier home networking of movies and make it simpler to distribute hybrid discs containing both high-definition and traditional DVD movies. Dell and HP shot back Thursday, saying the world's largest software and processor makers were spreading "inaccurate" information. They also reiterated their backing for the rival Blu-ray format.
Click to expand...

More disputing for you:

Microsoft and Intel's announcement erroneously indicates that HD-DVD has an advantage in a number of areas. To set the record straight, here are the facts:


Capacity: Blu-ray Disc's capacity is 50GB. This will be available at
launch for BD-ROM, BD-R, and BD-RE. This is 67% more than HD-DVD's 30GB
ROM capacity and 150% more than its recordable storage capacity -- a
critical issue for computer users.

Managed copy: Managed Copy is not a function of the optical disc format,
but a function of the content protection system. The AACS content
protection system, which is used by both Blu-ray Disc and HD-DVD, enables
managed copy and network streaming functionality. It is not format
specific.

Hybrid Disc: Blu-ray Disc was the first format to introduce a hybrid
disc that could hold both high and standard definition versions of a
movie on a single disc. The Blu-ray Hybrid Disc is the more elegant
solution as it holds both versions of the film on the same side of the
disc, which provides for easy labeling and greater ease of use for
consumers.

Backward Compatibility: Blu-ray Disc players and recorders can and will
support DVDs through the addition of red lasers in the hardware. In
order to be backward compatible with DVD, HD-DVD must also include a red
laser.

Interactivity: Blu-ray disc is built on BD-Java(TM), which leverages
years of industry investment and experience in the set-top box, PC, and
cell phone industries. BD-JavaTM provides a mature, robust platform for
authoring and delivering unprecedented interactive capabilities to the
user for movies, music, and games. BD-Java was selected over iHD, the
developmental Microsoft technology used in HD-DVD. The BDA carefully
compared both iHD and BD-J, and concluded that iHD didn't go far enough
in providing a compelling feature set beyond DVD, while BD-J offered
studios a much richer palette for providing a compelling interactive HD
experience for consumers, particularly when a player is connected to a
network.
Click to expand...
 
How many more meaningless links are you going to post? I still don't see anyone arguing MS's claim that the media is not ready for production yet. Saying we will have discs ready at launch when there is no launch date is a worthless claim. The closest we can speculate on a launch date would be when the PS3 is released, reportedly spring of next year, but since it assuredly won't have a writeable drive, the media availability wouldn't matter.
 
Originally posted by: Pariah
How many more meaningless links are you going to post? I still don't see anyone arguing MS's claim that the media is not ready for production yet. Saying we will have discs ready at launch when there is no launch date is a worthless claim. The closest we can speculate on a launch date would be when the PS3 is released, reportedly spring of next year, but since it assuredly won't have a writeable drive, the media availability wouldn't matter.
Click to expand...

Of course they are meaningless to you. I think we have adequately established that you don't believe anything coming from BDA, while you take everything coming from HD DVD as gospel. Someone else might be interested in both sides of the story though.
 
Some response to Blu-ray's PR: here

As to the central issue of managed copy, the BDA noted that managed copy is part of the AACS protection specification, and not part of the optical format per se. However, their carefully worded response did not address the issue of mandatory managed copy support, which still leaves things where we suspected they were yesterday: publishers may or may not offer managed copy through Blu-ray, which is something that Ribas indicated that Microsoft was not comfortable with. Microsoft wants the option available on all discs. Doherty added that while HD DVD has pledged their mandatory support publicly, "the BD has not done so and continues to refuse to do so."
Click to expand...

If you read the whole article it sounds like M$ favors HD-DVD because everything is geared to go now.
 
Tech doesn't always win. I can think of a number of cases of this.
Click to expand...

So can I.

Sony's Betamax which had better video quality and also had a large number of movie distributors on board. Heck, I had Batman on Betamax.
Sony's minidisc format.
Sony's atrac format.
Sony's Bluray format...

Er...nevermind.
 
"blueray and hddvd maybe unnecessary..because dvd is all you ever need! "

LOL

"No one will need more than 637 kb of memory for a personal computer."

Sounds similar.
 
Originally posted by: SGtheArtist
"blueray and hddvd maybe unnecessary..because dvd is all you ever need! "

LOL

"No one will need more than 637 kb of memory for a personal computer."

Sounds similar.
Click to expand...

LOL? DVD maybe here to stay for at least another 10 years. By that time, you be laughing at yourself in the mirror still. 😛
 
Originally posted by: videoclone
Why cant they just make Dual Combo drives like they did for CD - DVD
Click to expand...


They can, but then they need to pay royalties to both camps and they will cost twice as much.
 
Originally posted by: ArneBjarne

More disputing for you:

Microsoft and Intel's announcement erroneously indicates that HD-DVD has an advantage in a number of areas. To set the record straight, here are the facts:


Capacity: Blu-ray Disc's capacity is 50GB. This will be available at
launch for BD-ROM, BD-R, and BD-RE. This is 67% more than HD-DVD's 30GB
ROM capacity and 150% more than its recordable storage capacity -- a
critical issue for computer users.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...

I would have to question the integrity of the article's author for including outrageous marketing deceptions like that.

 
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