I did this, but couldn't get the boss scripts to work correctly. I lost patience and decided I'd try again after Lich King dropped
I did this, but couldn't get the boss scripts to work correctly. I lost patience and decided I'd try again after Lich King dropped
That statement is actually correct. There is no way you can see all of the content playing 2 hours a night 4 nights a week. Besides, that IS a lot of time especially when working a full time job and having a family. Plus, your two hours statement is likely exaggerated anyway, you probably are like one of my friends who says they only play for an hour or so when they played all damn night. Lets be realistic please... You have travel time, AH time, coordination of said group that you won't even get started until 30 minutes after logging in, unless you are filling in for someone mid-instance or mid raid.
Now, I don't think someone who plays 2 hours a night, 4 nights a week is a 'loser' or doesn't have the life. But at the same time, I don't think someone who plays 2 hours a night, 4 nights a week can accomplish what you claim. Send me screenshots from every raid boss on your character. Post them up, lets see the current 25 man raids, etc... Post um if you got um.
This. Seriously, a full Kara run was minimum 4 hours, and that's if you're able to log in and immediately start playing and never wipe on any bosses. And that was only a 10-man raid! I can't even imagine trying to clear Black Temple in 2 hours. That can't be done.
No sane raiding group will take on someone who is only able to commit to two hours at a time, especially when at least 20-30 min of that will probably be spent getting everyone ready with water, pots, mats, ports, etc. That leaves enough time for a few raid bosses before you have to leave. Worse yet, your spot could have been given to someone else who could really use the loot which helps raid progression.
There's no way you can come close to seeing all of the content playing 2 hours at a time. You can see all of the 5-man instances, sure, but that's not "all of the content." It's closer to something like 50% of the content.
I think this kind of justification is falling by the way side, however. Blizzard is moving more towards a casual playing experience now that they're letting players tackle the end-game raids as 10-man instead of requiring 25-man (or *shudder* 40-man) groups. They still require you to put in a lot more time than most casual players are willing to deal with, since you need to be decently geared for those end-game 10-man raids.
That's the worst analogy ever, and if you'd stop a second and think before you speak you'd realize that.
I'm not sure how I feel about it. After all, reverse engineering is legal. It's legal for me to take apart a VCR, figure out how it works, and then make my own VCRs using similar technology. That much is not up for debate; even the Supreme Court has consistently agreed on this. Reverse engineering software is a lot less clear, but the courts have still generally supported the legality of reverse engineering as being important for innovation (by seeing how someone else does something, you can combine their ideas with yours and potentially create something even better)
Actually, you're wrong.
While reverse engineering for personal or informational usage is not illegal, reverse engineering to gain competitive advantages IS illegal. See the Intel/AMD lawsuits back in the day.
Aside from that, when you purchased WoW, you purchased it with a license (which you agree to every time you launch the game) to play on Blizzard's servers only. Hence, the act of PLAYING any server other than Blizzard's is indeed illegal.
These server projects typically are not for profit, hence some see them as gray areas. However, if they are using a world which resembles World of Warcraft, they are infringing on intellectual property claims by Blizzard. For instance, all of the quest dialog is copyrighted by Blizzard. If you copy that, you are infringing. So, if someone was running a carbon copy of WoW, even if they were doing it for free and not accepting donations, they would still be breaking the law.
HumblePie
Lifer
- Oct 30, 2000
- 14,665
- 440
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what you feel should be the case and what is actually law are two different matters. As for your analogy to windows, wow are you really that naive? Reverse engineering window activation server software wouldn't be illegal as long as you make it so the code activates software you wrote yourself and are intending to sell. Doing it to activate illegal copies of windows to get around legal DRM schemes isn't.
Here's a better example. Microsoft writes a plethora of software. One of them is the Office suite. Somewhere along the way, people didn't feel like paying hundreds of bucks to microsoft for their office suite. They decided to reverse engineer and make Open Office and then make that software they reversed engineered as open source. Perfectly legit thing to do. No you, I or anyone can use Open Office and open up word documents, and excel spread sheets and all sorts of stuff you would normally have to use Microsoft Office to do otherwise. Get the picture here?
again, no I'm not. If I decide to map ALL the functionality of windows, figure out for myself how to write the source code without looking at the original, and then proceed to make an Operating System that looks like, feels like, runs similar to Windows I am perfectly within my rights to do so and sell it. Ever heard of something called Ubuntu and some of the more recent iterations of Linux. They are very, very, very windows Vista like in functionality. I'm serious.
as for clicking on a EULA, that is crap and always has been. You can't force contractual agreement by law without a signature or a witness. Clicking on a button isn't a contractual agreement. Also, You can't sell software licenses to personal end users either. You either sell the whole software or you don't. This is something that microsoft has been trying to do for a long time and has been losing the battle with everytime. A license means that at any point they can take the license back if you don't fulfill the agreement for the license.
For example, if I am running a business and buy a bulk Vista license from microsoft for 500 computers for a special deal. I can install microsoft software on up to 500 computers I own in accordance with the license agreement. The agreement may be for a one time lump sum or even a re-occurring charge. Either way, I must abide by that. If I install software on 501 computers and microsoft finds out, they can take back ALL licenses and sue me for breach of contract among other things. I can't sell extra licenses out either unless the original agreement I made allows that for example.
Now that scenario doesn't work for personal home users. Not at all. You buy a KEY that allows you to activate an operating system, but that key is YOURS. Which means I can use it, give it to someone else, sell it, or dispose of it. The key belongs to me once I pay for it. Get it? Vista itself is totally free for a personal end user. This is why if you obtain the software by downloading it you can install it and use it for 30 days. However, if you want to continue using it, it take s a key to buy. Microsoft can care less how you obtain their actual operating system software right now because all they sell are keys to end users.
I hope I'm making myself clear here.
As for the claim earlier about lawsuits between Intel and AMD... Sheesh, don't go there. Here's an excerpt from wiki
Basically, Intel tried to sue AMD for reverse engineer the 8086 Intel processor and LOST.
Later Intel tried to Sue AMD over the microcode such as 3D Now! and SSE instruction sets. Guess what? They lost those law suits as well.
Basically, reverse engineering is perfectly legal.
Now, corporate espionage and actually stealing the source code isn't. It does happen quite often. Another typical occurrence is someone working for a company leaves the company and forms their own using knowledge gained from the last company to become new competition. This is not legal until a certain time frame has passed, usually about 5 years if memory serves me right.
Basically, the point is moot. Free servers are NOT illegal. Never have been and never will be.
Did i insult you or something? I still stand by my statement. It's blizzards product.
If you are complaining that you can't see all the content because its too long then this game is not for you. Tough.
You've made one thing perfectly clear: you're an idiot with no concept of how the real world operates.
Can't sell licensing to private end users? What? The EULA doesn't mean anything? Huh?
Just because you THINK something should operate a certain way doesn't mean it DOES. Blizzard will hold you to the EULA you agree to every time you start the game. Failure to adhere to it can, and will, result in your account being banned. The act of playing World of Warcraft in and of itself is an acceptance of the EULA.
Once again, read what I said. I said that the functionality is not what Blizzard is fighting. You can't copyright code methods. That's already been fought. Blizzard is fighting people who are cloning the live WoW servers, down to the quest. Anything in WoW, from weapon names to NPC names to quest text and boss encounters, is copyrighted. Taking that and recreating it IS against the law, whether you want it to be or not. The act of connecting a game to a server obviously cannot be patented or copyrighted. The story, characters, and specifics of said game, however, can.
Unless Blizzard specifically gives license for people to create copies of the WoW world, it is illegal. Hence the DMCA take-down notice.
To address your misconceptions about software...it definitely would NOT be legal to reverse engineer Microsoft Windows and resell it as your own. While it is true that Microsoft cannot prevent you from creating a product that LOOKS or ACTS like Windows, you CANNOT create a product that IS Windows. This is the difference you are failing to see. These third party servers are being targeted because they are a literal copy of WoW, not because they work with the WoW game client. If one of these servers created a whole new map, whole new story, entirely new character models, quests, and items, while still using WoW client to connect, then Blizzard would have a tough time shutting it down...however, modification of the game client in that respect more than likely is against the EULA just the same as playing on third-party servers.
Once again, Blizzard is fighting the use of their IP by third parties. This does NOT mean they are attacking the server software. It means they are attacking people who are cloning the WoW world.
To this...get your facts straight. AMD reverse engineered Intel's microcode for the x86 instruction set and started selling processors. Intel sued and the two settled out of court and AMD licensed the technology. That license will expire within the next few years, and at that point, AMD will NOT be able to produce x86 instruction set CPUs. Reverse engineering something and producing an equivalent product for profit is NOT legal.
eggrolls
Senior member
- Oct 11, 2006
- 268
- 1
- 76
The private server essentially "activates" the WoW client software. The client is non-functional without interacting with a server, which provides an "activation". Just like Windows is supposed to be non-functional when not activated. (Microsoft has some leniency here, but that's not the point.)
You say that if the code activates software written by the coder, it is legal. But the WoW client is written by Blizzard, not the coder of the server emulator. So if server emulators provides the missing key to make Blizzard's client functional, then they're... illegal?
HumblePie
Lifer
- Oct 30, 2000
- 14,665
- 440
- 126
Uhh.. no, on several accounts. You can not sell licensing to end users without getting a contractual agreement. A contractual agreement MUST BE SIGNED. I know there was a similar court case on this recently, and I'm too tired to look it up at the moment, but it is true. The definition of a private end user though is someone purchasing software off a store shelf and thus not signing anything. You can not do licensing agreement with end users at all without a signature. I don't care how many times you want to disagree with that statement but every time you do then you are absolutely wrong.
As for the EULA, it is agreement for accessing servers they own and paying for an account. They can put whatever they want in there, but all they can hold you to is that. Blizzard can actually write in the EULA that to access the WoW Blizzard servers you must hand over guardianship of your first born to them. Yep, they can put that in there and it wouldn't mean a thing like half the other stuff that typically shows up in EULAs. That's why if you actually READ Blizzard's EULA you find out it is all about rules pertaining to USING their servers and how to behave while using those servers. Yes, Blizzard can ban you at anytime because they servers are THEIRS, but the client software is yours. Period. Get the picture.
As for the windows analogy. Wrong again. You can reverse engineer windows and resell it. You can't call it windows or your company microsoft, because those are TRADEMARKED, but you can call it whatever else you like and say it is an operating system with Windows Vista like functionality. Perfectly legal.
Also, you are missing again the problem with the free servers. The Server software has NOTHING to do with the game maps, characters, quests or anything else. All that information resides on the client, which is once again purchased and owned by end users. The free emulators are NOT copying Blizzard's code in anyway shape or form. The server software only typically tracks user interaction with other users and the npcs of the game. As stated already and to reiterate, all graphics, music, story, characters, quests, and what you SEE when you play WoW is part of the client software. Now can you use server software to influence and change client software. You betcha and most do by registering a Pyroblast a 50,000 damage hit instead of a 2,000 damage hit for example. Again, the actual ability is in a file on the client, and the server either acts to give back a different packet of information, or when starting up, rewrites that file.
Again, free servers are NOT reverse engineering the client software which is owned by the client, and to which the contents are trademarked by Blizzard. They are emulating the server interaction with the client software.
As for the AMD/Intel litigation.. just read, because you are wrong drebo.
PDF to litigation list between AMD and Intel.
You have things all wrong. They are NOT sued over reverse engineer. Ever. I have no idea where people keep spouting this crap.
Basically, AMD originally was licensed by Intel to create clones of their x86 CPU's. Which they did up until the 486, when they decided to make their own. AMD had actually made two different 486 CPU's at that time, one with Intel microcode and one with their own after the break of the contract. Intel sued for breaking the contract, not for reverse engineering. They never even won that lawsuit. The only lawsuit Intel has ever won over AMD is the trademark infringement one over calling their microcode MMX the same as Intel's.
Keep telling yourself that buddy...
Do you play on "free" servers?
Not to mention that people charge small fees for certain perks on some "free" servers.
PingSpike
Lifer
- Feb 25, 2004
- 21,765
- 615
- 126
I don't really see how blizzard has much of a legal leg to stand on if the server code is totally reverse engineered stuff. The only legal point against it is the EULA in the client software really, which likely wouldn't hold in court (like all EULAs) and really wouldn't pertain to the server operator since they aren't necessarily even running the client software. (In practice, I'm sure they are)
All they have to do though is just send out lawyer letters...the servers are run by cheapasses for cheapasses...they aren't going to go toe to toe over blizzard and its cash piles with lawyers sitting on top of them.
I'm kind of surprised they were able to reverse engineer the software to any useable level though. But I don't play WoW so maybe its more simple then it seems.
Terrible shoe-horned car analogies aside, a very similar real world example seems to be SAMBA...a reverse engineered protocol that is open source. Last time I checked, Microsoft hasn't had any luck DMCAing that...they haven't even tried to my knowledge.
All they have to do though is just send out lawyer letters...the servers are run by cheapasses for cheapasses...they aren't going to go toe to toe over blizzard and its cash piles with lawyers sitting on top of them.
I'm kind of surprised they were able to reverse engineer the software to any useable level though. But I don't play WoW so maybe its more simple then it seems.
Terrible shoe-horned car analogies aside, a very similar real world example seems to be SAMBA...a reverse engineered protocol that is open source. Last time I checked, Microsoft hasn't had any luck DMCAing that...they haven't even tried to my knowledge.
HumblePie
Lifer
- Oct 30, 2000
- 14,665
- 440
- 126
It's actually somewhat easy to reverse engineer the server code for MMO's.
Set up a routing computer between a client and the blizzard servers. Then capture the packets being sent back and forth. Monitor your clients actions and the servers responses. Figure out how to write code that gives back those responses that the client is expecting. Bammm! Reversed engineered.
and no, it is not illegal. And no, even charging and usage fee to use a "free" server isn't illegal either. The EULA for WoW only dictates the license agreement for your online account with Blizzard and how you are to act in regards to their servers. It legally has nothing about the client software.
Set up a routing computer between a client and the blizzard servers. Then capture the packets being sent back and forth. Monitor your clients actions and the servers responses. Figure out how to write code that gives back those responses that the client is expecting. Bammm! Reversed engineered.
and no, it is not illegal. And no, even charging and usage fee to use a "free" server isn't illegal either. The EULA for WoW only dictates the license agreement for your online account with Blizzard and how you are to act in regards to their servers. It legally has nothing about the client software.
HumblePie
Lifer
- Oct 30, 2000
- 14,665
- 440
- 126
for those wanting to read the LEGAL court decision on this very issue, I finally tracked them down. There have been several cases, and the latest one I remembered was eAthena versus Gravity over Ragnorok online. Another older one was over UO with UOX server emulation. In all cases, the emulator won out so long as it was code that was not copied from the original. Meaning it had to be reversed engineered.
Wiki on the subject
Yes and no.
They are apart of the client software. It's just like when you buy a book. Say you go out and buy a Terry Brooks book. The character and story are HIS, but the book is yours. Meaning, you can't write that book word for word and call it yours and try to sell copies of it. That's illegal. However, you CAN resell the book you bought or use it in any other manner like loaning it out or using it to figure out how to write a novel.
With WoW, the CLIENT SOFTWARE is yours. You can use it or not as you like so long as you don't try to sell it as your own. The server software does not have ANY of the client crap in it. Servers display no graphics, make no sounds, and print no text. They aren't messing around with Blizzard trademarked or copyrighted material. They are just emulating functionality of server code.
If you read the link above, you'll see the only times companies have a legal leg to stand on when they try to sue "free" servers is when those servers are offering to let people download the client software. That's a big no no.
Wiki on the subject
Yes and no.
They are apart of the client software. It's just like when you buy a book. Say you go out and buy a Terry Brooks book. The character and story are HIS, but the book is yours. Meaning, you can't write that book word for word and call it yours and try to sell copies of it. That's illegal. However, you CAN resell the book you bought or use it in any other manner like loaning it out or using it to figure out how to write a novel.
With WoW, the CLIENT SOFTWARE is yours. You can use it or not as you like so long as you don't try to sell it as your own. The server software does not have ANY of the client crap in it. Servers display no graphics, make no sounds, and print no text. They aren't messing around with Blizzard trademarked or copyrighted material. They are just emulating functionality of server code.
If you read the link above, you'll see the only times companies have a legal leg to stand on when they try to sue "free" servers is when those servers are offering to let people download the client software. That's a big no no.
Except your wiki link points to the exact issue which could be a cause of contention and involves the DMCA (they were DMCA take down notices) and that is that the server authenticates the client and acts as a method of DRM. That argument did win according to the wiki link.
HumblePie
Lifer
- Oct 30, 2000
- 14,665
- 440
- 126
Blizzard beat BnetD in a lawsuit over anti-piracy, not over reverse engineering. they sued over many things, including reverse engineering but ONLY won damages over the anti-piracy clause. That is because Blizzard's Battlenet authenticates purchased software with a CD key to prevent piracy. The emulated server software trying to compete did not and really could not authenticate client software. The reverse engineering isn't illegal, and this clause only affects servers in the US due to the inclusion of the anti piracy clause in the DCMA. Battlenet emulation servers outside the US that allow reverse engineering to be legal are still perfectly legit.
The thing is, WoW does not use CD keys or anti piracy because the only way originally to play before free servers was by making an account on their servers. Since there is no authentication of purchased software done by the Blizzard servers for WoW software, then emulation server software isn't breaking any rules either by not preventing piracy of client software. See the difference?
The thing is, BnetD didn't fight smart enough, it's like what happened when Marvel sue City of Heroes over the fact that players could use the game engine in City of Heroes to create characters that infringed upon their copyrights and trademarks. In that lawsuit, Marvel lost, because there is no way for NCSoft to control what people do with their products. It's like Marvel Comics trying to sue "Linen and Things" because people can buy fabrics from them to make customs of Marvel heroes and thus infringe upon Marvel's copyrights. That's ludicrous. If BnetD had appealed over the fact that they can't control the piracy of clients connecting to their software and urged users to ONLY use client software that had been authenticated first by Blizzard before using their services, then that would more than likely won them the case. Put frankly, their lawyer sucked for not seeing that. Then again, when the lawsuit was filed, DCMA was new an the lawyer may not have seen that aspect of the law.
As for free WoW servers, the borderline and servers that are illegal are ones that either allow free client downloads or client patches. Additional patches to the game only come from Blizzard as part of the account service subscription. By providing client side patching, which some do, of content made by Blizzard is in violation of law. But so long as they don't do that, then there is nothing Blizzard can do.
The thing is, WoW does not use CD keys or anti piracy because the only way originally to play before free servers was by making an account on their servers. Since there is no authentication of purchased software done by the Blizzard servers for WoW software, then emulation server software isn't breaking any rules either by not preventing piracy of client software. See the difference?
The thing is, BnetD didn't fight smart enough, it's like what happened when Marvel sue City of Heroes over the fact that players could use the game engine in City of Heroes to create characters that infringed upon their copyrights and trademarks. In that lawsuit, Marvel lost, because there is no way for NCSoft to control what people do with their products. It's like Marvel Comics trying to sue "Linen and Things" because people can buy fabrics from them to make customs of Marvel heroes and thus infringe upon Marvel's copyrights. That's ludicrous. If BnetD had appealed over the fact that they can't control the piracy of clients connecting to their software and urged users to ONLY use client software that had been authenticated first by Blizzard before using their services, then that would more than likely won them the case. Put frankly, their lawyer sucked for not seeing that. Then again, when the lawsuit was filed, DCMA was new an the lawyer may not have seen that aspect of the law.
As for free WoW servers, the borderline and servers that are illegal are ones that either allow free client downloads or client patches. Additional patches to the game only come from Blizzard as part of the account service subscription. By providing client side patching, which some do, of content made by Blizzard is in violation of law. But so long as they don't do that, then there is nothing Blizzard can do.
eggrolls
Senior member
- Oct 11, 2006
- 268
- 1
- 76
It might not contain sounds or graphics, but it definitely contains a lot of text. Text including monster names, item names, item stats, npc spawn points, npc waypoints, spells, enchantments, damage formulas, armor formulas... the list goes on. This information is contained within a database. I suppose the emulator can be coded without a database, but no private server can run only with an emulator with no database.
Do you think the server merely links a bunch of clients together? Even with ZERO clients connected, the game world is still functional. NPCs are still there, doing what they we're programmed to do, with the names, spells, quests, and loot tables that Blizzard wrote. Just because you aren't connected to the server to watch it doesn't mean it isn't happening. How NPCs behave are calculated by the server, and the database needs to contain names, waypoints, stats, etc. in order to make that work. Suppose that the last human player on the server disconnects while NPCs of two different factions are fighting. Guess what... they will still be fighting with no clients connected. Why? Because the information for this is in the server database. It is not determined by clients.
In order to connect to a private server, you need to modify at least one file in your WoW client directory.
from what I've been able to piece together, an update to the WoW client included in wrath of the lich king gave the client the ability to "phone home" to blizzard every ip that the client connects to. If the ip doesn't match a blizzard official server, it's redflagged.
From what I can tell, if you don't install the update to wrath, the client won't have this ability, and some low-key 2.4.3 or eariler version private servers should be able to slip under the radar.
From what I can tell, if you don't install the update to wrath, the client won't have this ability, and some low-key 2.4.3 or eariler version private servers should be able to slip under the radar.
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