Blazing The Trail For Female Programmers

[GreenMeters]

not all of which can be explained by culture.

Why can't it? How is the historical view of inventors supposed to rule that out? Do you accommodate for the lack of educational opportunities for women in those cultures? In fact, do you have any evidence that the gender ratio for inventors is skewed in the first place--and if so, does it only appear if you count things like war machines to be inventions, but not household tools?

 

[Charles Kozierok]

Has there ever been a society in which most of the inventors/designers were women? I know in today's PC culture we're all supposed to think the only inate difference between men and women is in the plumbing, but the facts suggest differences much deeper than that, not all of which can be explained by culture.

I'm sorry, but I find this reasoning hard to take seriously. If there's never been a society in which most inventors are women, it's because there's never been a society where women were the ones who prioritized careers and were primary breadwinners, while men were expected to stay home and care for the family.

That is entirely a social issue caused indirectly by differences in "plumbing".

 

[Mursilis]

I'm sorry, but I find this reasoning hard to take seriously. If there's never been a society in which most inventors are women, it's because there's never been a society where women were the ones who prioritized careers and were primary breadwinners, while men were expected to stay home and care for the family.

That is entirely a social issue caused indirectly by differences in "plumbing".

Let's look at this in the context of another fact regarding differences between the sexes - violent crime, especially murder. Depending on the society, males are anywhere from 2 to 10 times more likely to kill someone. Is this innate, cultural, or a mix of both? Has there ever been a significant (that is, not just one small tribe) society in which the women were more violent than the men, in general? I certainly haven't heard of one, but that doesn't mean they don't exist.

 

[smackababy]

Let's look at this in the context of another fact regarding differences between the sexes - violent crime, especially murder. Depending on the society, males are anywhere from 2 to 10 times more likely to kill someone. Is this innate, cultural, or a mix of both? Has there ever been a significant (that is, not just one small tribe) society in which the women were more violent than the men, in general? I certainly haven't heard of one, but that doesn't mean they don't exist.

I think a big part of this is genetics. Men are genetically the hunters and warriors of the human race. They are bigger, stronger, and expendable. In a tribe a single male can continue the population of tribe and impregnate 100s of women. A single woman, on the other hand, can not do this and the species would be in danger. Early societies were based on this concept and men went from hunters and warriors to farmers and builders. Women's role generally remained the same, care of the offspring.

The modern culture is very young compared to the evolution of human societies. Even in recorded history of man, that is a small section of the vast history of the species.

 

[GreenMeters]

There's an established link between testosterone and aggressiveness. There's no such established link between testosterone and inventiveness.

 

[jaqie]

I forgot where it was but there was this religious place/country where the leaders banned TV and internet until just recently (A few years ago) and since it has integrated into their culture violence and such has skyrocketed, before there was basically none male or female.

I posit that without societal encouragers neither sex is violent naturally, and this place is a great case study for that.

 

[Mursilis]

There's an established link between testosterone and aggressiveness. There's no such established link between testosterone and inventiveness.

And I never said there was. It's never been my theory that women lack the intelligence to create/invent/design objects; rather, that they lack the desire (with some exceptions, of course - Madam Curie is one). And I'm speaking strictly of engineering and technology; history shows significant participation of women in the creative arts.

It's always been my experience, for example, that tech and automotive forums online are male-dominated. We could say that's all just cultural, but as the Western world becomes more egalitarian, I'm still not seeing tons of women suddenly start obsessing over tweaking their engines or overclocking their PCs.

This is one of those taboo topics where if you start asking questions like what's innate and what's cultural, people start assuming you have some hidden agenda of getting women back into the kitchen or something. Such assumptions aren't helpful.

 

[Mursilis]

I forgot where it was but there was this religious place/country where the leaders banned TV and internet until just recently (A few years ago) and since it has integrated into their culture violence and such has skyrocketed, before there was basically none male or female.

I posit that without societal encouragers neither sex is violent naturally, and this place is a great case study for that.

I think at least some of the studies which suggest males have a greater propensity toward violence predate TV and the internet, but I don't have time to find them now. Maybe others do, or can prove me wrong.

 

[GreenMeters]

And I never said there was. It's never been my theory that women lack the intelligence to create/invent/design objects; rather, that they lack the desire (with some exceptions, of course - Madam Curie is one). And I'm speaking strictly of engineering and technology; history shows significant participation of women in the creative arts.

It's always been my experience, for example, that tech and automotive forums online are male-dominated. We could say that's all just cultural, but as the Western world becomes more egalitarian, I'm still not seeing tons of women suddenly start obsessing over tweaking their engines or overclocking their PCs.

Given the anonymizing ability of online forums, how do you know how many women are participating? How many might be leaving their gender unstated to avoid unwanted sexual attention (look at the fiasco around the I Fucking Love Science group on Facebook)? And beyond that, what do niche topics like engines or overclocking have to do with careers in science and technology? Just because some engineers are members of those communities doesn't mean it's at all a widespread trait of STEM workers in general.

 

[smackababy]

Given the anonymizing ability of online forums, how do you know how many women are participating? How many might be leaving their gender unstated to avoid unwanted sexual attention (look at the fiasco around the I Fucking Love Science group on Facebook)? And beyond that, what do niche topics like engines or overclocking have to do with careers in science and technology? Just because some engineers are members of those communities doesn't mean it's at all a widespread trait of STEM workers in general.

Because in certain areas of the STEM industry (programming in general) the amount of women in the field is very low. We know this. Quite a few of us work in this field and have noted there are very few women. College classes for such fields are nearly devoid of women. These types of jobs are not culturally taboo for women to get into, such as automotive repair. There are women doctors and surgeons at growing rates, however, that growth is stagnant in the computer science field. Why?

Overlocking is a great example. The majority of people involved in communities around overclocking are men. Sure, there are women, but not a lot of them. Look at Anandtech. The amount of women here compared to men is very low. Even if 1 out of every 10 women disclosed their sex, the ratio is still vastly skewed to favor men. Anandtech isn't a culture full of people who are against women or sexually harass them; at least, as far as I know and can tell. Why wouldn't the seek to explore such technology related hobbies?

 

[irishScott]

You're working through the problem completely backwards. Women are paid less because their work is valued less, and their work is valued less, not due to its objective quality, but due to a combination of in-your-face sexism (the "chicks can't program" brogrammers and managers) and bigoted but pervasive cultural expectations.

Maybe that used to be the case or is a dying trend. I'll admit that I'm still just a senior in college, but I know more than a few women who have graduated and gone on to work in STEM fields, and none of them have complained. Given that I'm attending a major university and many of my classmates are likely representative of those who will soon be entering said workforce. None of them have any of the traits you're describing. I think more about some pompous, frat-boy asshole business majors I know, reading your posts.

Also I have a fairly irregular academic record, I've been going to college off and on since age 18 and am now 25, and in those 7 years of classes I've noticed something interesting. In the 200/entry-level EE and CE courses, the percentage of women has more than doubled since I went through them. However, once we get to the sophomore/junior level "decision" courses (a course that's so hard only the committed make it through), most of them drop out, switch majors, and we're back to 10% or so.

In addition, I had a good Software Engineering internship at a household-name defense contractor and was actually fairly involved with the team I was attached to, which included several women. I never witnessed nor heard about any sexism of any variety.

As for "boys' club mentality", well yeah. Care to explain to me how a profession that's close to 90% of one gender doesn't develop such a mentality? If I wanted to work in a hair salon, I'd fully expect a "girls' club mentality", but being a male I'm not entitled to bitch about such things for no reason.

 

[jaqie]

Anandtech isn't a culture full of people who are against women or sexually harass them; at least, as far as I know and can tell. Why wouldn't the seek to explore such technology related hobbies?

Incorrect. There are a hell of a lot of posts here which are blatantly sexist and just plain denigrating to women, and it has caused me to not even look at these forums for most of the time I have had an account. This is the same across all the tech forums except for one I visit, which is now a tiny niche community, the 2cpu forums.

Most of the time when I come here to check on threads and posts, I immediately think and feel I need to put my "armor on" and expect to see yet more of the above crap toward women, thinking "what kind of crap am I going to have to read through today to get to the real content?" to prepare myself for the onslaught.

 

[smackababy]

Maybe that used to be the case or is a dying trend. I'll admit that I'm still just a senior in college, but I know more than a few women who have graduated and gone on to work in STEM fields, and none of them have complained. Given that I'm attending a major university and many of my classmates are likely representative of those who will soon be entering said workforce. None of them have any of the traits you're describing. I think more about some pompous, frat-boy asshole business majors I know, reading your posts.

Also I have a fairly irregular academic record, I've been going to college off and on since age 18 and am now 25, and in those 7 years of classes I've noticed something interesting. In the 200/entry-level EE and CE courses, the percentage of women has more than doubled since I went through them. However, once we get to the sophomore/junior level "decision" courses (a course that's so hard only the committed make it through), most of them drop out, switch majors, and we're back to 10% or so.

In addition, I had a good Software Engineering internship at a household-name defense contractor and was actually fairly involved with the team I was attached to, which included several women. I never witnessed nor heard about any sexism of any variety.

As for "boys' club mentality", well yeah. Care to explain to me how a profession that's close to 90% of one gender doesn't develop such a mentality? If I wanted to work in a hair salon, I'd fully expect a "girls' club mentality", but being a male I'm not entitled to bitch about such things for no reason.

I have been in the industry for 8 years, 4 of which was in the military as a software developer, and even in such a male dominated field, there is little actual sexism or women hating mentality.

Incorrect. There are a hell of a lot of posts here which are blatantly sexist and just plain denigrating to women, and it has caused me to not even look at these forums for most of the time I have had an account. This is the same across all the tech forums except for one I visit, which is now a tiny niche community, the 2cpu forums.

Most of the time when I come here to check on threads and posts, I immediately think and feel I need to put my "armor on" and expect to see yet more of the above crap toward women, thinking "what kind of crap am I going to have to read through today to get to the real content?" to prepare myself for the onslaught.

I would imagine that happens in OT and possible P&N, but I refuse to participate in either of those subforum. Possibly the garage, but I have not noticed any other sexism against women. I've noticed sexism against men in the relationship subforum, but that is usually limited to a certain individual.

 

[Mursilis]

Incorrect. There are a hell of a lot of posts here which are blatantly sexist and just plain denigrating to women, and it has caused me to not even look at these forums for most of the time I have had an account. This is the same across all the tech forums except for one I visit, which is now a tiny niche community, the 2cpu forums.

Most of the time when I come here to check on threads and posts, I immediately think and feel I need to put my "armor on" and expect to see yet more of the above crap toward women, thinking "what kind of crap am I going to have to read through today to get to the real content?" to prepare myself for the onslaught.

At least part of that can be explained by the natural of male-male interaction, I would think. Have you ever observed a group of male friends playing video games, for example? The insults are nearly constant. And this is within a group of peers with, I'm assuming, some degree of mutual respect.

 

[jaqie]

At least part of that can be explained by the natural of male-male interaction, I would think. Have you ever observed a group of male friends playing video games, for example? The insults are nearly constant. And this is within a group of peers with, I'm assuming, some degree of mutual respect.

Actually, that I have found is less common than you would be indicating. There are some groups that do that, yes. It is not a societal norm in the extremes you seem to indicate, though. A little good natured chiding is fine.

 

[smackababy]

Actually, that I have found is less common than you would be indicating. There are some groups that do that, yes. It is not a societal norm in the extremes you seem to indicate, though. A little good natured chiding is fine.

In every instance of friendship and companionship I have witnessed between males, this exists. Just recently my friend posted a picture of people holding up signs, presumably of a service member returning. 5 or so of them stated something positive like "Glad you're safe", "Welcome back", etc. These were labeled with "Friends" and there was one individual labeled as "Best Friend" and his sign read something to the effect of "Too bad you didn't die, homo." Something that would seem offensive, however, in most male groups is the sign of a real friendship. There is always competition and 'hostility' in groups of males. I believe this is a reason women believe they are being treated unfairly in the workplace. Men are cutthroat and stab each other in the back. They do this to women as well, not because they are women, but because they will do what it takes to get ahead.

 

[GreenMeters]

Because in certain areas of the STEM industry (programming in general) the amount of women in the field is very low. We know this. Quite a few of us work in this field and have noted there are very few women. College classes for such fields are nearly devoid of women. These types of jobs are not culturally taboo for women to get into, such as automotive repair. There are women doctors and surgeons at growing rates, however, that growth is stagnant in the computer science field. Why?

We had "Math is hard" Barbie not that long ago, and you don't think there's any culture taboo about women getting into STEM fields?

Overlocking is a great example. The majority of people involved in communities around overclocking are men. Sure, there are women, but not a lot of them. Look at Anandtech. The amount of women here compared to men is very low. Even if 1 out of every 10 women disclosed their sex, the ratio is still vastly skewed to favor men. Anandtech isn't a culture full of people who are against women or sexually harass them; at least, as far as I know and can tell. Why wouldn't the seek to explore such technology related hobbies?

What makes overclocking a great example? Is the population of enthusiast overclockers even a particularly noticeable minority population of computer engineers or scientists? I can't recall having ever overclocked a rig, nor have any of the coworkers I sampled. And even for those CS/CE folks who have overclocked, be it regularly or not, how many are participating in OC enthusiast forums? You can get basic OC HOWTO info anywhere, rarely do you need forum support. Forums such as HardOCP are more often used for alpha-male posturing dick measuring contests. Have you never considered that it's the social aspects of the forum that are off-putting to women, not the ostensible topic?

 

[GreenMeters]

In every instance of friendship and companionship I have witnessed between males, this exists. Just recently my friend posted a picture of people holding up signs, presumably of a service member returning. 5 or so of them stated something positive like "Glad you're safe", "Welcome back", etc. These were labeled with "Friends" and there was one individual labeled as "Best Friend" and his sign read something to the effect of "Too bad you didn't die, homo." Something that would seem offensive, however, in most male groups is the sign of a real friendship. There is always competition and 'hostility' in groups of males. I believe this is a reason women believe they are being treated unfairly in the workplace. Men are cutthroat and stab each other in the back. They do this to women as well, not because they are women, but because they will do what it takes to get ahead.

It's one thing to do that with your best friend (though personally I wouldn't welcome back any friend with that particular sign, for a number of reasons); would you hold the same sign welcoming back a coworker who was out sick? Or do you think someone would be able to curb their hostile male nature in that case?

 

[GreenMeters]

Maybe that used to be the case or is a dying trend. I'll admit that I'm still just a senior in college, but I know more than a few women who have graduated and gone on to work in STEM fields, and none of them have complained.

Have you asked? Have you considered that the cultural factors that suppress women's participation in STEM fields would also suppress willingness to talk about it, particularly between differently privileged groups?

Given that I'm attending a major university and many of my classmates are likely representative of those who will soon be entering said workforce. None of them have any of the traits you're describing. I think more about some pompous, frat-boy asshole business majors I know, reading your posts.

It's human nature to clearly see the privilege that is held above him or her, but not to see the privilege he or she holds over someone else. So it's easy for "nerds" to see the flaws in frat-boy culture, since popular culture holds techy interests in contempt, but elevates as positive frat cultural aspects such as easy male-promiscuity, parties, large social circles, sports mania, and general alpha-male posturing. It's much more difficult for the privileged classes within STEM to see the advantages their given over others within the field.

Also I have a fairly irregular academic record, I've been going to college off and on since age 18 and am now 25, and in those 7 years of classes I've noticed something interesting. In the 200/entry-level EE and CE courses, the percentage of women has more than doubled since I went through them. However, once we get to the sophomore/junior level "decision" courses (a course that's so hard only the committed make it through), most of them drop out, switch majors, and we're back to 10% or so.

But this still doesn't answer whether they're dropping out of the program due to the material, or to the culture.

In addition, I had a good Software Engineering internship at a household-name defense contractor and was actually fairly involved with the team I was attached to, which included several women. I never witnessed nor heard about any sexism of any variety.

Why would you expect to hear about it? What good would complaining to an intern do, other than possibly let word get out that they're a "whiner" or a "troublemaker"?

As for "boys' club mentality", well yeah. Care to explain to me how a profession that's close to 90% of one gender doesn't develop such a mentality? If I wanted to work in a hair salon, I'd fully expect a "girls' club mentality", but being a male I'm not entitled to bitch about such things for no reason.

How? By listening to the less privileged members of the profession, but working to examine your own privilege, by supporting scientific investigation of biases within your field and supporting efforts to undo those biases.

 

[GreenMeters]

Actually, that I have found is less common than you would be indicating. There are some groups that do that, yes. It is not a societal norm in the extremes you seem to indicate, though. A little good natured chiding is fine.

Agreed. Couldn't imagine seeing that sign in my social circle.

 

[irishScott]

Have you asked? Have you considered that the cultural factors that suppress women's participation in STEM fields would also suppress willingness to talk about it, particularly between differently privileged groups?

You mean I have to ask my female friends to tell me their personal bullshit? What planet are you on? I get all of that as a matter of course. Bitching about work/dumb bosses/etc is hardly an overly personal topic of conversation.

It's human nature to clearly see the privilege that is held above him or her, but not to see the privilege he or she holds over someone else. So it's easy for "nerds" to see the flaws in frat-boy culture, since popular culture holds techy interests in contempt, but elevates as positive frat cultural aspects such as easy male-promiscuity, parties, large social circles, sports mania, and general alpha-male posturing. It's much more difficult for the privileged classes within STEM to see the advantages their given over others within the field.

Popular culture holds techy interests in contempt? Once again, what planet are you on/decade are you in? I've gotten nothing but respect for my field of interest, even in high school. Sure I was never a big social-lite, but I've never been derided for having an interest in computers.

But this still doesn't answer whether they're dropping out of the program due to the material, or to the culture.

No, but I don't see why it should be the culture. Campus, and the engineering department itself, is quite friendly where I am. Hell those of us in said classes like the fact that more women are taking them. I've done group projects with several guys and one women and we're all perfectly friendly.

Why would you expect to hear about it? What good would complaining to an intern do, other than possibly let word get out that they're a "whiner" or a "troublemaker"?

I would expect to hear about it because I'm sociable and people tell me shit. I don't expect a tearful, agonizing confession, but bitching about one's boss to one's co-workers is hardly unheard of.

How? By listening to the less privileged members of the profession, but working to examine your own privilege, by supporting scientific investigation of biases within your field and supporting efforts to undo those biases.

How about just being a rational, friendly human being? If I'm in a group of guys, I'm going to act like I'm in a group of guys. If I'm hanging out with women, I'll act roughly the same with some modification to language.



Seriously, are you in corporate Japan or something? You're painting a picture of this ridiculously stratified working environment where everyone is a self-aggrandizing, pragmatic asshole. If this is where you work, well I can say it's definitely not that way here, and I'd hope your experience is an isolated bubble.

 

[GreenMeters]

You mean I have to ask my female friends to tell me their personal bullshit? What planet are you on? I get all of that as a matter of course. Bitching about work/dumb bosses/etc is hardly an overly personal topic of conversation.

Systemic discrimination is a little different than personal bullshit.

Popular culture holds techy interests in contempt? Once again, what planet are you on/decade are you in? I've gotten nothing but respect for my field of interest, even in high school. Sure I was never a big social-lite, but I've never been derided for having an interest in computers.

Nothing but respect? That would be an extreme minority experience, in the US at least.

No, but I don't see why it should be the culture. Campus, and the engineering department itself, is quite friendly where I am. Hell those of us in said classes like the fact that more women are taking them. I've done group projects with several guys and one women and we're all perfectly friendly.

Friendliness does not mean that everyone's work was equally respected.

I would expect to hear about it because I'm sociable and people tell me shit. I don't expect a tearful, agonizing confession, but bitching about one's boss to one's co-workers is hardly unheard of.

See above. "My boss is a jerk; yeah, my boss is a jerk, too" is an easy conversation to have. "I face systemic discrimination that you don't, and you don't even see that it exists" is a little different.

How about just being a rational, friendly human being? If I'm in a group of guys, I'm going to act like I'm in a group of guys. If I'm hanging out with women, I'll act roughly the same with some modification to language.

So you're saying that we shouldn't listen to the less privileged groups within the field? That we shouldn't investigate systemic biases and work to undo them? Your going to act how you want (oh, sure, being friendly--but you'll decide what friendly means), and nuts to anyone who says there's a problem.

Seriously, are you in corporate Japan or something? You're painting a picture of this ridiculously stratified working environment where everyone is a self-aggrandizing, pragmatic asshole. If this is where you work, well I can say it's definitely not that way here, and I'd hope your experience is an isolated bubble.

U.S. education, including 10 years (undergrad through Ph.D.) in STEMS higher education. Twenty years work experience, based in the U.S. but with international collaboration. The privilege-stratified work environment is pervasive.

 

[irishScott]

Systemic discrimination is a little different than personal bullshit.

Except it usually manifests itself in terms of personal bullshit. Some of the women I'm talking about are pretty serious feminists, they're not the kind to be "systemically oppressed" and keep their mouths shut. Especially when talking to people on equal footing.

Nothing but respect? That would be an extreme minority experience, in the US at least.

Unless you count elementary and middle school, but everyone gets picked on for everything in those years.

Not that much of a minority from what I've heard from most of my classmates. The only ones who have mentioned such things are from rural areas. I'll admit a lot has changed in that regard even the last 10 years. Computers are literally in everyone's pocket now, and are no longer some remote academic niche. I've found anyone with an understanding of computers typically garners respect unless they're otherwise an asshole or a complete social introvert.

With the proliferation of computers has come an acceptance of computer nerds, and an influx of more "regular" (read: extroverted) people into the field.

Friendliness does not mean that everyone's work was equally respected.

Well I'd say that would have to do with the nature of one's management and not the nature of one's field of expertise.

See above. "My boss is a jerk; yeah, my boss is a jerk, too" is an easy conversation to have. "I face systemic discrimination that you don't, and you don't even see that it exists" is a little different.

Perhaps because no one would talk about "systemic discrimination" that way even if it did exist. Discrimination usually manifests itself, in general conversation, as personal bullshit that starts off exactly as you've quoted. My followup would be: "Really? How?" And there, right on step three, you'd hear of any overt "discrimination." Maybe step 4 or 5 if a little coaxing is required.

So you're saying that we shouldn't listen to the less privileged groups within the field? That we shouldn't investigate systemic biases and work to undo them? Your going to act how you want (oh, sure, being friendly--but you'll decide what friendly means), and nuts to anyone who says there's a problem.

Of course we should, that's why we have HR departments and anti-discrimination laws, but we shouldn't pander to women either. Nor should we uselessly try to force some vague, dry code of behavior like some middle-school dress code where you're not allowed to wear t-shirts with band names.

And yes, I do decide if I'm being friendly to someone or not, as anyone with an ounce of self confidence does. If I didn't I'd be emotionally subject to the judgment of every hobo who got pissed because I gave him a dime instead of a quarter.

If I, say, superficially objectify a woman to another guy, and one of my female co-workers overhears and reports me, I'm going to comply with HR to the letter, and then politely explain to her that meaningless, superficial banter is meaningless, superficial banter; and I would appreciate her treating any similar future banter as such and not whine to the teacher about it. (Not with such blunt language of course).

If women want equality in the computer-based work environment, then they're welcome to step up to the plate and demand better salaries, among other things. The private sector is not a welfare state, nor should it be. If it requires men to be socially durable and aggressive, I fail to see how making expectations lower for women is doing anything but reinforcing what discrimination there is.

U.S. education, including 10 years (undergrad through Ph.D.) in STEMS higher education. Twenty years work experience, based in the U.S. but with international collaboration. The privilege-stratified work environment is pervasive.

I think you're too smart and are over-thinking the issue, and judging by the posts of some others who work in the industry, it doesn't seem to be as pervasive as you think. I'm sure there's some legit sexism in the workplace, just like there is some legit racism in the workplace. The latter is dying out, and so is the former.

In the meantime, I fail to see what we can do about it other than not be part of the problem.

 

[GreenMeters]

If I, say, superficially objectify a woman to another guy, and one of my female co-workers overhears and reports me, I'm going to comply with HR to the letter, and then politely explain to her that meaningless, superficial banter is meaningless, superficial banter; and I would appreciate her treating any similar future banter as such and not whine to the teacher about it. (Not with such blunt language of course).

Blunt language or not, you're indicating that you'll act how you damn well please, and the woman's only recourse is to accept it. Thanks for the blindingly obvious example of male privilege. Boys will be boys, right? Amazing that you can post that and follow immediately saying that sexism in the workplace is dying out.

 

[irishScott]

Blunt language or not, you're indicating that you'll act how you damn well please, and the woman's only recourse is to accept it. Thanks for the blindingly obvious example of male privilege.

I would expect no more nor less of myself. Where exactly is my privilege in holding others to the same standards? Treat others as you would like to be treated, right? Oh wait, I guess in your book it's "treat men as you would want to be treated, treat women as though they are weaker and require your coddling." Who's the one with the male privilege complex again?

If two people are talking about something that offends me, I'll either directly engage them, ignore them, or move out of earshot. I won't attempt to twist the system to permanently shut them up just to keep those mean words from hurting my precious feelings. It's called being an adult and solving your own problems.

And yes, as far as things go inside my head, whether I can look myself in the mirror or not is what matters most to me. I try to be polite and respectful, I'm not above apology, and I listen to opposing arguments, but anyone who's going to try and pass judgement on my behavior needs a better reason than "you hurt my feelings."

Edit: Well, except for the GF, but that's a special case.